Thiel Owners

Thiel 3.6 is 86 db 2.5 ohm minimum. Thiel 7.2 is 86 db 3 ohm minimum. That’s from this little dealer book one shop would’ve gotten from thiel

Jafant,

now that my system can breathe and function at its full potential, I can justify experimenting with tweaks. In my old house it just didn’t make sense. Perhaps you could make some suggestions to steer me in the right direction, as I am a novice audiophile. As much as I love my Belles hot rod, I have been thinking an upgrade in my amp would make the most sense. If I do upgrade, a power cord would be a must. Thanks,  happy listening. 

The biggest improvement to my system has been moving into a new room. We have a very large open basement and I made a theater room at one end. The Thiels are 13 feet apart, 3 feet from the rear walls, and 16 feet from my listening seat. The sound stage and imaging is glorious. The vocals are dead center, very holographic, and up into the ceiling at times. A lot of the sound stage improvements also come from the addition of the preamp, and the CIFTE NOS tubes I installed. There is no comparison to the old corner of the basement in my old 900 square-foot house where the speakers were crammed up against the wall and my listening chair was literally touching the furnace. Not ideal by any means, but I made the best of it.

happy listening

bellesfan
Absolutely! I have read about Shandling over the years and most fans stay with the stock PC. This is a testament to quality engineering.A dedicated line certainly helps as does a conditioner/re-generator (much will depend on your locale).  Reading this thread all of the way through,
you will discover, that  I am the first to stand up for cables/cords.By all means, experiment and have fun,  in the process!
Happy Listening!

Thoft,

I agree with you. When I visit the audio stores, I rarely hear Speakers that I like as much as Thiels. It just seems something is missing. I have listen to some really high-end, high dollar, systems locally and was thinking to myself “my system sounds better“. 
Jafant,
when I moved into my new house, I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed just for the power amp\stereo system. I run the Belles straight into the wall, and the rest of the system through a Panamax power conditioner. The Shandling has a pretty decent power cord, and I ended up with a spare one that I use on the Primaluna. Would like to eventually play with power cords to see if they make a difference in my system.

happy listening 

@thoft  as your comment above is aligned with my recent comments of perhaps finally hearing the reality of coherence for the first time in 20 years of Thiel ownership, I'll of course throw in my 2 cents worth with a long essay :-|

I've been going to the big audio shows annually (Montreal in recent years), auditioning in the better brick-and-mortar stores to assess the latest and greatest at all price points and design approaches.  All components, but ultimately the speakers used are the 'gatekeepers.'

After all these years I can recognize great sound, not-so-great sound, and a very 'different' sound.  And hear the best soundstaging and clarity, primarily, that exceed what I'm used to at home.  But every time I return home with a weekend of high-end audio fresh in my head, there's a certain 'rightness' to the sound in my room that more than makes up for the improved specific attributes of various systems I heard at shows or showrooms.  I can focus on the attributes my rig doesn't do as well as the uber-systems, but that doesn't alter the listening satisfaction.

This does prevent major upgrade fever, and also makes it very clear when I do make a tweak for the better.  Some of this is long-term familiarity with my electronics and room acoustic, but from recent posts, I think a lot has to do with my 2.4s presenting my audio signals out of the power amp more realistically than the mostly non-coherent speakers I'd been auditioning.  IOW I'm not missing the coherence when listening to other speakers, but relaxing back into it when I return to coherence.  

But this seems a long-term thing.  I don't recall the Thiel or Vandersteen or Zu rooms sounding 'relaxed' or even that great, but I also don't hear this coherence 'difference' when comparing speakers back and forth.

" So I’ve been thinking. With the purchase of the amps it would be hard to squeeze in the 7’s. Think I should just stick with what I have for now and just save for 3.7 or the 7.2. 7.2 might be better cause of the mineral polymer baffle instead of straight cement."

The 7.2s are harder to drive than the 3.7s and of course are not as efficient (7.2s were tested by a magazine at 85.5 and 3.7s were tested at 90.7).  Remember, that some 7.2s could be upgraded 7s (and I'm not sure if all 7.2s had the composite baffle or early ones had the concrete one).  The concrete baffle weighs a bit more (I think about 15pounds or so per speaker so it is about 155 lbs vs 170).

The 7.2s will play a bit lower than the 3.7s (but not tons, depending on the room).  They sound different.  I'd think that some people heavy into classical music could prefer the 7.2s but the 3.7s are smoother.

bellesfan,
2nd Note;You bring up an excellent point regarding Power Cord(s). Trust your own ears. Quite often, there is not any need to change out PC from stock.AYRE and Belles qualify in this category. Not sure about Primaluna?

Happy Listening!

bellesfan,
Excellent! Good to read that Acoustic Zen (AZ) and DH Labs are a sonic match w/ Thiel loudspeakers. The Shanling is a fine spinner as well.Is this company still in business?Your ears do not deceive. A Pre-Amp, is the heart of any Audio system.Yes, an Integrated amp counts as well.
Happy Listening!

It’s funny. I go around listening to thes epsekaers people have for sale. Speakers that cost more than mine even and they all just miss something these thiels have. How real they sound. How they make the voices sound like they’re singing in the same room as you. Only the Ar9, certain kef models, dahlquist, vandersteen, and sonus faber even get close. None match the coherency the thiels have at all except for the vandersteen. Obviously I’m 
missing a few others but those are the speakers whose sound I can remember very well and is familiar with.

Jafant,

I’m running Acoustic Zen Wow interconnects and DH labs Q10 speaker cables. Haven’t invested in power cables as of yet. Just added the Primaluna to the system a couple years ago when I moved into a bigger house with a room big enough to support serious listening. For about 17 plus years I was running my Shanling tube cd player straight into the Belles 150a hot rod, using the preamp in the Shanling. The improvements from adding the Primaluna were so great ,I started wondering what a better amp would do. 

So I’ve been thinking. With the purchase of the amps it would be hard to squeeze in the 7’s. Think I should just stick with what I have for now and just save for 3.7 or the 7.2. 7.2 might be better cause of the mineral polymer baffle instead of straight cement.

" Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now."

There's also a post of mine here from December 3, 2019 - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2?page=143

Later 2.3s, I believe right before the introduction of the 2.4s had vented tweeters as noted in the above post.

bellesfan

Welcome! Good to see you here. Equally, good to read that there is another fan of the CS 2.3 loudspeaker. Which cables/power cords are in your system?

Happy Listening!

Thanks for the response, that pretty much answers my question. I think I will stick with my 2.3’s for now. I am currently running a Primaluna tube preamp through a Belles150 a hot rod. Was getting the urge to move up the Belles line of amplifiers to see what my system is capable of. Don’t get me wrong, the hot rod sounds amazing but you know how it goes. I had my sights set on the new virtuoso, when the Cs7’s popped up and got me thinking. I could probably buy the Cs7’s and a used amp for the same or less than the Virtuoso.  Was wondering what would be the bigger step up.

" I just saw a pair of cs7’s pop up for sale. I’ve always wanted a pair if cs7.2’s. How big of a difference is there between the cs7’s and the cs7.2? I currently own cs2.3’s. I’m assuming the cs7’s are a big step up from the cs2.3?"   

When I had my 2.3s, I upgraded to 7.2s and then sold them and bought 3.7s.  This will give some indication of the differences between the 7s and 7.2s - http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/thiel_cs72.htm#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20primary%20differen...

I know that Thiel did offer upgrade kits for the 7s to make them into 7.2s.  Not sure if Coherent Source has those - would be a question for Rob.  Here's a thread about the upgrade kit (I'm sure there are other references) - .https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/upgrade-thiel-7-s-to-7-2-s

Pretty big. I’m getting bigger amps right now to prep for them...

I just saw a pair of cs7’s pop up for sale. I’ve always wanted a pair if cs7.2’s. How big of a difference is there between the cs7’s and the cs7.2? I currently own cs2.3’s. I’m assuming the cs7’s are a big step up from the cs2.3?

tomthiel
Thank You for running down the numbers for models CS7, 7.2 and 3.6 loudspeakers. I hope that you are well and ready for the Spring season.

Happy Listening!

1000 pair. Note these numbers are informal, compiled from Rob and highest observed serial numbers. They cross-check pretty well with other data streams and I update them with new information.

Do you know how many CS6s?

FWIW - there about 1000 pair of 7s and 2500 pair of 7.2s, compared with 3000 pair of 3.6s.

I mean I’m not really struggling on anything. I am comfortably keeping up with priorities but yes I know the 7’s would overwhelm l but man the chance to get them now not knowing when a pair could pop up next...

@thoft, the 3.6’s are probably already too big for your room, I think the 7’s (as good as they are) output, will overwhelm your room. If the 3.6’s are in any kind of decent shape, should garner well over that figure on the open market.
This all seems akin to one living in an apartment, struggling to feed themselves; considering buying a horse as a house pet.

@sdecker , You’re point is well taken , which is why I went back to check again. I wasn’t sure how  the whizzer’s were implemented. In the case of the Tannony’s there are indeed  cross-overs, they’re not 1st order and the step responses clearly show they aren’t time coherent.

Classe model 25 should work on the 7 after all I see videos of them being used on apogees

So here’s the thing if I get the cs 7 my 3.6 have to go. Guy said they’d give 500 on trade in for the 3.6z with me selling my car. I’d be able to do this.

@unsound  I'm not sure why any single-driver cone speaker wouldn't deliver reasonably accurate step and impulse response.  Sure, they may be compromised by dispersion, frequency extremes, SPL limitations, but so long as they're free from a crossover and, ideally, sealed or open-baffle (ie no port tuning), I see no reason for them not to mirror the amplifier's time response within the limits of their motor and diaphragm assembly.
   I see why large single-panel planar speakers may be compromised as you describe.
   Headphones are apples and oranges to me.  Two very different and equally valid listening experiences, especially with the relatively recent advancements of higher-end headphones and dedicated amps.  YMMV.  My only point was that nearly all headphones are perfectly time- and phase-coherent, with none of the compromises required by single-driver  or Thiel-like multi-way speakers.

rwscott

Good to see you here. I hope that the CS 1.5 loudspeakers find the next good home.

Happy Listening!

@sdecker , your post got me to thinking past memory. I went back and looked at measurements for the other loudspeaker brands you mentioned. Of the ones I could find such measurements for, one brand surprised me for it's step response, though there were real problems elsewhere, the time response for the Zu's were  better than I recalled. 

I have a pair of Cs 1.5 s that have been great. really don’t have a room to use them now after downsizing and am looking to sell them to someone who will appreciate them. They are great speakers that I’ve had at least 18 - 20 years.  They were fronts for a surround sound thru Rotel  processor!

Remember that audio research d-110 I inquired about a while back? Well the guy got it restored and is driving his thiel 3.6’s with it.

Yes.  Thank you very much. 

2nd Note;
the Light Oak finish is very attractive. I have seen several models in this color over the years.

Happy Listening!

tonywinga

Good to see you here. A beautiful room and system!

Happy Listening!

@sdecker, while those  panel speakers might be somewhat better at time and phase coherence than most typical speakers, they don’t really qualify, as it still takes time to cross the surface of those drivers. The Quad ESL’63 are a notable exception with their time coherent concentric rings. The somewhat more typical dynamic single drivers, again can be better, but still usually don’t qualify. It takes a concerted effort to achieve true time coherence that can be verified with an appropriate step response.
 I do not usually share your appreciation for headphones. The in your head presentation just sounds weird to me. I can appreciate that for some studio productions made without musicians present, that headphone listening might indeed be a more accurate reproduction of the music’s genesis. Such listening for me is very infrequent.

Audeze planar headphones ftw on that headphone junkie note.

   Would my and unsounds observations of a more relaxed sound from fully coherent box and cone speakers also apply to full-range panel speakers like Martin Logan CLS, Quad ESL? 
   And for that matter all the single driver cone and box speakers like Zu, Dayton, Tannoy, and many small companies making simple efficient speakers for the SET market?
   There must be a reason I've been a headphone junkie since forever...

CS6.  I bought them as demos from a dealer in 2005.  They are beautiful speakers in a light oak finish. 

Tony - what model do you have?

I always believed that too.  I haven’t discerned any downside so far but I’ll listen to them this way for a while and then put the cloths back on. 

I recently spoke with Rob G. about the same issue re my 3.7s. He said that the grill cloth is an integral part of the speaker design in all models except the 3.7, where it is entirely cosmetic.

I just listened to my Thiels naked.  I mean I removed the cloth grilles. I kept my clothes on of course since that could affect the sound reflections. I don’t know why I have never tried that before.  They look cool without the grilles on.  It took the clarity up a notch.  The imaging is so tight and focused now I have been getting autographs from the singers.  

Happy Friday! All

tomthiel

Thank You for a little Thiel history on the 01/02/03 models.

Happy Listening!

^For those that seem to appreciate the difference between coherent and non-coherent speakers, I think it’s a combination of conscious and unconscious appreciation. This might be especially true for the superior transient response, which is consciously self evident, but perhaps unconsciously appreciated as offering perceived superior imaging as well.

Even though it took me twenty years of listening mostly to Thiels as my primary speakers, I'm amazed I never heard this relaxed/rightness/ease/naturalness/grace so dramatically until after a month of listening to a very good non-coherent speaker.

Why have all the hundreds of 'golden eared' reviewers over the years, I'd like to think many free from industry obligations, and preconceptions of their minimal understanding of engineering acoustics, and who actually DO have good subjective evaluation skills, never (to my awareness) so much as mentioned such a notable difference in musical presentation?? They sure can dissect the individual elements of and between speakers, and over the years Vandersteens and Thiels have certainly been frequently-enough reviewed for *someone* to mention what we notice.

Then again if it took me twenty years of having them in my home without hearing this characteristic as such, perhaps it really is a subliminal subconscious trait, revealed only after years of acclimation?

^It’s not practical to expect Thiel or any other loudspeaker manufacturers to build speakers that come with their own dedicated rooms.
I’ve suggested before that perhaps flat profile coincidental drivers with compensation for flush wall mounting coupled with DSP could be a solution to the dilemma you’ve pointed out. There might be Doppler effect issues that will need to be addressed with the coincidental drivers, Yes, technology moves on, sometimes applicable progress takes time to catch up.