@jafant I was streaming this on TIDAL or Qobuz though I assume the CD or LP should be the same. It is very nice sounding release. I listened to it late last night on my headphones and loved it.
The passage that is giving my CS3.7’s a hard time is at 39 seconds onwards where George starts humming. That is what I meant by a ’hot’ sounding sonic. I think every time he hums my COAXs gets distorted.
I would tend to believe I have some damage but it sort of defiles explanation given how the speakers are used. |
Beetle
I have to ask , where any of the values on your resistors, capacitors
or inductors changed ?
When researching inductors of the same value both larger gauge wire
and foil both had less resistance .
As TT pointed out that those resistance changes would require
chnages on the crossovers .
The difference in ERSE 2.2mH 18 wg .781ohm and Solen's .76ohm
is small but it still has me concerned ( especially after TT's info ) .
Most likely I'll end up using ERSE and after TT's wire experiments
I'm going to install Cardas 18awg solid enamel coated wire , covering it with a cotton sleeve for the mid/tweeter speakers while keeping the Cardas stranded 15.5awg for the bass .
This turned into a more complicated project than I hoped .
Rob |
Beetlemania may have directly compared coils to coils I did not make this comparison as I replaced all caps and coils at the same time. Not possible, with so many simultaneous changes, to isolate the sonic differences from coils. I spent close to four months elapsed time making changes, allowing burn-in, and making sonic comparisons in mono with the modified and “reference” channel. 1) OEM FST boards (sandcast resistors) to FST with Mills MRAs 2) FST with Mills to Masonite boards with Clarity CSA throughout, Mills, and “Lex” or Erse foil coils, the latter on feed positions (ie, everything different except Mills) 3) New boards with and without Multicap bypasses on coax feeds 4) 160 versus 250V caps on woofer shunts (I heard a difference) 5) OEM hookup wire and binding posts versus Cardas wire and binding posts 6) Single versus biwire from amp I would not lose sleep over unavailability of six nines coils. If you have these in your classic Thiels, great! If you have FST, see if Rob Gillum has “Lex quality” or buy the best you can. I mean, we’re talking about speakers 10-30 years old that were modestly priced to begin with. Sonic improvements from better caps and resistors are notable even if I can’t really speak specifically to coils. That said, IMO, it’s worth putting foil coils in the feed position as these are not expensive. |
TomTweak - these speakers seem chock full of exotic solutions. Have they been submitted for review, or do you have any white papers or third-party commentary?
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yyzsantabarbara
is this a CD or LP set? I have the CD set arriving soon and can test on a fellow Audiophile's CS 3.7 speakers. Stand by until one of the CS 3.7 owners on the Panel chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening! |
I would like at ask the help of anyone that has the same COAX driver as on the Thiel CS3.7. Today when I was listening to the new George Harrison's ALL THINGS MUST PASS (50th Anniversary / Super Deluxe) I heard something from my RIGHT COAX driver that makes me think it is damaged.
At 39 seconds into the song HEAR ME LORD (Disk 2) I hear some distortion from the RIGHT COAX driver. I can reproduce it every time on the CS3.7. However, I cannot reproduce it on my RAAL SR1a headphones nor KEF LS50. The RAAL is hooked up to almost the same setup except for amps. On the RAAL I can sense that at 39 seconds there is a 'hot' sonic passage but the RAAL does not sound distorted.
The 2 COAX on the LEFT and RIGHT are only about 8 months old and never played loud. So I would be surprised if they are damaged. A bummer if it is but I can replace them myself. |
Tom Thiel...All new drivers and crossover design and components in the same cast granite cabinet with port extension and improved mechanical resonance tuning.
Same Sonoran Signature wire with Micro Bearing but now with Cardas speaker connectors. I plan on treating all connections with the 1260 Elixir from High Fidelity Cables..this product is remarkable. I will also treat the tensile leads with this near super enhancer. Tom |
Rob - the new ClarityCap "purity and purity plus" caps do not yet exist. You may PM me regarding additional details, but don't look for them in the marketplace in 2021.
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Thank You Tom T
Your knowledge and information keeps the Thiel legend alive
and looking towards the future .
So far only Rob's stock of ERSE coils ( which may or may not be 5-9s )
and Solen are the only 18 and 20awg coil available .
I've looked for the " new " Charity capacitors but have been not able to find any info yet , but no problem I'm still working on dimensions
and the fitting of the larger upgrading capacitors
on the crossover boards .
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Jazzman - as a point of record, the 2.2 never suffered any production changes. This may be unique in Thiel's history. The drivers remained extraordinarily stable throughout its 7 year x 4000 pair run and no crossover changes were deemed necessary to fine tune the design.
TomTweak - if those 8 gauge coils are for an existing design, their effective series resistance will be much lower than smaller gauge wire. You may need to compensate to keep the crosspoint and level as it was designed.
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Rob - this wire issue deserves more fleshing out.
CDA101 is 99.999%CDA102 is 99.99%CDA110 is 99.9%There are other requirements for each gradeAnnealed Copper is less conductive than these grades, which are all Electrolytic Tough Pitch-at the pinnacle of conductivity for hardness.
Regarding ERSE's CDA101. As you know, I've been playing detective to study what would have been obvious at Thiel Audio, which I left in 1995. I have good inside sources, most of whom either never knew, don't remember or don't have access to relevant records.
What I know: AcoustaCoil (later absorbed by ERSE) produced all our CDA101 coils since 1978. State of the art. When trying to get a definitive statement from them regarding their website claim of CDA101 - I didn't get a straight answer. I got diverted to Barbara in sales (who seems to run the show) who went to engineering who came back with the answer a couple weeks later of "ETP / CDA110-special. Now, let me float some conjectures.
ERSE along with ScanSpeak and most everyone else makes most of their world goods in China with FST being a prime source. My conjecture is that the Chinese wire plants are using CDA110-special and that is why the "answer" to my query came back that way. However, I also know that ERSE makes their custom coils for the American Market at their Cleveland plant. My conjecture is that those coils are indeed CDA101 as stated on their website and consistent with our long history with them.
I can't prove that and really don't have the will to drill down - there's only so much time. But for discussion, let's suppose that's the case.We know that the 3.7 XOs went to FST some time around #500 (no hard evidence yet.) We know the resistors and caps were CYC clones of Thiel's ERSE and Solen originals. We know that Jim "approved" them. We also know that direct comparison of those components in the 2.4 illustrated the original Thiel parts being "better", as discussed previously in this thread. We know the FST coils look decidedly inferior to ERSE coils. I have not yet made a direct sonic comparison. Beetlemania may have directly compared coils to coils - I don't remember.
We also know that all CS2.7s were made in Lexington with original parts including ERSE coils and resistors, Solen caps and Masonite boards. It is possible that the reported fluidity and grace of the 2.7 might be in part due to that factor of All Lexington build practice.
To the other point of foil and/or stranded - I have used some ERSE foil coils, but not directly compared to (known to be CDA101) ERSE coils in the 2.2. I have not used stranded. Regarding both foil and stranded, they make a difference in resistance and capacative reactance - so those changes would have to be compensated in the XO. I do not yet have the chops to make those compensations, so I haven't gone there in my development work.
That's about it for now. TT
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Thank You theaudiotweak Tom
Rob
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I purchased Solen Litz inductors for my new speaker rebuild..both 8 gauge 7 strand on the woofer
49 strand on the tweeter.
New term for me is linear inductance. Value of inductance over a much wider bandwidth than virtually any other inductor type either solid 8 gauge or 10 gauge ribbon this according to Chris at Solen. The linear bandwidth of the 49 strand for the Via Wave SRT ribbon tweeter is 35k 7 times that of the 7strand for the woofer. And the copper purity is 5 9's..The inductors are being cryo'd today when finished I will heat treat at low temp and then seal with a new to me paint with no metal but with much limestone some clay and a small amount of carbon black. Report later. Tom
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Tom Your information about erse coils is depressing and frustrating but on their website they state they are using CDA 101 and Solen states they are using ≥ 99.99 % Purity Annealed Copper. But so far these are the purest copper coils I can find , strange how Capacitors and wires are improving but not coils other than maybe foil coils over wire ones . Rob |
'the rabbit hole' is a good analogy.
Thiel is the white rabbit.
And there I go.
Any thoughts on the Audio Research LS25 mkII or the Audible Illusions Modulus 3A?
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johnhh
In a prior system, I enjoyed, Rotel and B&W 805 speakers circa early 2000's.
Happy Listening! |
Trust me johnhh. This is where the rabbit hole goes deeper. Enjoy being enabled and enlightened |
johnhh
Thank You for the clarification. If you enjoy the Rotel sound- seek a matching Rotel pre-amp.
The RB 1582 will act as a fine start until you can upgrade.
Happy Listening! |
Jafant,
Sorry, I was not clear. I want to build a system around the CS2.7.
JohnH |
johnhh
Welcome! Good to see you here. Nice gear on-hand.
Are you looking to build a system around the CS 1.5 or CS 2.7 loudspeakers? Both?
I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and system(s).
Happy Listening! |
How many different materials did Thiel make cabinets out of over the years? I know most are MDF but my 3.7s are curved plywood(I'm pretty sure, some kind of layered, curved wood product, very rigid.) and aluminum front. The Powerpoints were aluminum, as were the viewpoints and powerplanes. I believe the original 7 had concrete baffles. I tend to follow ATC as well and they've followed a similar trajectory. They've made a bunch of speakers out of aluminum but have returned to MDF. They've been making a lot of curved cabinets in recent years but still some kind of wood composite.
My guess is that for companies that aren't making cost-no-object products, wood of one type or another is the best option. If you're a luxury brand, it's a different world. The main reason you make cabinets exotically is so sales people who don't understand anything can appeal to the vanity of rich consumers who don't understand anything. They have zero understanding of the tradeoffs, importance of various factors, etc. The sales process is just some sort of ridiculous social ritual. |
Gentlemen,
I am not sure you guys are a support group or an enabler group.
The CS1.5 I have in the wood shop proved excellent, tho enchanting or delightful or wonderful might be a better word. To the point that the wife wants the B&W 9NTs replaced.
I have a verbal on some CS2.7s, manf numbers in the 380 range.
I have an existing Rotel RB-1582mkII that I don't have the funds (right now) to replace.
I have to replace my Pioneer SX1050 preamp and keep it under $2,000 closer to $1,000 would be best. What should I be looking for?
I might be able to get an AR LS25 mkII for that budget, probably not. Or an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A.
I use Roon for flac files and Qobuz. Bifrost for a DAC.
Any suggestions for a preamp?
Thanks. John H |
tomthiel,
I'm not a speaker builder so regarding Delignit as bracing I do not have that data.
I'm a US manufacturer in the motorsports industry and we are the authorized dealer for Delignit for motorsports in the US.
When a Formula! or Indy car hit over 200 mph the delignit holds up for the skids and bracing in these cars so I would have to think it would perform well with a moving speaker cabinet with nowhere near the velocity of a Formula 1 or Indy car.
I'm game to experiment as I have the CNC flat panel routers to cut the Delignit into what ever shape it needs to be. |
Max - I consider Delignit to be a wonderful material and would be interested in what you know about it as a bracing material.
I have had some success adding cross struts of bamboo (in the league of Delignit) to the MDF shelf braces, which keep the struts from vibrational deformation - a nice pairing of attributes.
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Let me rephrase my previous statement. I don't think the Thiel cabinets are poorly engineered. My issue is MDF. Granted spruce fibered MDF is a cut above the other grades.
Spruce bracing would seem more appropriate with Delignit framing/structure.
I deal with delignit on a daily basis so very familiar with what it is capable of.
I appreciate your input. |
Max - I had never considered that Thiel's weak link was its cabinets. Let's put that idea on the back burner for now.
Regarding Spruce as a cabinet material - that has merit. Spruce is an extraordinary wood, landing it as the soundboard of choice for many musical instruments. My primary business after Thiel Audio has been producing tonewood for high-end instruments. Red Spruce (the holy grail of tonewoods) is my specialty. As a grown material it's hard to beat for stiffness to weight and so forth. But as a cabinet panel, it doesn't measure up all that well. It is a naturally resonant material, which is what you want to avoid in an enclosure. It is highly directional, being 7-10 times as stiff along the grain as across. Its micro-structure encourages transmission of sound through its thickness, another thing we're trying to avoid. And even though it is relatively stable for as a lumber species, it still expands and contracts enough with humidity changes that the cabinet would change characteristics through the year and eventually crack. So, all in, the idea doesn't check my boxes.
Among the materials science aspects of Thiel's cabinet walls, I chose a Canadian MDF made entirely of Spruce fiber, for the reasons you cite. We then laminated veneer on both sides with a structural adhesive, creating an I-beam effect with about double the stiffness of an unlaminated panel and more tha 1.5x that of an exterior-only veneered panel.
Dr. Toole and his proteges at the Canadian Research Institute looked at cabinet material candidates regarding stiffness to weight, stability and damping, and landed on MDF as the closest to ideal. PSB, et al made a case of MDF being "better" than most of the exotics out there. I wouldn't go that far. But putting cost into the equation tilts things significantly toward MDF being a pretty good substrate.
All that said, my present design work uses other materials to augment and upgrade the basic MDF cabinet.
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tomthiel,
I appreciate the info and no surprise here that the other materials you mentioned yielded a better cabinet.
I met a gentleman years ago who sourced material for Gibson. He was in his late 80's when I met him and I purchased AA/AAA Stika Spruce in widths up to 10" and thicknesses of 1.5". Grain is 25-30 per inch so this is stuff you would see on the front of their guitars and I have it in lumber sizes.
I've entertained the idea of a cabinet with the spruce as it is a very stable wood and high strength to weight ratio with Delignit bracing.
Sanded and multiple coats of clear coat the wood is very beautiful in its natural state with no pigments added.
My thought was/is the cabinets in Thiel speakers was the weakest link and if this was ever pursued what would the end result be? |
Max - I use Delignit / panzerholtz in piano restoration work - and love it.The earliest Thiels from 1975 to 1985, up to the CS3.5 used various products. The 01 and 02 were medium density particle board. The 03 and 03a were Baltic Birch (actually the higher quality FinPly). The CS2, 3 and 3.5 were high density particle board walls with high density particle board baffles. The model 2 and 3 had internal spruce struts inside the cabinets. I consider all these models to be of superior materials and outcome than the later MDF cabinets.
MDF was chosen for its consistency, universality of sourcing, flatness for laminating and gluing, and machinibility. With well engineered internal shelf braces, it was adequate for the job. Note that Thiel was producing extremely complex cabinets in a production environment with no room for anything to go wrong, and needing a universal material for feasible stock management. 1" MDF filled that bill. We were never a boutique, cost no object shop. Our finished products sold for sometimes a small fraction of what some manufactures lavished on their cabinets alone.
There are no CAD / manufacturing drawings available; but that may change in the future. I believe a more cost-effective retrospective approach might be to experiment with Panzerholtz, etc. as bracing material to quiet any cabinet wall resonances that can be identified. I am adding strategic long-grain spruce cross-braces to settle the enclosures, and have chosen torrified bamboo for bracing as a very high performance / cost effective candidate.
In the mid to late 80s, I experimented with various Corian-type products as well as honeycomb substrates with technical skins, curved panels and so forth. So much cost was added that we stayed away from them. We went to cast baffles machined with abrasive diamond tooling as an effective solution to affordable extreme rigidity It would have been very easy to double our manufacturing costs with multipliers applied for retail prices, and stray from our intended niche of phenomenal high value. Cost effectiveness was one of Thiel's evaluation lenses.
By the way, the CS3.7 / 2.7 returned to one of those 1980 experiments. The curved side panels are 17 ply birch laminates, using the material and its geometry for added rigidity and waveform propagation.
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nagirrocpt
Thank You for the system follow up. Good to read another fellow Marantz fan/owner.
What Cabling?
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel,
If this has been discussed in the is thread then please excuse as it would take me days to go over all the responses.
Do you know if what other cabinet materials Thiel tried and ultimately went with MDF.
I'm in manufacturing and have tried many different materials in speaker cabinets and MDF was my least favorite.
I fully understand MDF is stable and less prone to shift/move hence why many speaker companies use MDF.
If there are any CAD drawings for the CS2.4SE, CS2.7, CS6, and CS 7.2 I would be open to making a set of cabinets with Delignit/panzerholtz.
Extremely stable material. |
jafant,
My Krell/Thiel system is rounded out with a Marantz SA8005 SACD/CD player, Pro-ject Xpression TT, Ortofon w/2M blue, Pro-ject Tube box S PhonoPre. And I didn’t mention in the earlier post the SS1 Sub. The sub was acquired soon after I heard of Jim Thiel’s passing, and we know how that turned out for the company. We have always enjoyed this rig as it has the wife's thumbs up! |
sdecker
Thank You for citing the S/N on your CS 2.4 loudspeakers. Nice score on those low numbers.
Enjoy the Music!
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
Thank You for the introspective view on model CS 2.4 loudspeaker.
Very interesting information on Lexington boards vs. Masonite boards.
We all are looking forward to upgraded XO options in the future.
Happy Listening! |
sdecker - thanks for the input. My 220-230 estimate was from Rob’s memory. I’ll replace that estimate with your 611-12 old-style 2.4s.
Now, a thought about Lexington vs FST coils. It seems that one of the extenuating circumstances around taking XO production to FST was that our original coil wire became unavailable. As a reminder: we had "found" an aerospace communication wire in 1978 while developing the 03. It was 6-9s oxygen free, long crystal, slow drawn, polished wire. Its use in our coils was transformative. (Longer story embedded in this forum’s prior history.) Over the years, that wire was "degraded" to CDA101 (5-9s) with less stringent production values. Then CDA102 (4-9s), still a league above "normal" CDA110 electrolytic tough pitch magnet wire used in most applications and by most hi-fi manufacturers. ERSE tells me that in the mid-2000s those high conductivity, high purity wires became "unavailable" and were replaced by CDA110-special, which meets only the 99.9% / 3-9s spec, with special attention paid to extrusion, surface quality, etc.
Bottom line is that Lexington boards have at least CDA102, and older boards have CDA101 coils and they are wound to optimum aspect ratio, tensile pull and bonding formulation. These Lexington coils are world class. Coils on ’glass’ boards from FST are best presently available, CDA110 special, but certainly lesser than the Lex / Masonite board coils.
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Wow, I can't even let a week go by and this thread gains a couple more pages to catch up on...
I want to be the first (?) to agree with TonyWinga's 7/29/21 post of optimizing his CS6 that they parallel my experience with 2.3 and 2.4, and cover most of the basics for setting up any Thiels.
To TomThiel's 8/2 post that 2.4 XO production went to FST around SN 220-230 is at odds with my 2.4 SN 611-612 clearly having Lexington boards & parts as discussed here earlier -- unless you were referring specifically to 2.4SE? |
beetlemania
Always good to see you here as well.
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
et al., Over the years, I have noticed CS 2.4 and CS 2.4SE loudspeaker reviews disappearing from the net? Not that there were very many of each model published. Still, it is a strange occurrence?
I suspect other types of articles/reviews are deleted/removed as well.
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
Thank you for citing the S/N on your loaner CS 2.4 loudspeakers as well.
Happy Listening! |
duramax747
Thank You for the confirmation and follow up. From the beginning, there are/were not too many CS 2.4SE reviews. Incredible to read about those low S/N ! Enjoy the Music.
Happy Listening! |
tomic601
Good to see you here, as always. Thank you for the kind words.
Happy Listening! |
Max - what serial numbers are your straight 2.4s?
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Tom,
They are CS 2.4SE not 2.4 with sn#005/006.
I do have CS 2.4 but I am selling those as I waiting for buyer to come pick them up next week. |
I have to say this is one of the best, most civil and productive threads on Audiogon |
Max et al - #1&2 were usually kept in Thiel's music room and 3&4 at the farmhouse or insider rotation. You may very well have the earliest 2.4s out there in the world.
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Tom,
I found the review. It's Enjoy the Music in April/May 2009 and CS2.4SE not CS 2.4. |
beetlemania,
I doubled check and was wrong about the reviewer. It was Tom Lyle from Enjoy the Music in a April/May 2009 article. I thought they had the sn# mentioned in the article but I did not see it.
I do have his name and adderss @ enjoy the music on the box so I have the pair in the review which are the earliest ones I know that someone has.
Obviously there is a 001/002 and 003/004 that were made but never heard from anyone claiming to have possession of them.
When the opportunity presents itself I'll remove the passive radiator to confirm what the xover is. |
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Beetle and Duramax - I'd love to see pix or descriptions. I can supply the general MO for that time. The 2.4 was introduced in 2003, before Jim got sick. All hi-fi products were still being made in Lexington with components selected, developed and upgraded through the years. So, #005/006 would have Solen caps, ERSE 5-9s coils and resistors, teflon jacketed wire and masonite boards. In other words, what we consider "real Thiels". My notes say the 2.4 XO production went to FST around #220-230.
Also, the first (100 or so) units were treated as shake-downs with every unit going through an R&D type course of measurements and listening cross-checks in order to set the production measurement limits. Every Thiel speaker was tested in an anechoic tower with strict pass/fail limits which were developed via this test/listen process at the beginning of each product's life cycle. So, duramax's
CS2.4s would be the equivalent of "blueprinted" in the racing world.
Duramax - if you ever upgrade / hotrod those 2.4s, I would love to get the original crossovers as my laboratory reference for the model. I have a pair of late / FST (3729/30) 2.4s here on loan. Wouldn't it be interesting to compare early vs late?
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