Thiel Owners

I recently had an opportunity to audition a pair of Bel Canto Ref600 monos for a week, followed by four days with a new Bryston 4b3 on my Thiel 2.4s.  My preamp is an Aesthetix Janus.  I also had the Red Dragon Audio Class D stuff, both a pair of the 500M monos based on an IcePower board and the 500S based on a Pascal board.  I had to rule out the Red Dragon stuff because on my system they sounded for lack of a better word "digital."  The decay on notes seemed unusually long and unnatural with both the Red Dragon options and the stereo amp based on the Pascal board which is supposed to have some special engineering in it unique to Pascal sounded considerably brighter than the Icepower based monos.  The Red Dragon amps (both flavors) WERE very dynamic, a little threadbare in the midrange and while they weren't bad, especially for the money, I wouldn't be able to live with them so back they went.  I wanted to try some Class D stuff because I actually had pretty good experience with some of the earlier Bel Canto Products, that is the 300M and the 300S amps.  Those amplifiers did alot "right" at low and moderate volumes but at high volumes they seemed to struggle and compress a bit.  Not a good permanent match.  That's why I had HIGH hopes for the new Bel Canto Ref 600s.  Those hopes were quickly dashed by my finding that in my system the Ref 600s, while having a unique immediacy to the sound and being very dynamic and having a very fleshed out nice midrange and lower midrange and bass, seemed to be fairly significantly recessed throughout the upper midrange and I blame that tonal anomaly for the lack of "air" in the presentation.  Very dynamic, imaged exceedingly well but no cigar on the Ref600s.  I couldn't live with them.  Then the Bryston went in for four days and it was a breath of fresh air.  Extremely neutral, beautiful delicate highs, very good (but not great) imaging, great bass both taut and tuneful, never ran out of gas even when driving the speakers louder than I'd normally.  The only thing about the Bryston is that at high volumes I found listening to them a little fatiguing.  They seem (to me) to be great studio or lab appliances and if you want total utter neutrality the Bryston may be your best bet.  I will also say I heard the Bryston squared series many years ago and thought they were hard and brittle.  With the new cubed series that problem is largely gone and the highs are beautifully rendered, cymbals shimmer and everything has the right timbre without being overly etched.  But its definitely in no way a "romantic" view into the music.  Listening to orchestral music the Bryston was mid to mid-rear in the hall, there was no forward midrange that in other amps something shifts the perspective a little closer to the stage.  So The Bryston is still in the running, and I'm looking to try one of the XA series Pass products but I'm still deciding on which one(s) to go with for the trial.  I'll report back on my findings.  I hope this is at least somewhat helpful.  Its difficult to adequately describe (for me anyway) in words the differences between the amplifiers but I'll continue to try.

Welcome! pwhinson
the CS 2.4 is a honey of a loudspeaker. Very easy to drive and matches gear easily. I will second Bryston gear specifically with the CS 2.4 and CS 2.4SE.  Thank You for sharing your aural experience w/ Bel Canto, Red Dragon. The 4B3 is on my must demo list. It will be fun to compare a 4B-ST/4B-SST and 4B-SST2, all of which, I have spent much time. Those sonic signatures are still ingrained in my mind.
Air, decay, space of instruments, texture and timbre are the most important characteristics portrayed by any Power amp. I look forward in reading more about you and your system.
Happy Listening!

Good to see you - brayeagleThank You for sharing so much of your personal life and Audio journey.You have lived some kind of life, including World Travel as it pertains to music, at large. An Audiophile and refined Gentleman of our hobby at its core. May we all live and prevail to the age of 95. I would not wish to go any sooner frankly speaking.

Happy Listening!

Currently I'm driving my pair of Cs 3.6 with a McCormack DNA-2 and find the performance very enjoyable even at very low volume, dynamic sound with right presence of bass, clear and refined mids and highs, I can say I'm very satisfied!
Happy to be a (Italian.. :-)  ) member of this virtual Thiel's  family.... and ever thanks Jim, your genius will live forever.

One more thought for folks on a budget.  Bel Canto 300S amps can be had for around $700 on the used market and are a good match for the Thiels and might even change your mind about Class D.  To my ears its better than powering them with 90% of the lower priced  solid state gear out.

Great system Silvanik, my favorite all-time speakers!

I promise i do not work for PS Audio, but if their BHK amps are in the budget,   they should be auditioned.   I find them to be a  fantastic match with my current 3.7's and my former 2.7's. 

hi Jafant,  i am a huge PS fan.  I have a new P15 power regenerator on the way to me and it should be here soon.  I think those are a must have for most systems as they do so much good with no harm at all to the sound.  The unit that it is replacing,  the P10,  made such a great difference in the sound.  Much more open and expansive and detailed.

pwhinson - thanks for the insight into how the Bel Canto Ref600s sound with the 2.4s; it seems Class D amps are generally not favored for Thiels but this is the first time I have heard details as to why for any specific make/model, and I have been wondering about these amps specifically because of their generally excellent reviews.  I also wonder about the PS Audio Stellar M700s (or even the S300) for the same reason.  Anyone else out there with ears-on experience with other Class D amps paired with Thiels?

I caution that we should distinguish between makes & models rather than commenting on "class D amps" in general. A lot of progress has been made with switching rates and filters so that some class D amps are leagues ahead of other class D amps.

Tom, aren't the smartsubs a class D switching amplifier? I was always curious about the power output at lower impedance.

Well after reading everything I can lay my hands on relating to Pass I had pretty much decided on a pair of XA60.8’s. That is until I spoke again to Mark at Reno Hifi and Kent at Pass who BOTH steered me away from the XA series and toward an X150.8. This was not a "gentle" steering that was a rather opinionated steering toward the X series. I’ve never had a retailer before talk me out of spending $10K in favor spending $5K but that what Reno did and also what Kent at Pass did. NOW, I like the idea of a slightly softer, highly dimensional liquid tube like sound and that’s why I was considering the XA series. But both Kent and Mark seemed to think that the X series was the better match for Thiels. I’m a little stunned but I think I’m going to follow their advice and try an X150.8. Anyone else with opinions on the matter please chime in. They did clarify one thing: that if you DO go with the XA series they both though the 60.8 would be right amp in the series for Thiel 2.4s. In the X series, they favored the X150.8.  I realize all this sounds quite odd because most of you are saying just LISTEN and see what you like best.  Well there's no Pass dealer within even a reasonable driving distance of Atlanta so that's not possible.  Yes I COULD order both an x150.8 and a pair of XA 60.8s and return the ones I don't like but we're talking $200 in shipping for each amp, each way so that ads up in a hurray.  Still..... might actually do it.

pwhinson...

I also did business with Mark at Reno on two X150.5 amps and to say that he runs a class operation is an understatement. 

At the time I had a pair of CS3.5’s. (the amps were purchased at different times)  Like the first time I heard my first Thiels (2.2) I barely returned to my listening position before I went “wow.”

From top to bottom that amp just clutched the music in a way no previous amp had managed to; although I forget which preamp I had at that time it was a tube preamp.  The 3.5’s had a new lease on life in so many ways. (yes, I employed the bass eq at all times)

i have not heard the X150.8 but I’m sure it’s a fine match.  

Enjoy!

Robin -  Yes, the SmartSubs are Class D. Jim began working on those amps with a very talented designer at/from Vifa in the late 80s. They put quite a bit of sophistication into those designs, which were done in the early dark ages of Class D. Impedance requirements are less of an issue when the entire amp-speaker is modeled  in toto. I use a single SS1 and a pair of SS2s in my studio and love them. I am searching for a good repair solution for them.

I have heard that Jim considered Class D suitable only for bass due to inherent topology constraints. But, a lot has advanced more recently. I have heard recent pro-audio class D amps, and I would not consider such for my music use, just because, no real experience, but an inclination toward a topology with more inherent wow. I am intrigued by what PS is doing (thank you ronkent) . . . a tube input before a mosfet output stage seems potentially great. 

Regarding Pass, Nelson is a brilliant designer in my opinion. Pass and Thiel shared equipment and insights beginning in the late 70s. I would expect Kent's opinion about synergy to be extremely well-informed.

Well, I'm glad to share with you my full (actually very simple!) system, as already said it's composed by Thiel C3.6 loudspeaker, McCormack DNA-2 amp, Sony HAP Z1ES and a handmade (by me) passive volume control, only one input, based on a TKD 2511 series pot with remote control. In order to avoid any kind of interference from the power supply of the pot motor I used a 9V battery to supply  it .
The internal hd of the Z1ES is loaded with Flac, Wave and DSD files, to me this machine sound superbly but  probably not very  common between audiophile community, the DAC quality and the very short internal signal path make the trick, it cost around 2000$ but to get the same performance you have to compare it with a dac three four time its value.... in my opinion, furthermore no computer need, just one box solution, great!

silvanick...

The HapZ1es is a truly excellent piece.  I got mine “used” from a fellow member here on the site for $1200 - which they currently fetch now.  VERY worth one’s while.  

What I enjoyed about it most was it’s simplicity.  I didn’t want a “computer” or a computer interface anywhere near my stereo.  I had a Bluesound Vault2 prior to that but had difficulty in getting it set up correctly so...off it went.  The ease of loading my cd collection was very much appreciated - a cheap Apple usb cd drive did the trick.  While the Sony and every other server/player/streamer is slooooow in doing so, the HAP excelled at adding my tunes via WiFi as well. That too was slow but I could slap many tunes there and batch load.  Really well made product.  

jafant...

Yes, I had a BAT VK3i preamp with that Pass for a little while. (cheap seats model from BAT)

In retrospect I believe I preferred ARC by just a hair. Hard to remember exactly why but IMHO the Audio Research player somewhat “brighter” than the BAT - which I prefer overall. Thiels “ too bright ?”   My butt!

Kudos to both manufacturers however in that on the used market they get pretty stable price-wise.  I sold both my ARC and BAT preamps at or close to the price I paid for them.  (Excluding the cost of the tubes, obviously) Most of the other things I’ve sold here I took a 10-15% depreciation on. 

BAT & Pass Labs match very well. 

Good to see you- silvanik
nice system. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.Happy Listening!

oblgny
which ARC model?  You have had some sweet gear over the years.I really enjoy reading about all of the gear that has resided in your system.
Happy Listening!

Someone bought my Thiel 3.7s.



Fortunately the buyer is arranging pick up from my house, where they will be put on a pallet by the shipping company.



That has still of course left me with packing them in to their boxes. Wow...not easy! It took a loooong time just to get the first one in to it’s box, with some trial and error along the way. After hours, the top totally fitted and taped up madly, it turned out the bottom of the speaker wouldn’t quite fit all the way in to the box. Rob Gillum was very helpful in advising me through this issue to the right solution (which of course, my fault, meant unboxing the damned thing and re-doing everything).

I lost count of the number of times I muttered under my breath "Never another big speaker...never another big speaker...."

(That is, until, some other big speaker catches my eye. But I’m pretty sure this has cured me of getting another big ol’ heavy speaker, as wonderful sounding as the 3.7s have been).

boy do i understand that Prof:  and what is funny is that compared to a lot of what is out there now, even 3.7's are not that big or heavy. 

Quite true, Ron.
In fact, ironically the much smaller Joseph Perspective speakers I'm contemplating are almost as heave as the 3.7s (just over 80 lbs, vs 91 lbs for the 3.7s).

Joseph is one of the very few brands at this point i would consider for new speakers, along with the upcoming PS Audio speakers.  But since i just got the 3.7's and they are finally broken in (they sound great), i best quit looking around.

The 3.7s are kind of difficult to get in the boxes, I've done it twice I think.  They're only around 100 lbs, though.  I replaced a pair of B&W N802s with the 3.7s and I almost killed myself getting the B&Ws up the basement stairs.  My back was messed up for a couple of weeks.  I had to get them around a corner and those stairs have a big lip so every stair was hard.  

Now that I think about it I have a number of heavy speaker moving memories.  I've moved my Velodyne dd18 a number of times and that thing is unpleasant to carry.  I bought it as a demo from a closing tweeter when I was in my twenties.  I hadn't planned on buying anything but I went into the store to see if there were any screaming deals and there it was for 60% off.  I remember when the sales guy was helping me get it in my car I told him I paid the same amount for the sub that I did for the car.  You gotta have your priorities straight.  I carried it into the basement, out of the basement into an apartment, out of the apartment into another basement, out of the basement and up the stairs in another place.  Finally, down the stairs and into the back of the family room where it is now.  

Right after college when I was still living with my parents I bought an Infinity HPS1000 from ubid.  I carried that 100 lb thing up the fire escape to the third floor.  I was excited enough I probably could've done it with broken arms and legs.  I had always wanted ATCs but I was never willing to shell out the money for one of the big active three ways.  When a pair of 110s came up a few years back for an obscene price I jumped on them.  I picked them up at the distribution center with my infant in the minivan.  They loaded the pallet with a forklift.  I got home and I carried those ridiculously heavy things into the living room to try out.  A few months later I dragged them up the stairs to a bedroom that we used as a family room.  Then down the stairs and into the family room where they are now.


I bet a lot of us have stories of physical pain we've endured due to our attachment to hearing music reproduced well.

what a great story.   actually i find moving small but heavy things like a big amp to be tough.  at least with a speaker, two people can carry it at the same time (if you are lucky enough to have someone to help).  I think however,  i will not ever own one of those behemoth Magico or Wilson speakers.  the 3.7's are mean enough to move around. 
PS: Boxing up the 2.7's with help from the guy that bought them,  was pretty easy.

Effort actually goes into minimizing the weight of the speaker. Each element: panels, braces, driver structures and diaphragms, etc. tries to get as stiff as possible per unit mass, in order to drive resonances higher in frequency where they are harder to stimulate, do less damage and are damped more quickly and effectively. Adding up all the mass-saving elements of the design process, the speaker is considerably lighter than it might have been without such attention.

Agree guys on the heavy stuff.  As we get older and “wiser” the heavy stuff seems to get...well heavier and less appealing.  And injuries last longer!

I am convinced my Mcintosh 501’s caused my hernia.  Probably not as hernias happen over time, but man they are heavy.  Like Ronkent mentions, amps are the worse.  The 501’s only weigh in at 98lbs but are so darn dense and compact it’s like lifting a boulder!

Agreed about amps. When I had to take my CJ monoblocks in for repair that was nasty. My back didn’t feel well for a while afterward.

And I know some of the giant solid state behemoth amps are a whole different ball game. You need to keep a spare forklift handy.

I was at a local dealer's and tried to lift a Constellation amp.   could not even budge it.  my PS amp weighs about 85 lbs and that is a gracious plenty.

BOXING THE THIELS: A Sort Of Tutorial:

As this is something of a knowledge dump for Thiel speaker owners, I figure I may as well relay my recent packing experience with the big 3.7s. Who knows, maybe it will come in handy for someone down the line selling their Thiels, or even shipping them to be serviced. I include advice from Rob Gillum of coherentsourceservice who helped guide me through some of this.

At least in case of the larger Thiel speakers like the 3.7, they were shipped upright strapped to a pallet, from Thiel. That’s also how I received my second hand pair of 3.7s.

When unboxing...take photos! For reminders during re-boxing at some point.

Here’s how packing my 3.7s went:

Placed the blue foam fitted base (which has plywood attached to the bottom) on the floor, and then placed in the speakers standing upright into that base.

Secured the grills to the speaker. Rob mentioned a couple of large rubber bands that would go around the speaker securing the grills for shipping. I presume those are normally supplied in the shipping but I guess I never got any. So I simply made long rubber bands by attaching a series of smaller ones around the speaker.


Next I did a couple layers of thick bubble wrap around the speaker.

Then placed the plastic bag (comes with shipping) over the speaker.

Next, carefully slipped box over the upright speaker. NOTE: As recommended by Rob, I made sure the box side with the serial number and finish description were at the BACK of the speaker. Doing this helps as a reminder as to which way the speaker is oriented in the box, so if you have to lay it down you can make sure it’s going on it’s back, vs mistakenly laying it with the drivers facing down.

Placed in the 4 corner braces in to the corner of the speaker box. (They slip right down past the blue-Styrofoam, in between the corner of the blue foam base and the inner speaker box).

Put the molded Styrofoam stabilizer on the top cap of the speaker.

The Styrofoam base has on top 4 molded indents in to which the spikes for that speaker are placed. I placed them in there securing with some blue-tack and then packing tape over those spikes, to prevent any shifting during shipping. (Shouldn’t happen of course if the box is kept upright. Though you have to tilt it anyway - see last step).

Closed up the top, secured the box flaps with packing tape.

FINALLY: THIS is the part that threw me initially. I now had to seal up the bottom box flaps, which meant tilting the speaker on to the ground on it’s back. BUT....when tilting the speaker to it’s back, the speaker slips out a bit, so the bottom base board is sticking out. That sucker will NOT be pushed back in when the speaker is just lying on it’s back. We tried tilting the bottom of the speaker box up a bit to try to shuffle the end in, but it wouldn’t budge. My intuition was that I wouldn’t want to tilt the box upside down as the speaker wasn’t made to have it’s weight upside down.

But....that was my mistake. (And I’m trying to save anyone else from this mistake).

Rob then told me the top cap was very strong, and it was fine to tip the box upside down, speaker on to it’s head, and in fact you have to in order to get the speaker fully in. So we did that and...viola! It worked. The speaker only finally shuffled all the way in to the box once it was vertically upside down.

After which we could seal up the bottom of the speaker box with packing tape.  Then return the speaker to standing upright.

And that is the tale of boxing one speaker.


I have another one to box this weekend.

Prof:  thank you so much.   i have printed that out and will save it for that fateful day when they leave my home.

prof

Re: Those really heavy amplifiers.

 Cajole a neighbor's youngster into doing  the heavy lifting.
   (worked for me)

Saves a trip to the Orthopod.

Happy Friday- All.

i cajole my girlfriend into helping me move things.   she strong like bull.

That heap funny.

ronkent  whatever you do don’t marry her!

Pops:  too funny.  she is very sweet but is very strong.  not that big actually,   maybe 135 lbs.   But at age 65,  and two marriages,  i doubt there will be a third one.

For what it is worth,  I am totally smitten with my new PS Audio P15 power plant.  here is my review that i Posted on their site.:
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-review-of-the-new-p15-power-regenerator/6712/14

You will need to scroll to the top to read my review as the link takes you to the bottom of the page

Anyone tried a PrimaLuna amp?  Each time I visit a hifi store, I leave smitten by a tube amp, many of which won't fit into my current audio budget (looking at you BAT and PS Audio!). Last weekend it was the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, curious to hear about any listening experiences with this or any other lower cost tube amps (Rogue, for example) to pair with my 2.3s.

Good to read - prof
I know that the new owner of your CS 3.7 loudspeakers will enjoy them.Perhaps he will join us here?  Happy Listening!