Thiel Owners
cargen Welcome! Good to read that you are another fan of the CS 3.7 loudspeaker and Conrad Johnson electronics. Reading through this thread, I chased the 350 Premier for quite a few years. It is an incredible Power Amp! You are fortunate to own one. Also good to read that you are located in the greater Nashville area. Take your time, enjoy reading through this thread. You will find several fans and owners of the 3.7 model. Enjoy the Music! Happy Listening! |
jon_5912 Plus1! I hear high end B&W's regularly and agree about the peaky tweeters. I would characterize them as too bright a treble for my taste. B&W sounds impressive in the showroom but would get on my nerves for longer periods of time. I have a desire to try a tube amp and tube friendly speakers to see if I can capture the "tube magic" in a speaker that sounds like a Thiel. Listening sessions with what I have listened to so far (Sonus Faber and Klipsch) end with me comparing to my CS5i's and the contenders come up short. Maybe it is time to try some big tube amps? Any thoughts on that? Thanks for listening, Dsper |
I've been a "lurker” on this site since February. Started on Page 1 and am currently on Page 103, Jan 23, 2019. I've been an A'goner since 2003, about when I installed my initial all ceiling-mounted 5.2 surround sound system comprised of first version Thiel PowerPoint 1.0's and two Velodyne DD-15 subwoofers. I am 72, about Tom Thiel's age, and my audio journey started in the early 1970's. It has been fun! I intend to gradually fill in some blanks that touch on some of what I've read in the first 103 pages here, plus a Thiel-specific story in 2007 that may interest this discussion group. But first, a fast-forward to my current Thiel circumstances. “I am glad you found the CS3.7’s for sale. There was an upgraded crossover made for the CS3.7 at serial number approximately 517,18. The newer crossover was made on a PCB. The original crossover or Rev. 1, is the crossover in which you have purchased. The original crossovers (like yours) were done with point to point soldering, on a riveted masonite board. This is the crossover which I like best. Another update to the CS3.7 is through the coaxial driver (mr/tw). The original incorporates a silver basket and bezel. When we received the coaxes they varied in SPL, so we placed a small tuning resistor on each driver after testing to determine which was needed, to keep the SPL at a specified level. The new coaxes are black basket and bezel, and require a 2 ohm resistor, placed on each driver. All purchased drivers are ready to install.” Because the seller powered these 3.7’s with a high current Classe amplifier in use at sale, I’m confident about them so based on Rob’s reply, I chose to have them shipped direct from Vermont to Brentwood, TN where I live. I do know all boxes arrived in perfect shape = no fork lift penetrations etc. Sort of crazy to have all that drool-worthy gear just sitting, but I do like to sail. More to follow . . . Chris |
Tom, Thanks for your answers and response. I need to do a time offset on a speaker that already has a physical offset. The new ribbon tweeter I thought would be nearly a drop in has its element recessed by a bout a .5 inches. Now it needs to come further forward. So I need to be creative with the added shim shape or bullnose to blend into the poured granite cabinet..Awesome tuneable external resonance control for both woofer and crossover board. Maybe difficult to maintain a good blended look. Thanks again. Tom |
I’m not sure about your shim question. I have added shims to both drivers to optimize how the Ultrasuede on 1/8" felt works. Those shims are about 2mm = 1/10" thick. But they are under all drivers, so they don’t change relative driver arrival times. Thiel’s driver arrivals are baked into the design, and they are virtually dead nuts IF your ear height is as designed = 3’ up x 8’ or more distance. If you have access to a step function generator, and you put your mic at your listening ear position, you can see that the arrival times from the drivers superimposes onto an ideal, single curve. Your ear hears that uniform arrival time as clarity, definition, integrity. Some people can hear deviations in the micro-second range. Some seem not to notice full cycle or more deviations of a millisecond or so. My present 02 project involves converting its stock conventional flat-baffle launch to a geometry where the woofer is brought forward enough for accurate time alignment. The offset required is 36mm because the woofer is rather deep. A final product might hope to use a shallower woofer for less offset and therefore fewer reflection and diffraction artifacts from the stand-off. That 36mm was estimated by reading the arrival time discontinuity, then prototyping and tweaking until the waveforms of the two drivers look like a single trace. Have I answered your question? |
Hello Tom Thiel, I want to ask you about the shim or shims you added to the driver to aid in alignment. Was there a number such as .125 or .250 shim thickness added singularly or in addition to arrive at your final destination? Is there a minimum fractional distance that the brain can determine as a skewed time offset? Personally I think it is as small as 1/8 of an inch. Thanks for your insights. Tom |
justinjwilliams Welcome! Good to see you here. I can understand the appeal of B&W 800 series speakers. For a few years, I enjoyed the 805 monitor. Are you looking to build a complete system around the 800 loudspeakers? Regarding selling your current gear- check out U.S. Audiomart. The fee for selling over there is much less than here or eBay. Something to consider. Happy Listening! |
As someone who went from the B&W 800 series to Thiel about 10 years ago I will be the first one to tell you that you're making a bad decision. I found the Thiels to be better in every area I cared about. The B&Ws will play louder and have more (lower quality) bass. The Thiels have more defined bass, clearer, more intelligible midrange, less peaky tweeter, better imaging, more realistic soundstage, better transients, and a difficult to describe relaxing quality that may be due to their better phase behavior. |
Hello all - newbie here...just discovered this site last week or so and this thread several hours ago! Such passion for Thiels! Real quick cuz it’s 4am and I’m zonking-out I’m the original owner of a pair of black ash 3.6s complimented by a couple of .5s and a definitive sw and PSB center I’ve had since the late 90’s. Perfect condition and I’m looking to sell it or trade for 800 series b&ws. I know there is a place for this somewhere on the site and I plan to do this the right way (!) but I just wanted to send this out to the universe as a sort of place mark. I’m in the Bay Area and would be interested just to find out what it is I have, what the current value is. (I have no idea what I paid initially but none of it was cheap!) It’s used as mostly a home theater setup along with my 1000 watt definitive sw and 200x5 WPc Aragon amp and stageone pre pro which are the main reason for my upgrade dreams. They are great, but not even an hdmi connect! I’ll learn the forum rules and undoubtedly already broke several but as I said, this is just a stab at a bookmark before I forget or can’t navigate my way back! Apologies ahead of time gotta hit the hay! Feel free to contact any way. Yours jjw |
Rob G and I spent a month+ last October/November emailing and me calling to sort out the truly messed up CS3.7 that I had bought used. He helped with speaker design diagrams and hand held me on repairs and diagnostics remotely. Along with advice on the tools to buy. If he was not available and willing to help I would have been stuck with an an expensive damaged speaker with no way to fix. The CS3.7 shipping boxes I had were like paper and no way I wanted to use them to ship them to Rob from California home. He is difficult to get a hold off but I was doing all of this during the thanksgiving holiday time period. |
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Tom - My pair has its serial numbers rubbed off, so I don't know if any changes were made later. Mine have the pins I designed for the CS2.2, which is a smooth 1/4" pin with a retention 0-ring seated in a nylon shoulder bushing. That bushing pulls out. I don't remember the bored hole size, but probably 5/16" plain bore. |
If anyone is interested I will be selling a 1 month old KRELL K-300i integrated soon. It is currently playing in my Thiel CS3.7 and it is perfect match. I am going CODA separates. I had an all Benchmark stack on the CS3.7 but I think the KRELL is a little better and actually rated for 2 ohm. Whereas my AHB2 are not officially rated for 2 Ohm but does work great with the CS3.7. We are talking about tiny improvements with the KRELL, mostly in the bass region. I moved the Benchmark gear (my best gear) to the living room where I have more space and bigger plans. |
@tomthiel I posted around October 2020 the name of the guy would did my mods. Audio Repairs & Modifications & Care (sublimelistening.com) He actually drove to my house to fix an issue with a mod he had done. A very honest and expert SCD-1 tech. |
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I have Thiel's original Sony SCD-1, and it needs repair. Someone here noted a tech doing this work.
" Don't know about the original recommendation but Bill Thalmann would be someone I'd recommend - https://www.musictechnology.com/about-us |
A variant of the Lincoln Effect, which I have come to use extensively, is the Background Effect. Playing music in the background, while I work, in and out of the room and while assessing technical measurements, has an interesting effect. I play the next CD up, and I play it all day, and I take mental notes of tracks with particular effects or utility. My comment is on the different kind of evaluation of the speaker under test which is occurring in that mode. There is a global assessment of appeal or resistance, of feeling-states or level and kind of involvement, which, over time, associates with speaker component evaluation and selection. It seems unlikely that those observations would come to the surface via directed, focused, evaluative listening sessions. As sdecker says, we're too focused on the minutiae and technical to allow the global to penetrate. This effect is similar to what many pros have mentioned. A new set of headphones or preamp, or mixer, etc. takes about two weeks to 'settle in'. They don't typically talk about equipment burn-in, but rather a form of psychological familiarity or knowing that allows a final accept/reject decision - to use or not to use for their technical art. I know that people on this thread have expressed this factor as their interpretation of what 'burn-in' is really about. There is truth there, along with truth of component maturation under stress. Anyhow, this week I hope to compare first vs second order, both time-aligned in the 02. (while packing and preparing to move - what a trip.) |
At TA I always cultivated “Lincolns” and their contribution was invaluable. others here might supply more technical explanation of XO slopes; Here’s my layman’s take, IF a system creates a proper step response, it is phase/time coherent. Jim’s second order XOs in the 02/SCS series do create such steps, because he kept polarity positive and he used beaming of the largish woofer to good effect. It works whereas most 2nd order executions don’t. Nevertheless, there are more reactance and wider phase and impedance swings in the second order. First order is more ideal BUT 1st order requires much more sophisticated drivers. I am presently comparing 1st vs 2nd in the O2, which is of great interest to me. I’ll report findings. Marena and Lincoln will keep me honest. |
I've made a point to have "Lincoln"-like friends to evaluate changes in my own system over the decades. Changes I (and other audiophile friends) may be too caught up in the minutiae to make an unbiased evaluation. I think half the reason the Lincolns are so useful is they're excited to hear 'real' hifi reproducing music that they can better focus and more enthusiastically assess, free from what they 'should' be hearing. What does your experiment say to the common knowledge (?) that time/phase coherence can only be achieved using first order XOs when processing in the analog domain?? |
A thought. It is asked whether phase/time really matters or if designers so inclined just pay close attention to everything, therefore producing successful products. This week's experiments might shed a little light. You know Marena. We’ve been working together again in the times of waning Covid fears. She has great ears, a well developed musical sense, and is a performing singer-songwriter. We’re comparing Douglas Pauly’s turbulence control technologies which I call "laminar launch". We’re using the 02 because it’s easy, available and feasible to ship around the country for serial evaluation and input. I became irritated with the one cycle lead of the tweeter - distracting from the deep engagement needed to compare laminar launch variations. So I made 4 sample 02s. R: stock = Reference, which Doug has been using in California. A, B, and C, leap-frog upgrades till now all the same with Thiel CS.5 drivers and 02 XOs implemented with ERSE coils and their best caps plus Mills resistors on separate W and T boards, plus my new super-wire, and nicely braced cabinets with F11 felt on the baffles. Substantial performance improvement over stock. A, B and C all measure and sound very close to identical. Enter the dark horse. I moved the woofer on A forward until the onset transient is time aligned. Still second order slopes, but all positive polarity and time-aligned, like an SCS / PowerPoint series. A's frequency response and harmonic distortion are undifferentiable from B and C. However, the impulse and step response now show time alignment. Excess phase and group delay are marginally improved. Of note is the waterfall plots behave better, which surprises me. The listening experience is qualitatively different. Subjectively, A now seems less forward, especially the high frequancy edge is gone. Gone. The differences read like many Thiel fans cite as their reasons for liking Thiel’s sound. Marena and I have practically written each others' comments regarding the improvements. But now I have a treat to add from this morning. My home is a small village of 1000. I have known Lincoln Fedicovich since he was born, as a rambunctious child and now a hard-working young man of 20, who is helping me move my shop/studio on short notice - another story. When he came for work this morning I asked if he would help me listen. His reply was "sure, but I’m not very musical". My test cut was Sarah Jaroz "Peace" from her "Follow Me Down" album. As is our custom, Lincoln listens blind, in his case very blind with no musical or hi-fi experience, knowing only speaker A and B, each fed a mono-mixed signal through the Classe DR6 to bridged dedicated AHB-2s for each channel. A & B are 4’ apart with listening line 6’ out. Play A, Play B, chat: Lincoln is my ideal "naive listener", interested but quite unexposed or opinionated. He said: "A was more crisp, clearer in every way. B was more like a speaker. Then I told him they were identical speakers except that A’s woofer was on a stand-off to make the music from both drivers arrive at the same time. I added that many experts think that doesn’t matter. We repeated A & B after which he said: "B still seems like a speaker. A is more like the music is here, happening in front of me. Can we listen in stereo?" We did after which he added: A is overwhelming better if every way, like it’s real". Then he added. "I always wanted to learn guitar. My grandma played lots of music for me growing up. Everything: Classical, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, country folk, Johnny Cash, Nelson - lots of stuff. I haven't thought of that in years. This is good stuff." He agreed to help listen whenever I want. Now, how’s that for Saturday morning before getting to work on moving! |
