Hello all - back from away for a few days. Jon - was it you looking for grille fabric? Rob at Coherent Source Service has original grillecloth. Note that it got more sheer over time, so you might need a matched pair.
Re amps: What a trip - I have some potentially relevant experience with the AHB-2, Classe DR9 and Adcom GFA555 II. My setup includes 4 four pole knife switches plus locking bananas on their output jacks, driven by two pairs of amps, so that I can rig direct comparisons with simple switch throws and banana swaps. My test crossovers are outboard with no-solder access to separate driver outputs. Two CS2.2s are wired with two direct runs to each driver, swappable at the crossover outputs for comparing cable runs and the effects of cabling on the 3 different driving amps.
The GFA555 is a known to be decent mid-level amp. The DR9 performs above its price class. David Reich used Thiel CS3.5s as a design load. According to Atlantic Systems, the eastern US MacIntosh warranty service station, the DR9 output circuit is ’the same as’ the MacIntosh solid state circuit. Good amp. The AHB-2 is a THX licensed implementation of a class H amp regulated by a small Class A regulating circuit - new type of topology. I have appreciated discussion here of the AHB-2 among its peers. I agree with the observations that its bass leaves something to be desired. John Siau says that it is correct and "everything else" is bloated or loose or too big. That may be true. It is also true that B&W’s big bass would complement the AHB’s leaner than most bass balance. The AHB-2 is a winner, but might have deficiencies in the deep bass.
My test allows a CS2.2 woofer-only fed through a knife switch driven by the closely level-matched bridged DR9 or bridged AHB-2. The 2.2 crosspoint is 800 with first order rolloff, so there is musical content all the way up. Using a variety of sources, and with the absence of mid and highs, I consistently hear the following:
The AHB produces upper reaches which are cleaner, more detailed and more articulate. The lower reaches are drier, with the deepest transients sounding somewhat limp. The fundamental seems diminished. That diminishment might be in time-duration, but it sounds like transient imprecision and reduced level. Sounds like a hole in the bottom of the harmonic sequence.
One iteration of my test was with Dana Cunningham’s ’Live at Stone Mountain’ concert on a Yamaha concert grand, with Jeff Oster on horns and Max Dyer on Cello. I attended the stunning concert and assisted Dana’s evaluation of mixes and masters for production, so I feel comfortable with knowing the producers’ intentions. In this case as in general, I judge the DR9 to nail it much better than the AHB. The DR9 (bridged) delivers solid onset transients and well integrated fundamental bloom. I admit that the AHB reveals more nuance and space around the trumpet and cello. Similarly, the growl of the lower cello tones are authoritative with the DR9, and easily un-noticeable with the AHB.
Even if I accept Benchmark’s claim of ’rightness’, which is plausible given their company’s excellence, there remains the problem of the sonic jungle. Even for this live performance with minimal processing, the original musical event has gone through multiple stages of tweaking, and all of that tweaking used "normal" amplifiers with sonic signatures closer to (or actually being) the DR9 rather than the leaner, drier AHB.
Just for grins, my setup allows the following very appealing setup. The tweeter and midrange each has its own channel of the AHB. No contest winner over the GFA555 and noticeably more articulate and detailed than the DR9. The woofer can be instantaneously switched between a bridged DR vs bridged AHB. After all the note-taking and head scratching, I selected ’Flying over Water’, with Piano, Flugelhorn, Cello and Congas, for its beauty and complexity. Played full length with each bass amp, the DR9 always took me there and made me smile. The AHB left me in my chair analyzing the mix. Note the same result even with the SmartSub engaged; the sub-bass didn’t supply enough bottom for satisfaction.
I guess that’s my report for today.
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I'm not saying buy this gear for Thiel speakers obviously.Just curious about this brand.
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Perhaps, it’s just my middle class sensibilities, but I don’t think it should cost multiples of what ones speakers cost (or the price of a decent automobile) to power our speakers. |
Someone told me the 39k Leonidas integrated equals 100k worth of separates.
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^New to me. The website info is impressive. |
Anyone familiar with Pilium amplification ?
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There’s more. Without the ease of powering, I’d still prefer them. |
@unsound you prefer the 3.5 to the 3.6 just for the ease to drive factor or is there more? |
@thoft, The 3.6’s are a much more difficult speaker to power than the 3.5’s.
FWIW, I’m not the only poster on this thread that prefers the 3.5’s to the 3.6’s. You might feel differently.
$1500 is not unreasonable, but not a bargain either. |
Scratch it Thoft - a reference speaker for sure. |
@solobone22 I never liked Naim not my type of sound.I conquer Innuos is really good and very musical worth considering.You also have 432 Evo music servers that are starting to be very popular.Regarding amps there is a 3.7s owner on this forum that drives them with Accuphase amp.
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So uh there’s a set of 3.6 for sale next state over. They’re asking 1500. It’s itchy... |
I want to support prof's comments about using tube gear with the 3.7s. I've noticed than ronkent hasn't responded to this discussion yet, but I remember that he was very happy with the sound from his 3.7s when they were driven by a PS Audio BHK Preamp and BHK 250 power amp. My recent addition of a BHK Preamp (with tube input stage and MOSFET output stage) to my M700 monoblocks (class D, with power to spare) has opened up the soundstage and naturalness of the music being produced by my Thiel 2.2s. The 2.2 is definitely an easier load than the 3.7, though, so not every tube or tube/hybrid amp is going to be an ideal match for the 3.7. |
I've been looking at getting a streamer/server and have also heard concerns expressed about the Lumin streamers tending toward the dry/analytic side. I spoke to a dealer who sells both Lumin and Innuos gear, and the dealer recommended a Lumin streamer initially until I mentioned that I didn't want anything that might sound too bright with my Thiel speakers. The dealer's recommendation then changed to considering an Innuos Zen server/streamer because the sound was likely to be smoother and more musical. I'm sure that a Lumin can sound great in the right system, but it does make sense to buy from a source with a good return policy if things don't work out as planned. |
@thieliste How about the NAIM ND5XS2? Any experience with that one? |
@solobone22 Be careful Lumin is not very musical more on the analytical side, i would try the MSB renderer.A couple of years ago i made a shootout between Lumin S1 and Ayon S5, the later was much more musical, really didn't like the Lumin.
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@yyzsantabarbara Never heard any Luxman cd players, only familiar with C900u/M900u combo.Conrad Johnson Premier 350SA is known to be a great match for 3.7s but very difficult to find.
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I have an MSB Analog DAC feeding the Krell FBI. Debating spending 4K on the renderer and power supply upgrade or going say the Lumin T2 route. Think I'm going to do the 60 day demo on the Lumin. The MSB is being fed via usb from an Intel NUC.
Will look up the DACs mentioned.
The beauty of the FBI is you can bypass the preamp. I would love to try an Audio Research Ref 5 SE or a Conrad Johnson and then switch back and forth and see what they all sound like.
Does this ever end!!!! :-) |
I feel like going krell fpb-300 with Conrad Johnson tube pre amp or luxman tube pre amp. My dac will just be my 800 dollar fiio MP3 player with its line out function |
As I’ve mentioned before in this thread: My Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks, 140W/side, drove the 3.7s beautifully. It seemed like an "ultimate" combination of lush, organic sound, but with precision and plenty of power.
A friend who is a high end audio reviewer, and who actually wasn’t fond of Thiel speakers (felt they were always too bright when heard at shows/stores etc) was simply blown away by the combo. He felt "it just doesn’t get much better than that."
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@tmsrdg Not a trader but a long bag holder on a stock that was supposed to pay for this current audio system. Next year will be the year for that (which I say every year).
I do software development. I have a lot of servers on the cloud that run production services which I wrote and manage. So I need a lot of monitors to see activity across the cloud machines and services.
@thieliste I know you were not referencing me on the DAC comment but have you heard any of the top end Luxman DACs. There is a new DAC chip in the $16K D-10X SACD that is supposed to be great. I heard the previous top of the line Luxman SACD's DAC and it was great. This new chip is supposed to measure like a Mola Mola Tambaqui and sound like a R2R. I am waiting for Luxman to release a DAC only version with this new chip.
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The Thiel CS3.7 speakers have about 20 ours already in my house and it sounds totally different from the first couple of hours. Things have opened up with some explosive and fast sound. The soundstage is large and the great attributes of the AHB2 are being heard. A clear, almost like you are there with the performers. I do not get that feeling with other amps.
However, I think the amp is not the first choice for the CS3.7 if I had an unlimited selection of amps to choose from. I think more power would give the sound a little more grunt when it is called for. The top end is maybe a little harder than I want. Now this could be because the Thiel Coax driver plays harder than my KEF LS50. Or, my room is small and I am getting reflections (likely off my ceiling) that are smearing things up a little. My KEF's sounded a bit softer on top but they do not have the larger frequency response as the CS3.7 (in a small room). I am also playing it rather loud now since I am enjoying it. The DRC application that I am planning should be very interesting.
I can definitely say the AHB2 is a very very good amp on the Thiel CS3.7. It is not the best sound I have heard from this speaker but it is close and maybe the most clear. An ideal amp would be something that has the clear and silent background sound of the AHB2, with a bit more warmth, and a bit more power or grunt. The amps I listed before have some aspects of all of these attributes, though that AHB2 silent circuitry may not be duplicated by the others. I will test them out in house when I have the time, money, and energy. Right now I am just going to enjoy what I have since it sounds real good, a homerun in my books. Thanks Mr. Jim Thiel.
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@solobone22 My response was for you sorry lol.
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@yyzsantabarbara Big decision, I'm a big r2r ladder DAC fan therefore the 2 combos i have on my radar are either Aqua Formula xHD + LinQ or Totaldac d1-direct + d1 streamer.A guy that owned the Aqua combo and Totaldac d1-Twelve combo told me the Aqua was much better, i was shocked lol.The Aqua Formula xHD has some of the best price/performance ratio.
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@yyzsantabarbara Good stuff!
@thieliste What are you looking at for a streamer? I'm in the market as well. |
@yyzsantabarbara,Interesting office setup -- are you a trader?
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@unsound I was thinking of getting a hardware based DRC system in the past. I looked at Room Perfect, Space Optimization, Deqx (sp?), and ARC3. I remember Space Optimization was describing setups where you can place the speaker against a wall and have the sound processed as if the speaker was in the optimal positioning away from the wall. The DRC I will explore will be a software based solution running on my ROON Server (in another room). https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/what-is-accurate-sound-r923/A note about the
CS3.7
sound now. I am listening to the radio late at night at low volume. I seem to be hearing everything but just lower volume. I think that is a compliment to the speaker and the preamp (which I rave about). In the past, when I used to go DAC directly into the AHB2 I hated low volume listening. I felt like I was missing parts of the sound, not so with the HPA4 preamp. The CS3.7 is an added bonus for late night listening. Reproducing all that the preamp is feeding it. I posted some photos of my room, https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605 |
^There might be some advantages of close wall placement when using DSP. |
Some interesting changes with the AHB2 and the CS3.7 after some playing last night and repositioning. I did the following for todays listen.
1) I moved the speakers closer to the side wall, 26 inches from the center of the tweeter to the side wall. Much closer than the manual recommends.
2) I moved the speaker back closer to the front wall, now 20 inches from the wall.
Much closer than the manual recommends.
3) I moved the GIK Acoustic panel that absorbs the first reflection further up away from the speaker by about 6 inches.
4) I lowered the balance adjustment on my preamp from 2 units favoring the right speaker down to 0. I used 2 for the KEF LS50's in a slightly different placement. I am slight off-center in my desk sitting position so this balance adjust was needed. I listen with my back to the speakers. Not as bad as it seems, it is actually pretty amazing given what I have work with.
5) I moved some of my funky audio rack so that there was less surface area of the rack for the sound waves to hit. I hid some of this inside main rack.
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Even though this speaker is 8 years old, I think this speaker needed some warmup from not being used for a while. What I am hearing now sounds like a speaker breaking in, but doing it very fast.
The seller had a new speaker setup so the CS3.7 was likely
not used for a while, not sure about this.
This is the sound I am hearing tonight with the same tracks as last night. The Van Halen debut sounds explosive today, just as it is supposed to. It sounds much more alive and large. I can hear the performers with more detail and separation. The bass is still lean but more present, I can hear it better. The great attribute of the AHB2 is the ability to feel like the performers are in the room with you, this is starting to happen.
I also played Bob Marley Exodus tonight, which has a lot of bass in the recording and it sounded very good. In my scale from 1 to 100. Right now the AHB2 + CS3.7 is like a 85. This may get to a level of excellence with more break-in or adjustments.
I think I will need to give the speaker a few more days of playing to see if it gets broken in more and then do another round of repositioning. My placement from yesterday may have been better.
So at the moment. I have much more bass with some room reinforcement and the speaker waking up from storage. Though it is a lean sounding bass and not fat, I like the lean sound. The treble sounds a little harder than the LS50. Not bad but a softening or warming up of the sound would be idea.
I am starting to feel good about this setup. |
I would be interested in comparing the Benchmark ABH2 to the Bel Canto Ref600M's. Checking around to see if someone has one in the area. |
@catalysis, The Benchmark ABH2 doesn’t have RCA inputs to accommodate the RCA only outputs of the Thiel CS 3.5 ELECTRONIC BASS EQUALIZER. |
@catalysis The reason the AHB2 is a keeper is because it is an outstanding amp. In the top 3 of amps I have heard, I like silence. The fact that it works for me so well with the KEF LS50 is reason alone to keep it since I am not getting rid of the LS50.
My office is small, so some subs are physically not possible. I have heard the CS3.7 sound great with a different amp so I will do some investigation and get it right for me.
I forgot to mention that there maybe a new Purifi Class D amp (hear me out) with much bigger specs than the first iteration could be coming out soon. Now a few folks are raving about the Purifi modules like that review on SoundStageGlobal.com, comparing it with $40K amps. These Purifi amps are in the AHB2 price range and are also almost as silent. They however, have more power where the Thiel CS3.7 could use.
I just read a post by someone from Brazil with a CS3.7 that is expecting a future Purifi amp with 1200 watts at 2 Ohms. He was saying that would be great for his speaker. I think I really need to investigate these new Purifi modules before I go down the road of a Class A or AB amp.
There was some info by TomThiel a few days ago mentioning the AHB2's designers analysis of the various Thiel models and the suitability to the AHB2 or 2 AHB2 in mono. You maybe able to figure out the suitability of the CS3.5 from that post.
BTW - I had the DAC2 HGC into the AHB2 long ago and sold both. When I bought the HPA4 (or LA4) the DAC went up in quality a lot as compared to direct to amp. The Benchmark preamp is incredible, my favourite component from them. I have the DAC3B now but the DAC2 is just as good. |
@solobone22 Well i'm thinking of getting 3.7s for the second time and therefore this time i will purchase a used Diablo 300 with Gryphon cabling.Right now i'm looking at different options regarding DACs and streaming gear.Will keep you guys posted, this is going to be one heck of a rig.
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@thieliste The Gryphon Diablo 300 looks amazing. Have you heard it in your setup? I imagine used they still are expensive. I'd love to do a comparison between the Gryphon and the Krell. Will check around my area to see if anyone has one. The FBI at 104lbs is a pain to move though. |
2 questions for the group.
1. Where can I purchase proper speaker grill cloth for my CS1.2s? Is it the same for my CS3.6s?
2. One of my CS1.2s cabinet (Amberwood) is slightly faded from the previous owner positioning with sun exposure. Is there an easy solution such as rubbing on a stain to darken it?
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Hello guys,
to friends here with cracked concrete baffle issue I would suggest to use a professional sealant called MS polymer, some different producers around, for my professional needs I prefer Sikaflex brand but also other should be ok, just be sure about its composition not silicone but MS polymer. it does exist in black too, large flexibility and also has awesome bonding properties and long lasting against UV ray.
In my opinion this product can be a definitive solution for this kind of repair.
Enjoy music and keep safe. |
One of the midrange drivers on my CS2's has quit working. I removed it and measured an open across the terminals. Any suggestions on where to have this properly repaired?
Thanks.
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@yyzsantabarbara I'm following your AHB2 experience with great interest as I'm considering trialing this amp in my own system, which includes CS 3.5s and a Benchmark DAC2 HGC.
I've read comments about the lean bass of the AHB2, so I wasn't surprised to read of your similar thoughts.
I also, however, note that you consider the amp to be a keeper, so one imagines it has some other very redeeming features.
Appreciate you've just purchased the 3.7s, but I wonder if you've thought about adding musical dual subs to your system?
With a bit of careful setup, this would unquestionably address any perceived bass deficiencies and enable you to enjoy the plus points of the AHB2.
A couple of years ago, I stopped using the 3.5 bass equalizer and invested in a couple of decent dual subs. I've never looked back.
Anyway just a thought for you to consider.
Do keep us posted.
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If anyone is interested. The CS3.7 I got had some scratches on the top black shell. So I contacted Rob Gillum and he told my to use a semi flat black #1613. So last night I taped the speakers up with some great 3M plastic wrap and spray painted it with the following.
Krylon 1613 Semi flat black spray paint 12oz - $7.40
The shell looks brand new.
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yyzsantababara
Take your time dialing- in and massaging these loudspeakers into the space. Read back over this thread for Hot tips regarding CS 3.7 models.I spent considerable time with this incredible speaker. Appropriate room size is critical. Experiment and keep us posted on your progress.Van Halen - s/t is an excellent disc for testing any system. Have Fun!
Happy Listening!
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solobone22
Nice! score on the Krell FBI. Keep us posted as you massage this amp into your room/system.
Happy Listening!
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@yyzsantabarbara I had the same problem when i owned the 3.7s, drove them with a Classe CAP-151 couldn't afford a better amp at the time.The result was pretty disappointing, after 5 years i sold the speakers and gave the Classe amp to my brother.I know this time around i will not make the same mistake if i purchase again 3.7s i will be able to afford the best amp possible otherwise forget about the 3.7s.Krell FBI is awsome but very rare on the used market, easier to find Diablo 300.@solobone22 you are a lucky man, Krell FBI paired with 2.7s must be phenomenal please let us know how you like that combo.
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Well it was a car long journey to pick up my new Thiel CS3.7. A stop at IKEA for some kid shopping and a little driving day dreaming made it longer trip than expected.
I am testing the speakers out now in my small office (see virtual systems for some old photos). In my treated room with my Benchmark gear, specifically the AHB2. The speakers do not seem to hit as hard as I remember. It also does not sound that much better than my KEF LS50's with the same Benchmark gear (a match made in heaven). It has more bass but the sound seems a little inhibited. On a scale of a 100. If the LS50 is a 60 the CS3.7 with the AHB2 seems like a 75.
My room is not idea for a speaker like the CS3.7 but I am not getting any fatigue even though I am playing music a little louder than normal. Maybe my room is a bit dead.
Currently playing Van Halen debut. I can feel the bass notes hitting me but it does not seem that powerful. Now this could be an attribute of the amp. Some reviews of the AHB2 were mentioning that the bass tends to sound leaner. I think this sound is taking me back to my demo of the Magico A3 with a single AHB2 which I did not like. Though the CS3.7 sounds better than the A3 with the AHB2. The A3 was also in a much bigger room. Many factors that could be the cause of this difference.
Now when I demoed these speakers a decade ago with top end Classe gear it was a religious experience (a 99/100). The second best speaker demo I ever had (KEF Blade #1). This is not what I am hearing now. It sounds very good but not incredible. I know incredible is hidden in these speakers.
I am getting a microphone next week to do some measurements. I will work with Mitch Barnett from Accurate Sound to create some Convolution files (DRC) for this setup to run on ROON. I don't think that will fix what I hearing or not hearing since the room acoustic seem to be decent at the moment. The DRC will make the room acoustics to be excellent.
I have 3 amps that I thought I would look at if the AHB2 was not a good match for the CS3.7. The new CODA #16 maybe the best choice to match my HPA4 preamp since that amp is also very quiet (almost AHB2 level) and Class A for 100 watts. I need to research a bit more on that. The CODA #8 is a bit nosier but may be good enough at $6K. The Luxman m900u would also be great. Luckily I have no cash to spend and will use the AHB2 for some time and play around with DRC and placement.
The great thing is that the CS3.7 seems to work in my tiny room without DRC. Which was very unexpected. So the CS3.7 is a longer term keeper.
My 4 year old son was listening to Van Halen with me on the bean bag and passed out sleeping. He was not feeling it either.
BTW - I am keeping the AHB2. It is a great amp for a matching speaker. A shame 2 mono's do not work with the CS3.7
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Also picked up a pair of the Sound Anchors for the 3.6's. Rock solid foundation and I feel much better about them not tipping over as easily now. The Sistrum stands look great but my are they expensive! Anyone done a side by side with various stands? |
Aloha Folks! Been a long time and quite a bit has changed. One thing that hasn't is the love of music!
Picked up a Krell FBI that has been freshly checked over. This hooked up to 2.7's is another few notches up from a MSB Analog to Bryston 7BST setup. So much so I'm putting the Brystons up for sale. I went back and forth between the Krell and the MSB/Bryston setup and it is so much different for the better in my room with my musical tastes.
The Krell FBI is the one that is a FPB-300CX with a builtin preamp. |
My thiel system is the adcom 5800 with AudioQuest type 9 cables I’m planning on getting. The amp will change to a krell fpb 300 or luxman m700/900u in the future. |
Many moons ago, when a friend worked at high end shop, I helped deliver and set-up various things over a 6 year period. Like the 1.7s. I wouldn't mind finding a used pair at some point (I look from time to time. I have a couple of secondary systems in small/average sized rooms they would work very well in. They were rated at 4 ohms (3 minimum and 87db) like my MCS1 I use as a center channel and like the two pair of SCS2s I have as side and back surrounds. I use s receiver to drive the center and surrounds and it doesn't have an issue. They are certainly not as hard to drive as 3.7s or my old 7.2s (which were really tough). I would, however, get a decent amp if I got them as main channels. |
thoft
what other gear including cabling are you considering for your system?Which gear do you own currently?
Happy Listening!
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oblgny
Always good to see my New York Brother here. Nice suggestions.
Happy Listening!
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