thieliste
Excellent! Have fun audition gear.
Happy Listening!
Excellent! Have fun audition gear.
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,687 responses Add your response
I was mentioning getting a CODA #8 amp to power the CS3.7's. Well today I bought a used CODA CSib integrated that is maybe good for the CS3.7. I bought the integrated for my KEF LS50's and the new RAAL SR1a headphone amp that I will get sometime in 2021 (demoing at home now). I will put the CODA on the CS3.7 and compare with the 2 Benchmark AHB2's which will be my reference. I have a second AHB2 on order. |
@thieliste You need to hear the RAAL SR1a with the new RAAL HSA-1b headphone amp. The bass is great and the highs are tamed. It is a warmer headphone amp than my Benchmark HPA4. I tried the SR1a with my Benchmark AHB2 using the AMP INTERFACE (amp RAAL uses in shows and designed with) and it was too harsh. I was reading that people were saying the SR1a is bass shy and with the HSA-1b I don't feel that it is. I will say again that the SR1a sounds so much like my Thiel CS3.7, with a little bit more detail and a bit less bass. When I have to shut off the CS3.7, so my son can sleep, putting on the SR1a does not seem like a step down. The only issue is that I cannot work with these headphones. I stop and keep listening to the music, maybe this is because it is so new for me. |
| Post removed |
@yyzsantabarbara Congrats on the RAAL SR1a, i have demoed these headphones in 2019, they are indeed very special but not for everybody.I found them pnenomenal in the treble but not very good in the bass or nowhere near an Abyss 1266 Phi TC in that area.They are obviously the most open sounding headphones on the market but i still prefer a well balanced Thiel CS 3.7 system.Cheers |
On New Years eve here in California I am hunkered down and listening to a new headphone and new headphone amp that sounds so much like my Thiel CS3.7. Today, I managed to score demo units of the RAAL SR1a ribbon headphone and the RAAL HSA-1b headphone preamp/headphone amp. This headphone can be driven either by 2 channel amps, a special Schitt headphone amp ($800), or likely the very best combo, the RAAL HSA-1b (what I have now for demo). Why am I writing about this on the Thiel thread? I am posting this here because these beauties sound like my Thiel CS3.7. These headphones are supposed to be the most speaker like headphones in the world. I have to agree. they give a very nice forward sound and not the inside your head headphone sound. There is a rave review on AudiophileStyle.com on this headphone. Where the guy is saying is it good as his $60K Wilson speakers. I can actually see that. This is very much like my Thiel CS3.7. I have the Thiel's running great and these phones sound like it. Compared to my $3K Meze Empy headphones these RAAL SR1a blow them out of the water. I tried these headphones with my Matrix DAC, Benchmark preamp, and the Benchmark AHB2 amp and it was a little too strong on top. It was also a little underpowered. I am going to get a Halo May KTE R2R DAC for the Thiel system in the future and that will lower the high temperature from my Delta Sigma Matrix DAC I am using today. I also tested the AHB2 with my warm sounding Sony SCD-1 SACD player connect to my preamp which was connect to an AHB2. This sounded a bit like the HSA-1b but it was a little underpowered compared to the dedicated headphone amp (damn it cost $4k). This was a single AHB2 in stereo. These headphones slurp up all the current from the single AHB2. I have a second AHB2 coming next week (I hope) and I will try to test it out with close to 600 watts at 6 ohm. The dealer I got this from loves the HSA-1b headphone amp but he also says a pair of Bryson 4B-SST in mono putting up 600+ watts is better than a single AHB2. So these are very power hungry if you use a 2 channel amp. I am definitely getting the SR1a headphones but will think my AHB2's will also work with a warmer DAC. If I had the cash I would just get the HSA-1b to drive them. Happy New Year. |
Well I got my 3.6 in today. Ran them on the adcom. There’s a definitive grittiness with the newer thiel adcom combo that wasn’t there with the 3.5. I’ll probably keep the adcom for the 3.5 and start looking for a smoother amp. Parasound a21 or a21+ I think. Richard from parasound said that they will do fine with the impedance curve at my budget. |
Beetle - how did that Halcro amp weather the ages? Its circuit topology seems reminiscent of the BM AHB-2 in layman's descriptive terms. Indeed specs don't tell the whole story and harmonic distortion can be a particularly beast since low / even harmonics sound sweet and odd and highers sound non-musical. |
@tmsrdg re Thiel SI-1 (from 12/15) I purchased an SI-1 about two years ago to integrate a pair of JL Audio f112s with my 3.7s. It's in perfect working condition, and I have yet to experience any problems with it. Sounds like I'm lucky on that score, and hope that doesn't change. @tomthiel, it would be great if a repair option for the SI-1 does eventually arrive. The SI-1 replaced a PXO that was driving a single SS1. In my experience, both the PXO and the SS1 deliver perfectly (to my ears) seamless integration with no fussing around. However, the active SI-1 noticeably improves the mid and top end performance of my 3.7s relative to the PXO. The high end stays sweet to well beyond any volume I'm interested in hearing. At the time, I was concerned that switching from the SS1 to the JLAs would mess up the integration, but there's no sign of that audible to me. |
Just as a note of caution, the direct correlation between SINAD and overall sound quality for amps and DACs has not been established, and I would be careful not to believe everything that Audio Science Review says or implies. Over-interpreting small differences in distortion at levels well below 1% may not be the best way to choose an amp. Fortunately, the sound quality of audio gear has improved significantly in recent decades compared to the typical amps produced in the 1970's and 80's when Stereo Review's worship of ever lower levels of distortion prompted many audio engineers to design circuits that measured well (at least on standard measurements) but sounded bad. I certainly hope that we don't embrace a future that forgets what we learned in the past. Measurements of audio gear are important as part of the design process, but designing gear that actually sounds like real music to the human ear/brain should be the ultimate goal. |
Thank you all for the responses and especially for the link to the google doc. It gave me a lot to think about. Tom's point hits a little close to home ("fullness, richness, lushness, warmth"). The pursuit of such "ideals" has led me to consider B.A.T. and PS Audio for their promised "tube input stage". But is distortion really the goal? And how do I know I'm getting the "right distortion", haha. The consistent message I've seen is that Thiels (including my OG 2.3s) like current, so I've been looking in the 400+ wpc @ 4 ohms range. But the rears (OG PowerPoints), while still rated @ 4 ohm, have recommended specs more in the 100 wpc range. So maybe the most cost-effective (but kludgy and/or boring) option for me is to replace my pre-pro with a good AV receiver (Looking at Denon, possibly Anthem), use the onboard amps for the rears and possibly height channels in the future, and then just use the three still-working Krell amps from my old Home Theater Standard as the front three. |
That Benchmark system in TAS is my system, except I sold the DAC3B last week. I will buy it back later in 2021 since I already miss it. I also did a test with a single AHB2 and turned on mono operation to get more power. I then ran it on 1 CS3.7 speaker. I liked it a lot more since I got more bass and things seemed more energized. So I bought a second AHB2 that should arrive in a few weeks. @tomthiel The Benchmark preamp, preferably the HPA4 over the LA4 because of the bonus headphone amp. I hated headphones prior to getting the HPA4. The Benchmark preamps also make their DACs sound better because the volume control on the preamp is much better. The preamps are quieter than the DAC3. I am now thinking of trying out the RAAL SR1a ribbon headphone driven by 1 or 2 AHB2 amps (not the HPA4). RAAL used the AHB2 to develop the SR1a. BTW - I have at one time owned, DAC1, DAC2 HGC, DAC3 HGC, DAC3B, AHB2, HPA4 and all Benchmark interconnects and now speaker cables. I love this gear. |
Thielrules - thank you for posting that amp list. There is a fairly widespread belief among audio pros that audiophiles prefer distortion to provide qualities they call "fullness, richness, lushness, warmth", etc. I must confess that it took me quite some time living with the Benchmark AHB-2 to appreciate its lean directness as being correct. I now delight in its simple clarity and hear other amps as adding artifacts. I am using a PS Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre. It's nice, but PS gear lands pretty far down the list. I am coveting a listen to the Benchmark DAC/Pre. Is there a similar list of preamps? |
Questions about the proper amp for Thiel speakers come often up here. I would answer such a question by inquiring what is your standard and weakest link in the chain. I have yet the standard for myself to have a resolving chain of 16 bits or better, which translates to a thd+noise of each component better then 96 dB. With a streaming source of music or a high quality cd player, the (pre) amp becomes the weak link. Here is a link to a database of amplifier measurements by 3rd parties. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit?usp=sharing Benchmark leads the list and hypex based amps are well represented near the top. For the diy, the plate amps of hypex are a great and affordable option to have a complete digital chain from beginning to end. |
Hey thanks! I guess I wrote all of the above to think out loud, and what I'd really like to hear is opinions on current stereo amplifiers for 2.3s with an emphasis on music. It looks like the brands I'm familiar with (I've been out of the loop for 15 years, haha), Krell, BAT, Classe, all have current, hi-current offerings. But I see others, like PS Audio and Emotiva, that I've never heard of. |
Greetings all. I've read this thread over the last week, and have really appreciated the info and discussion. I'd love to hear your amplifier opinions, if you'd indulge some background info. Due to ongoing complications related to the plague, we've finished our basement and I've moved my desk down there. All of that inspired me to set up my audio equipment after five years of storage (we moved to this house 5 years ago. So... I have a 5 channel setup, a big tv, and a new couch is coming. We like TV shows and movies, but music is much more important to me. All this stuff (not the TV) was bought back in 2001 when I was excited about multi-channel SACDs and concert DVDs. Now most of my music comes from Apple Music (2 channel streaming, don't judge me) but I just ordered a Pink Floyd box set that comes with Blurays of some albums and live shows. Favorite music is all over the board, including Tool, Radiohead, Elbow, and Alice in Chains, but also modern jazz, classical guitar concertos, bluegrass, and more. I have 2.3s for the mains, an MCS1 for center, and 2 OG PowerPoints as surrounds (what we called "rears" 7.1 brought "back" speakers into the world). These are matched with a Onkyo PR-SC866, Krell Home Theater Standard and two SVS CS-Ultra subs running on a Crown K2. I have mild sensory processing disorder, and am very sensitive to treble "ringing" (think trumpets, violins, and similar audio icepicks). Audessey MultiEq has been a godsend in this area, as I've been able to use a rolloff curve that almost entirely solves the problem for me without feeling making things sound muffled or muddy to me (which just "turning the treble all the way down" used to do). OK, a lot of background info I guess (sorry). Just one more thing. I can only get three of the Krell's five channels to work. I haven't experimented a whole lot with it yet, but I did attempt to replace a fuse on one of the channels with no luck. I've looked into repair, but it seems Krell has had some trouble over the years and at best I'd be shipping this 100-pound monster away ($$) leaving me with almost nothing for a while. So right now I'm not running my subs at all, I have my 2.3s running off of the Crown K2, and my center and rears are running on the three working Krell channels. If I do nothing more, it already sounds "pretty darn good", but can't quite reach the heights I had with the setup at the old house playing, say, a Nine Inch Nails concert. I have an eARC adapter coming out of my TV that I'm using for source switching which works fairly well but feels like a band aid. So anyway, I'm looking at options and I want to maximize joy without being stupid. But I know that "reasonable" means something different to everyone. I want to give the Crown back to the subs. Option 1) I could replace the pre-pro with a good receiver, and use the three Krell channels for the L/C/R and the receiver amps for the rears and possibly some height channels. Or, Option 2) I could buy a nice stereo amp to drive the L/R and use the three Krells for center and rears. Option 3) I could replace the Krell with a new 5 channel amp, try to repair and sell it. Option 2 appeals to me. Getting a musical but powerful stereo amp to make music on the 2.3s sound as good as I can get them sounds like the most fun and potentially rewarding. But I don't know anything about amps and would love to discuss options with y'all. Thoughts? |
Actually it took three upgrades to make mine *perfect*, though the first one was just the ’basic’ upgrade of the time. I imagine by now it’s a labor of love, as Steve is past able to retire if he chose. He’s spent decades listening to the best passive discrete parts to mix and match into his existing circuit boards and amp topology, as you say, knowing exactly how to tailor his suit to fit us. Just a couple examples of ’business as usual’, as part of my middle-of-the-road (non-Thiel-specific) upgrade, he uses 10" of some massive Shunyata Copperhead AC power cable to just connect the rear AC input to the front panel power switch. 1" per channel of some sort of carbon fiber conductor to go from the WBT NextGen RCA input jacks to the circuit board. 4" of Van den Hul high-end speaker cable to go from the output transistors to the Cardas speaker terminals. And that was in 2006 as part of a B-level upgrade! The beauty is that for some time he *did* the mass production, dealer network, advertising, at least on a modest scale, and enough to have a long-running well-regarded set of products, that were a big bang for the buck as his designs allowed for modest parts to sound ’good enough’, and little money was put into cosmetics. A good design is still a good design, optimized by the parts and their integration. Just look at all the recycled vacuum tube circuits from the 50s and 60s that are used in today’s top gear with fully modern parts in the signal path and support circuits (power supplies, auto-bias, layout). It would seem he could extract a bit more by further optimizing his circuit board layouts 25+ years later, but that would be a question for Mr. McCormack to assess price vs performance, a calculation he’s always excelled at... It's this designing for the long haul I find similar to Thiel, and find this approach to be of personal value to me in the components I choose to make up my audio system as a whole. And other products of note I own... |
SMc has worked on my amp twice making upgrades. Both were very successful. I suppose one advantage is that Mr. McCormack will "tailor" an amp to fit your needs and purposes. Like a good suit, instead of buying off the rack, Steve will be sure you get what fits. I am not surprised that your amp did well in comparison with others. At this point, SMc upgrades are essentially a hand-crafted product/solution w/o the need for mass production, a large dealer network to support, and ad budgets, etc. They can focus on what sounds best rather than worry about all of the requirements of running a large and complex production and sales operation. If they hear something better, it does not require a big redesign or operational change. This ongoing R&D may eventually run its course and further improvement may no longer be possible given whatever limitations the original amps create. Sometimes one must start from scratch to do better. Tesla seems to be working on that angle. But for now, and into the foreseeable future, what SMc Audio does seems to work very well. Perhaps this is why and how SMc can compete with more expensive amps. |
yabe1951: others here have heard from me -- some years ago now -- of Steve McCormack thoroughly upgrading my DNA 0.5 to optimally drive my CS2.3s. A complete success, that was only bettered when I started using CS2.4s as I still do today. The same Plitron transformer in the smaller 0.5 makes for power doubling 125/250/500 wpc into 8/4/2 ohms, absolute stability into 1 ohm, an alleged 60A peak current. He put in a few other tweaks specific to my 2.3s, as well as his established upgrades he was using at the time for a 'revision B+ Gold' designation. Steve knows his design cold, and can optimize any of his amps for nearly any preference or load. My avatar is the internals of the reworked amp, if you can possibly make it out. This was completed in 2006, and just recently this amp, at a high-end audio shop, was the best-sounding amp of five modern $5k-$16k power amps, driving a pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. To me this is sort of old news, but your post confirms I shouldn't take what I have for granted! |
I have been happy with my long-time "Thiel friendly" McCormack DNA 1 (with SMc Audio upgrades). It provides sweetness and excellent midrange detail. Soundstage presentation is also 1st rate. Wide, very deep, and gives the impression of the music appearing to be at once a "whole" presentation with each instrument or voice being heard as completely distinct and apart from the others. The top end is articulate but not overly analytical or forward. The bass improved with the addition of the SMc Plitron transformer option, but this is no 100 plus pound monster amp. I would describe the bass as tuneful and accurate but slightly lacking in the chest-thumping slam and weight department compared with the really big amps with overbuilt power supplies and extra heavy-duty metalwork- Think Krell, Levinson, Moon, Pass, Classe & Bryston, etc. However, it does the double down trick with really impressive current capacity and drives the hell out of my 3.6es. https://www.stereophile.com/content/mccormack-power-drive-dna-1-power-amplifier-1992-measurements-pa... In addition, these amps can be customized by SMc Audio to fit your system or needs. Steve McCormack has many decades of knowledge (wisdom!) gained by experimenting, careful listening (to systems and customers), and refining a brilliant design architecture. In my experience, McCormack is an excellent pairing with Thiels of the 3 series and smaller variety. I do not know how a DNA 1 would drive the larger 6es & 7s, but for my 3.6es (3.7s here and unboxed but not installed) it is glorious. McCormack made some bigger amps that might do the trick on 6es & 7s or I suppose you could have SMc configure DNA monoblocks. I do not have audio memory long enough to completely recall the last time I heard Thiels with another amp. However, I do remember Classe as being very good, lush, and smooth sounding. I did hear 3.7es with an Ayre front end and amp that sounded a bit flat and emotionless, but that was a very long time ago in a demo room with 3.7s that might have been just out of the box. Anyway, you may want to give McCormack a try. Oh, and if you hear any top-end edge, try a tube preamp. I have an ARC Ref 3 that helped open up the sound stage and beautifully refine the top end. Happy holidays and happy listening. |