Thiel Owners
@james633 I am a Thiel CS3.7 guy now and maybe I can offer some Benchmark feedback. The Benchmark HPA4 preamp is great. It will make any DAC sound better because it is quieter than all DACs connected to it and the volume control is of very high quality. I also have the Benchmark DAC3B it is pretty good, especially when paired with the HPA4 with balanced cables. However, I have a new DAC that I find a lot better than the DAC3B and I use it with the HPA4. It is also cheaper ($1500) and I believe it measure just as well as the DAC3B. It is the Gustard X26 Pro. The One to Beat: Gustard X26 PRO DAC Review (soundnews.net) I use the Gustard with 2 preamps using RCA and XLR to each one. The CODA 07x, a warm preamp, and the HPA4. Both going into a Class D amp for my Thiel CS3.7. I have 2 sets of long XLRs from each preamp. I have the DAC3B setup the same way with RCA and XLR and can easily do comparisons. The Gustard is the clear winner. It is a bit warmer than the DAC3B and really detailed with a very big sound. I should note that I had an issue with the first Gustard X26 Pro I bought. It was on rare occasions outputting increasing noise after many hours of playing. I would power down for 10 seconds and everything was good again. I have a contact in Texas who bought the Gustard X26 Pro after me. He did not have this issue. So I contacted the Chinese seller and they told me to send it back. I sent it back by USPS for $116 and they sent a new unit in 7 days. The new unit does not seem to have this issue. I also used it as a preamp but the 2 preamps I have are much better. |
Jafant, I have a simple all digital system. Mac mini computer into a wyred4sound dac, to two JL E112 subs highpassed at 60z to the MC462 amp. I dabble in home theater (well maybe more than dabble, with a dedicated, treated all black room lol) so I have a bunch of gear in a rack way off to the side bypassed through the DAC. Large 25x26x7.5’ room but I only sit 9’ from the speakers. Entire ceiling is acoustic panels with 9” of mineral wool behind them. That change helped a lot. I plan to get rid of the dac next and move back to benchmark. I will do their new HP4A and DAC. I really like the benchmark stuff but had issues with the volume control on the older models (moved too fast and had poor left to right matching as it changed volume). I tried a few tube preamps and solid state pre-amps and ended up with no preamp at all. I feel like the leading edge of the bass has been lacking since getting rid of the benchmark dac. Odd comment I know but something about it for sure. I tried the McIntosh C9 preamp/MC462 combo with the Revel 328be and felt the C9 added a little too much “Mac sound” so I think I will stick to a less colored preamp not to mention cheaper. The MC462 is just enough (very subtle) tonal color for me which took the edge of the Thiels and what I was going for. On a side note the Revel 328be is a really great speaker I think most Thiel owners would like. Flat tonal balance and wide soundstage with stable dispersion. Seemed to play with limitless volume too (very clean). The highs are really something on them. Makes the highs on the Thiels seem a little dated. |
I have been running my 2.4s off a McIntosh MC462 power amp for about a month now and I am happy with the results. It should be noted that I highpass my speakers at 60hz. While the MC462 does not look like the best match for the 2.4 due to its wicked 2 ohm impedance curve the MC462 does a great job to my ear. I have it connected through the 2 ohm taps. The sound is very balanced and the highs sound better than they ever have through the Thiels with a silkier sound that is not rolled off or lacking detail. The mids have zero glare and there is good texture in the upper mid bass, subs handle the low bass. In the past I have used a number of class-d amps (wyred 4 sound), Rotel AB amps, and benchmark equipment. I can’t really speak directly on the sound difference due to so much time between all of them but I feel that the McIntosh/Thiel combo is the most refined and listenable of all my setups. |
ctsooner As always, good to see you here. I hope that you are well and ready for the Summer season. A few days ago I had a demo on Swisscable . I have been awaiting this audition since January. I enjoyed a small system featuring Audio Hungary Integrated amp, Innuous server/streamer(dealer/retailer uses these devices) and QLN Prestige 5 loudspeakers. Overall, an excellent demo. the system was lively and musical top to bottom. In late Summer I will take a 2nd demo and bring one of my spinners for Critical evaluation. The cables/cords are Top Shelf to be sure. More to follow as I hone in on Reference cabling. Happy Listening! |
sdecker Feel free to talk about anything Audio related here. CD and SACD discussion is most-certainly allowed! Not all of Us are into music servers/streaming, myself included. A strong percentage of the Panel are into Vinyl. No harm there either. It is all about the Music and Gear that transports to that magical place. This is my 1st spinner to feature "filters" for playback. I am open for Hot Tips. Happy Listening! |
@jafant I'll be interested to read your impressions of the SA11S2, though not sure how much detail you'll post on a speaker forum. I auditioned one at home for 30 days when they were newly released, and sent it back...Perhaps we should compare notes offline after you've had ample time to get its measure. Don't want to bias you or anyone else about their electronics! |
johnhh Welcome! Good to see you here today. I believe that there is 1 other CS 1.5 owner on the Panel. Now, to address your query. Both Bryston and Classe' are sonic matches for Thiel Audio loudspeakers. You are already up and running. Many options regarding servers and streaming. Stay tuned until someone chimes in about Flac files and hard-drives. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes. Happy Listening! |
Fascinating thread for a non Thiel owner. I just remember auditioning the Thiel and Vandersteen together at my local shop back in the day (Take 5 Audio across from Yale). I liked the Vandersteen 2's better as the high end was a bit less pronounced, but I think it also may have been the electronics (but it was all Threshhold if I recall). Both lines were better than anything else they had in the store to my ears. They were a large Wilson dealer, but I never liked Wilson's as they made my ears bleed, lol... It's that both speakers are time and phase correct. Many don't hear the differences, but I can nearly promise you that any Vandersteen or Thiel lover does hear it and is sensitive to it. I'd love some Thiel owners of years past (when Jim made them) to post on the Vandersteen forums as we have so much in common. We have a lot of music threads there too. This is a fun thread as folks appreciate the music and not just the equipment. |
I am new to this mania, moving from a Pioneer 1050 SX to something more fun. Not ready for the cost of hifi... I have some Theil CS 1.5 speakers that I want to power up. They will be in a small home office 12x15, but may move them into the garage/shop 24x24 but crowded as I spend a lot of time there woodworking and kicking back. Considering cost,,,, for an amp I am looking at a Classe CAP 101 and a Bryston 2B with a 0.5B preamp. I will use a Bluesound Node and stream Qobuz or my CD collection flac files from a hard drive. What do you guys think? |
Hi All, Just wanted everyone to know that I keep learning by reading this thread. and I am not through all of it yet...! One thing I have learned, know, is that the CS5i's are not bright. Feed them right and you will be rewarded. Right now, I am listening at 53 on the CJ 17LS2 (80-85 dbls at my chair) when I normally listen at like 17 to 29. Everything is holding together with no harshness and the bass is pounding it along. The Mystique V3 DAC is adding to the speakers. Jafant, thanks for the thread, Dsper |
FWIW - I spent about 6 months in intensive wire learning and comparisons last year. I felt connected to that exploration since I had researched and selected the original wire for the 03, Thiel's first phase coherent speaker in 1978. Thiel stayed with that wire and its successors throughout Original Thiel. It is CDA101 (5-9s, long crystal, oxygen free) in teflon, tight twist (originally 2 / inch, then 3/ inch. Originally we bought from ITT, the aerospace developer of the wire. When StraightWire began, they took over the audio marketing of that wire. Its successors served Thiel onward as well as many other manufacturers. Note that FST boards have a similar-looking wire, but it is CDA102 (next grade down) with sometimes less tight and tidy twisting in a less than teflon jacket. In my re-investigation I sampled Cardas and various offerings of various configurations in various jackets. We listened blind, and I compared a suite of 8 measurements of each wire. Although I don't have definitive tests, our listening paralleled what seemed to be superior measurements. Most of the artifacts of various "lesser" wires occur below 20Hz and above 20kHz. But a sonic signature persists in audibility. Across brands and insulation type, stranded wire has a "forgiving" signature with an appealing bloom in the bass, with a bit of soft tizziness in the upper end. I would call it nice and warm. Solid wire, regardless of other factors, sounds comparatively simple, straightforward and lean. Somewhat counterintuitively, the high end sounds cleaner and more solid than stranded. I cross-checked my findings with Stevem Hill at Straightwire who cross-checked our mutual observations and hypotheses with his physicist associates. I always incorporate what I study and strive to understand with what I hear, beginning with blind listening and progressing through a reduction of possibilities toward a small handful of contenders that sound good and measure well. That has always been a Thiel hallmark, we never choose "nice sounding" if there is evidence of technical glitches. My solution uses a combination of 18 solid and 18 stranded in a particular twist. It behaves extremely well on the scope and in the listening room. I am hand-laying my own working samples, but at some time it will become available through Straightwire. As a general rule, you can assume that anything you get from Rob at CSS is actual Thiel OEM, and that anything connected to an FST (glass) board is an Asian clone. In all cases I have found the Asian clones to be quite good, but a step down from Thiel OEM. There is a lot more to wire than can be measured with capacitance, resistance, and inductance. Electromagnetic propagation interactions, electrolytic absorption and wire crystaline anatomy all do things. Some among us hear artifacts from those things. Some in the engineering arena think we're crazy. But in all cases that I have gotten a straight-ahead engineer to listen, they agree that there is something going on. Steve Hill thinks they can't admit what they hear because their understandings of the processes don't account for the differences. Therein lies the gate to audiophildom: we believe it matters if we can hear it, and the cognitive understandings must follow from the heard experience. |
Rob - Thiel's homegrown boards were all masonite. The show boards were masonite sanded and painted to look cool. Asian imported boards were all fiberglas. It is possible there were transition boards, but I've not heard of them. The 2.7 was made entirely in-house in Lexington under management of the first New Thiel team who sought to return to roots. New Thiel ownership changed leadership 5 times in the 5 years they ran it. Team 2 abandoned Jim's design approach and took all manufacture to Asia. As far as I know, if yours has a masonite board, it also has components refined through time for best cost-performance. |
@tmsrdg ERSE sells direct erseaudio.com , I've also found that partsconnexion has the best prices when you wait for their sales and the best sellection for USA postage , HiFi collection is another great source but with higher postage rates . @beetlemania Thanks , I looked at images of 2.4 crossovers , interesting thing is that they all look like circut board material while I thought that Thiel was using a masonite type board like those used in my 2.7's . But if you look at images of 2.7 you'll see that they look more like circuit board material and I think are demonstrator models . What is your board material made of ? |
Wow Beetlemania, you're my kind of audiophile. The few times I posted similar details, and the proper test engineering of listening and evaluating each set of changes, then ranking them, I've been met with crickets. As such, my post you're responding to was minimal. I do have 0.1uF bypass Multicaps across all three ESAs, and my 13uF coax series is a 10uF || 3uF ESA. (These are in addition to the Lexington Elpacs I mentioned that remain in place) I'm sure there are all variety of better caps by now that improve on both CSA and ESA; that ship has sailed. Fair point to replace the electrolytics due to loose tolerances and drift. I'll look into the coils and order the resistors. Thiel supplied me with the schematic for the HF XO, but don't have one for the LF XO, though it should be simple enough to figure out. Anyone who has that diagram I'd appreciate it in a PM. Does anyone know about the changes to the 2.4 woofer that were apparently made after my speakers were manufactured? |
Interesting to read the 2.4 upgrade issues here and the seeming availability of parts. I'm currently planning a complete upgrade to my 3.7 XOs . It has FXT boards, loosely wound coils, MKT caps, just as @beetlemania describes. I have spent the last several months trying to source components. Nothing at all available from ERSE or Rob for coil replacement but have found everything I need from Jantzen. Resistors not a problem. Caps a big problem but work is in progress. I want to have this all done by summer end and will post. |
Excellent discussion- All. Reading across other Audio forums, Cardas Rhodium/Silver is the preferred binding post upgrade. This technique is applied to loudspeaker as well as Power amp posts. Silver tends to act as a superior conductor on several Audio fronts. Presentation and sound can portray brightness and or lean. At any rate Silver is very fast sounding. One audition with a Nordost cable or cord is all it takes. Happy Listening! |
Did you use ERSE Fiol/Q for all 3 speakers ?I imagine you mean all three boards? The 2.4 uses a mechanical crossover for the tweeter/mid, so only two boards. The coax and woofer boards each have one coil in the direct feed path and those are the ones Tom selected as targets for foil type. But I’ve read, and now experienced, that caps in the shunt position can have audible consequences even on the woofer board. Some consider better components in shunts to not result in better SQ, all the more so on the woofer. To be fair, the 2.4 crossover is at 700 cycles (IIRC) and, with the low slopes, that woofer is really covering most of the midrange. But, my point is I will not be surprised to read reports of improved SQ using foil type coils in the shunt position. |
snbeall- The PCS was introduced in 2000. If yours has a double magnet on the woofer, that constitutes the upgrade. Interesting thing that double magnet. Its obvious purpose is to reduce EMF leakage for use near a video monitor. However, the reduced stray fields also reduce interaction with the crossover inductors and lead wires for more solidity and transparency, especially with complex and/or loud music. |
@beetlemania I too replaced the posts with the Cardas rodium/silver with the gold plated nuts , a lot of work for little if any gain . To clarify I replaced the new Thiel wire and made the assumption that your 2.4se's came with Striaghtwire 18 guage solid wire , but either way the Cardas wiring was a big upgrade for both of us . I used 17.5 awg for the tweeter and mid-range and 15.5awg for the woofer and to the inputs on the crossover boards . I am curious about the new Straight wire configurations that Tom is experimenting with . Did you use ERSE Fiol/Q for all 3 speakers ? |
@vair68robert So, you have installed Cardas hook up wire and compared it to “original” and “new” Thiel? IIRC, @tomthiel said that OEM was sourced from Straightwire (at least for “original” Thiel) but it was never resolved whether my SEs were equipped with that or sourced from FST. It did appear to be 18 ga and twisted per the Thiel recipe. Note that I also replaced the gold over brass OEM binding posts with Cardas rhodium over silver. On paper, a notable upgrade. I cannot say to what degree the sonics are resulting from the wire versus binding posts. |
most of the way to these speakers’ potential once I replace the resistors.Super cool that you have Lexington boards and upgraded the coax feeds to ESAs. I am confident you’re getting better SQ than the SE version (FST boards plus SAs on the coax feeds). My SEs had the FST boards with CYC MKT caps (other than the Clarity SAs on the coax), air core coils but with less than optimal winding integrity, and sandcast resistors (manufacturer unknown but similar construction to sandcasts from Xicon or Erse). Additionally, the printed circuit boards looked to have been somewhat burned underneath a couple of the resistors, so perhaps these were damaged by a previous owner playing very loudly. During my upgrade, I did not listen to each single change I made so am unable to pinpoint everything. But I did pause at several stages and compared modified and reference channels in mono (using Roon to produce a mono mix). Comparisons I made were: 1) FST boards with sandcasts v Mills; 2) FST with Mills v “Tom Thiel boards” (CSAs though out, including on coax shunts, Lex-equivalent coils including Erse FoilQ in feed positions, and Mills resistors); 3) Tom’s boards with and without RTX Multicap bypasses on the coax feeds; 4) 160 v 250 V woofer shunt caps; 5) OEM binding posts and hookup wire v Cardas binding posts and hook up wire; 6) single v biwiring from the amp. I heard at least some difference from each of these changes. In significance, I rank them: 1) CSAs + Lex/FoilQ coils (better resolution/textures/microdynamics; more open, clear, and transparent); 2) Mills MRAs (mitigated “glassy” midrange, improved bass impact/soundstage/“ease”): 3) Cardas wire and binding posts (more open/clear/holographic/“immediate”); 4) tie among biwiring (more relaxed/liquid/dimensional), coax Multicap bypasses (better “jump factor”, smidge more resolution), and higher voltage woofer shunt caps (bass “heft”, ease of presentation). So, @sdecker I strongly recommend you upgrade the resistors. That’s a nice upgrade for short money. Several sources indicate the CSA improves on the ESA but is it worth your time and effort? I recall you kept the 1 uF bypass caps, so maybe “yes” (ie, get full capacitance in a single cap or, if forced to run parallel, have the smaller cap represent a larger portion of the total capacitance). In your shoes, I would upgrade the *feed* coils to FoilQ or Jantzen wax foil (one coil on each board). I did not directly compare the foil to air core but I think it’s worth trying this given that you can get all four foil coils for <$100. I would replace the 100uF coax shunts if only because electrolytics drift with age. The best solution is to go with film caps as they sound better and will last far longer but those are also far more expensive and larger. Sticking to electrolytics, I would pick the Jantzens. The other changes I made fall in the category of diminishing returns (although I had a big smile on my face with the Cardas, it seemed to snap everything into focus). You might try a small bypass on the coax feed caps. Something like a 0.1 uF Audyn True Copper Max, Clarity CMR, or Jupiter copper foil. I don’t know that these are better than the more affordable Multicap but am curious. I have each coax feed, including the 43 uF subfeed, bypassed at ~1% but you might try a single 0.1 uF on the 28 uF cap. |
Tom Thank you for passing on your information about speaker production #'s. I am pleasantly suprised that there were 1500 pairs of 2.7s , way more than I thought . Going back to internal wiring , after my trials and errors I totally agree with you that the wiring inside the speakers have to be twisted . While I can't say that the Cardas chassis wire sounds better than the original Thiel 18 gauge solid wire ( beetle can and did ) , they do sound much better than the new Thiel 16 gauge stranded wire . I've also change speaker wire configuration by using Cardas Neutral Reference which is 4 X 11.5 gauge ( both polarities ) for the positive and using 2 X 9.5 gauge homemade for the negative , keeping them separate basically doubling the gauge input . I haven't started yet on the crossovers except to buy the Mills resistors from Partsconnexion because of the great sale price . One big issue with the 2.7 crossover design when trying to upgrade the components , to use Mills resistors one has to use 2 in parallel for almost everyone and for some reason they did not follow Jim's philosophy with limiting capacitors to 100uf . When I replace the 400uf and the 330 + 220uf electrolytics on the mid board because of space the best I can do is 2 X 200uf and 2 X 220uf + 1 X 110uf ( unless you recommend 2 X 200 and 1 X 150uf ). Anyway upgrading speakers can be very challenging and I am very grateful for all your advise . Thank You Rob |
beetlemania, Surprised about your (less than adequately disclosed) damages, because I failed to mention their high quality photography and was almost going to comment on their almost obsessive disclosures. The last two items I purchased had photographs of the tiniest of nicks and rubs - very easily touched up with a Sharpie. I have purchased a couple “As-Is” scratch and dent items from them with obvious damage - but even at that, it was very clear from the photos what I was getting. |
tomthiel, Thanks for insider info on the PCS. Wondering why you referred to them as the “Y2K PCS” however? - as if there was perhaps another (later?) version… For what it’s worth, peering thru the access port shows a Jan 2005 manufacture date on the woofer. So it sounds as if the PCS never had the coax driver from the 2.4, but that this particular one may have an “improved” model from the 2.3, correct? I was hoping it might be a miniaturized (i.e. easily shipped and transported) 2.4 with similar performance. Not that it’s performance isn’t satisfying! |
Tom, Thanks for the clarification. I am pretty sure mine are numbered 4332/4333 but like I said the numbers are rubbed and it is a bit of a guess. Based on the above, info they may have been some of the last made, so definitely would not have the lex boards. Guess I now have a future project on my to do list. Glad to hear the 2.4 was definitely a winner both in sales and, for me, sound enjoyment. bettlemania, thank you for the info on accessing to xo. I will start trying to track down the parts mentioned in this thread. Jafant, no I did not have the earlier Cary DMS units but the sound from the 700 via streaming and flac files is truly impressive and musical; on a par with my analogue set up in many recordings. |
Just catching up with the past week of posts -- about 2.4s. Surprised to learn this was Thiel's lowest-volume speaker, building on the successful 2.3, with a good economy for the first 5 years of production when most would have sold, and a still-committed dealer network. As a point of reference, mine are SN 611 & 612 and almost definitely have the original XO: wooden LF & HF boards (literally) hand-wired with Acousti-Coils, AEON electrolytics, bright yellow Elpac 100V 1uF 5% polystyrenes (?), Erse 100uF 100V electrolytics, Xicon resistors, and a Solen PA-MKP-FC in the LF XO. I believe they were AEONs that I replaced with Clarity Cap ESAs some years ago in the coax feed. Rob Gillum built me a new pair of coaxes a couple years ago, so I'm sure I'd be most of the way to these speakers' potential once I replace the resistors. *Most* of the way: I know how far some of you have gone with all the ancillary parts! When I bought these used from agon in mid-2006, I had checked with Thiel who told me these SNs were early production units with the previous woofer that was later updated, though sonically identical. Never followed up about that, but I'm sure buried in my paperwork or emails is the date of manufacture of these speakers. |
@jmbumgarner01 Here are CS2.4 crossover access instructions from Rob Gillum: The crossover can be accessed through the passive radiator opening. The base is not removable, as it is screwed, and glued. To access the crossover, you must remove the passive radiator screws and let the passive radiator drop into the cabinet. It can be rotated 90 degrees, and removed while servicing. To re-install the passive radiator, you can place your fingers at the surround, pressing outward to hold in place while re-installing the screws that hold bit in place. |
Thiel’s dialed in and set up are magical indeed ….glad to be among fellow Thielites (?)..ha…. Totally agree bettlemania…good to just sit back and enjoy sometimes. jafant, my analogue is Rega P8 alpheta 3 mc and rega aria 3 phono stage, my digital is a Cary DMS 700 (r2r ladder dac and streamer) both of which I love. Those I bought new so they were pricey but they are really sweet and hope to have a good long while. I will let you know if I move forward on 2.4 xo upgrades, probably be a bit as budget is toast and like beetlemania says good to just listen for awhile in between upgrade urges. |
Gotta say the 2.4’s even with the fcx are truly fantastic. I loved reading the vintage reviews linked earlier. I spent the last 4 months switching between the 2.4’s and Magnipan 3.7’s. I feel like a guy with two very beautiful wives that get along, are very similar but each shine in slightly different ways….but I can only be with one at a time….truly audio nirvana. I drive them with Pass X260.8, Cary SLP-05 with NOS tubes and silversmith audio ribbon speaker cables and to my ears it is a combination made in heaven….that said we all continue to look for improvements in our quest for perfection. Thanks for all the ideas and especially to Tom for the history of speakers that have emotionally connected me to recorded music for more than 30 years. |
I love this thread. The history, suggestions and tweeks are priceless. Have owned 2 pair of CS2’s since late ‘80’s. I picked up some mint 2.4’s late last year. Looks like serial #433/434 although almost looks like they could be 4331/4332 . Numbers are rubbed and very hard to read but given number of total pairs made mentioned above the 400’s are likely the better guess. Consequently I likely have the later fcx boards. I am definitely interested in the crossover upgrade possibilities but not really sure I want to dismantle and rebuild myself unless everything can be accessed from the back plate? I may call and see if this can be done turnkey since one of my CS2’s has gone dead in midrange also. These speakers are all keepers for me. |
Prof - I find it interesting to ferret out rather than letting sleeping dogs lie. I'm getting a pair of 2.4s soon and will be able to date them via serial numbers. Their particulars will be of great interest. I suspect with some facts in my quiver, Rob and/or Dawn would confirm or deny my assertions and speculations. TT |
I bought my CS2.4SEs from TMR. I had a positive experience but the cabinets had more damage than advertised. Not just the usual small scratches but one bottom corner is a bit crushed, suggesting the speaker was once dropped. But they were well packaged, in original boxes, on a pallet for delivery to my home. |
No, jafant, I don’t have any upgrades planned. I had my Ayre QB-9 upgraded to the Twenty version last year and that might be my final upgrade. My system is really dialed in. In 2019 I was able to hear a reference system and my system only comes up short in bass extension, bass definition, and image density. Those are only noticeable in direct comparison. I am aware of those shortcomings and nonetheless fully enjoy my system without upgrade neuroses. Meanwhile, my retirement is on the horizon and even now it would be a financial reach to address those minor deficiencies. So, I’m happy with my system and care not to obsess over how to improve it. |
