@jonandfamily
Well congratulations to him on his Frankenthiel, He may like the sound, but he has changed the drivers as well as the crossover, so it is no longer a Thiel. It’s really surprising how many people thank that they can just freely substitute drivers other than the ones that the designer specified for the cabinet and crossover as it was originally designed.
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Are any of you following "Thiel Owners" on Facebook? Bill Kranhold just rebuilt his Thiel CS1.2s with new crossover and drivers. It sounds impressive to me. What do the other experts here think?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/129498082096524
His plan: (copy/paste)
"Ok, here we go!
This 1983 Theil CS1.2 was more than groundbreaking for it's time, with true time-coheirent cabinets and crossovers, and an ultra robust cabinet tuned to a really loe .52 Qts (even though it is ported) so it did not have to sit out 5' from a back wall to sound good. The price point was amazing, and the parts quality unheard of at the time. All hand soldered, it was nothing short of a sonic revolution. Everything Vandersteen tried to do without all the compromises.
I am re-purposing this speaker, using a tweeter similar to the CS 2.0 series (Morel, not Dynaudio) and using a woofer similar to the OEM (but more robust yet with a lighter moving mass than the Vifa).
What I have noticed dissassembling the Thiel: The cabinet is amazing. Thick as a brick! The crossover is very good, simple, point to point hand soldered, but, there was no mechanical contection (hooked, twisted) at any of the component joints. Wires just touched. Some of the signal path included very small 20 guage inductors, presumably to 'choke' down the signal and compress it a bit to increase power handling. There were also inductive resistors in the signal path. I won't be doing either of those things.
My crossover is similar, 6db series for the tweeter and woofer, with a 'Fs notch' filter on the tweeter (so I can cross it over lower) and a broad band notch on the woofer (to tame the rising output above 3k).
I will twist and solder everything, with only copper in the signal path, using non-inductive resistor in the L-pad on the tweeter and all 16ga inductors in the signal path.
Shown is the box construction, old crossover, old parts, new crossover schematic, new crossover board, new preliminary crossover, and some pics showing the back-winding of the original coils for re-purposing, etc.
The box tuning should be very close to the original, going down a few hz lower, but I can't be sure till I test it. I will tune the existing reflex port as needed.
I expect this speaker to sound very similar to the original, with a more open sounding tweeter, a faster woofer, and a tiny bit more power handling"
His reported results:
"Success!
Very pleased.
Very balanced, open, with a large image.
Tests well, with a 2db dip 1-2.5k, and rising HF output above 10k.
Used the same filter philosophy as Thiel, 1st on HF with anti-resonance, 1st on LF with impeadance compensation, but added a notch filter for the rising output of the SB driver. Re-used the Thiel 16 and 18 gauge coils, back-winding them to size. Went up in quality on the resistors and caps. Same exact damping and reflex tuning as the original.
It sounds good enough to reproduce a few more !"
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Sounds excellent! Thanks for the update Jafant.
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prof
I continue to enjoy and use AYRE AX-5 integrated amp with matching DX-5 universal player. It is a simple 2-channel system. Additionally, I rotate various CD and SACD players- Accuphase, Esoteric, Hegel, Luxman, Marantz and Parasound.
Happy Listening!
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@jafant
How is your system? Is it up and running and what gear are you using?
(More curious about amps, source etc, not cables...)
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tomthiel
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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Joe - you may send me a PM and I can bring you up to speed re Thiel Renaissance.
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Thank you jafant! It is very much appreciated. I'm a bit all over the map in terms of musical tastes. Louis Armstrong was famously quoted "There is two kinds of music, the good, and the bad. I play the good kind." I would like to think I listen to the good :) but mostly indie rock/country, experimental, international and jazz.
I also was stubborn listener of two channel music until a few years ago when I realized that I was spending more time with my family watching shows/movies than listening on my own. The 3.6s are now currently part of a home theatre setup with a SCS4 center channel. I just recently upgraded my amp to an Arcam pa240 for the 3.6s.
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joe_dittmann
Welcome! Good to see you here today. Stay tuned until one of our 3.6 Panel experts chimes in to address your query. I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes and System.
Happy Listening!
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Hi All
I am hoping to leverage the collective wisdom of this forum since I do not have the persevere to read through this whole thread. :) Although, I hope to in time.
I am the proud and only owner of a pair of 3.6s. The only modification I have made is replacing the ferrofluid a few years ago.
- Are there any stands or feet that folks recommend? They currently sit on a porcelain tile floor. I no longer have the original spikes and the bases are not in the best of shape so I will likely replace them.
- Given that I have had them for 30+ years, are there any other upgrades that I should consider?
Many thanks in advance for your help!
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Happy Friday! All (belated)
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thieliste
Thank You for the update. Good to read that Jadis is a sonic match for our beloved speakers. The Integrated Amp, has really progressed forward in the last 10 years.
Happy Listening!
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Hi guys, i now have my new Jadis DA88S integrated amp in silver finish driving my CS 3.7s with KT88 tubes.
Jadis class A tube power is spectacular with my Thiel speakers, much better than all SS amps i have tried to date.
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I can recommend the SCS4, as well as provide some background. The 'bookshelf' SCS4 was presented as a home theater product and as such contained solutions for that use. Its voicing is for an on-wall environment and therefore is bass-shy when placed on stands in the room. I believe (open to correction) that the T(tower) iteration is not re-voiced for in-room placement. That said, I find the SCS4 bass satisfying as-is, especially in your small room where bass management can be the greatest system challenge.
Early SCS4s were made in Lexington with polypropylene caps and hi-fi components. Later versions were made in China with less-than-best (in my first-hand experience) crossover components. The Thiel-designed driver was always made by FST in China and is first-quality. All the 'T's were made in Lexington to Thiel's high standards. But, as mentioned, the 'cabinet' is merely a stand and does not support lower or louder bass. (Unless the XO was re-tuned for in-the-room placement.
The SCS4 tweeter was the development workhorse for Jim's swansong CS3.7 tweeter. It employs his lifetime of knowledge and experience. It is magnificent. The lower / high-pass tweeter crossover is unique to the SCS model in that its entry slope is progressive. The first octave below the 2.5kHz cross-point is 6dB/octave, progressing to 12dB/octave to limit excursion to cope with soundtracks and so forth. Also, the traditional aluminum dome is mated with an aluminum voice coil former for heat dissipation, along with ferro-fluid. The problem of turbulent eddy-currents in conductive formers is managed by a longitudinal VC slit. Nice solution.
On a more general note, I am using the SCS4 as my development workhorse for future upgrades to apply to all extant Thiel products. Renaissance advancements include internal cabling, crossover layouts and components, and fluid-dynamic wave-launch enhancement. The SCS4 will be the first Thiel Renaissance product and the rollout will be retrofitting extant speakers. So, owning this model would put you in a position of early adopter for next generation authentic Thiel products.
The stock SCS4 / or SCS4T is a solid product. It is uniquely 'Thiel' in that it presents a time and phase coherent wavefront, albeit with somewhat more phase drift admitted than the hi-fi models. Its frequency and time domain performance is first-rate, and its aluminum baffled, beefy cabinet with rolled front edge does a good job. The single coaxial driver obviates the need for direct-centered and seated listening. You get coherence wherever your ears are. The 'problem' with the 'T' was its doubled price over the bookshelf version without performance advances. On the used market, that 'problem' nearly vanishes.
Let us know what you do.
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audiofilo123
Good to see you here today. Stay tuned until one of our SCS4T experts chime in to address your query. We have a few fans/owners of SCS4(T) speakers on The Panel.
Happy Listening!
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@audiofilo123, The SCS’s can be just the right Thiel’s for many small rooms.
The versions without the decorative only cabinet extensions of the “T” version are probably the preferred model though.
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I have the chance to buy a pair of mint condition SCS4T and I wonder if someone can share some users experiences.
I have a small dedicated listening room (190 sq feet) and perhaps it can work in such small space.
Thanks.
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jlm86
Watch Craigslist (CL) as well.
Happy Listening!
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jlm86
Welcome! Good to see you here today. There has never been a better time to purchase Thiel loudspeakers. Watch here, eBay and U.S. Audiomart on a regular basis for models- CS 2.3 or 3.6. I look forward in reading more abut your Musical tastes and System.
Happy Listening!
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I always look here for items for sale (right now the closest Thiels to Lexington KY are 1.2s in Cary NC about 7.5 hours of drive time) -
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Thank you, yes I saw those in NY...
Very nice...
Can't do the driving like before, else I'd be going...
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@jlm86
There is a beautiful set of 3.6's in NY state and a set of white 2.4's in Virginia ,
both are listed on Reverb and both are local pickup only ,
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Hello group...
Previous Thiel owner from Lexington KY!
Home to original Thiel offices, Jim and Kathy etc...
Very fond memories walking around production site looking at all the beautiful veneer that they created...
Anyway, now approaching 70, and diving back to nostalgia..
Looking for 3.6 or perhaps 2.3 for music room..
Pretty hard to find I see...but looking...
Plan on driving with Aragon 4004 mkII amp. Would like to find tube amp with remote control...(Yes, I know)
Anyway, happy listening..
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biannuzzi22
Thank You for the follow up- Brian.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
PM sent. Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the XO update. Good to learn that upgrade packages will be available this year. Your diligence and hard work are paying off. The Panel will be ready.
Happy Listening!
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last_lemming - about CS2.4 XO upgrade. That model has been done several times at various levels with good results. However, my explorations have revealed that Jim’s stock XO parts are quite well optimized per cost. A complete rework could cost as much as the entire original bill of materials. I have been working on some cost-effective substantive upgrades at moderate cost, all having to do with orderly propagation in the electrical and fluid dynamic realms.
Electrically we replace the input terminals with GR Research Electra tube terminals as well as the internal cable with something I have developed. We're presently searching for a manufacturer willing to take on its idiosyncrasies. I predict you’ll love it, and it will be available this year. The 2.4 has its crossover in the cabinet bottom with enough room to house larger, better caps, as well as away from the dirty fields generated by the drivers. We have addressed orderly wave propagation in the crossover layout with the circuits running linearly rather than dense-packed.
Also, I have developed a new cap with multiple sections in the Golden Ratio. It’s extraordinary and should be in production this year. And, you can replace your resistors with Mills MRA-12s, especially in the series-feed positions. I can help you identify or implement various aspects as you might choose via PM.
The fluid dynamic wave-launch solution is coming along nicely. We control the interface between the high-density energy at the driver / transitioning into the limp air mass in the room. The sonic improvements are as thrilling as they are unexpected. We are presently running beta tests on the SCS4.
January 2023, our efforts shifted focus onto the SCS4 due to its friendliness to upgrade work by multiple participants. All new solutions developed on the SCS4 will apply to all Classic Thiel models. The work as been long and slow, but progress is being made.
I can suggest what might be best for now vs wait for later.
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last_lemming
Good to see you here. Stay tuned until one of our DIY experts chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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Hey team. Been a while. I really don’t have the time or tenacity to find the info in this epic thread! But can someone post a link that most directly answers the question about upgrading the CS2.4 crossover and what parts are involved and if a how to exists that would be great!
also it’s been a bit but are there premade replacement crossovers I can just buy?
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I found out that my Thiel SS2 subwoofer’s amp was sending extra voltage to the drivers which caused one of them to blow. I am just going to drill a hole in the back and use an external amplifier. Does anyone have any recommendations on external subwoofer amps? Any suggestions on 500 watt drivers would also be greatly appreciated.
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Thanks everyone for the info about the SmartSub SS2. I am having a guy in Denver replace the drivers with ones that are more easily available. The amp might be going bad so I might get an external amp. I know this won’t make it a true Thiel product but I just want to find an easier way to keep this subwoofer. If anyone else has used different parts for a similar project please let me know.
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Same here i never toe in my 3.7s, this is definitely the best results i got but i'm lucky to have plenty of room from the side walls like about 6 feet.
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