I used Cardas “chassis wire”. These are Litz stranded and ends *must* be tinned in a solder pot. Cardas can do this but they charge something like $5 per end - ouch! So, I bought a cheap solder pot. My entire project used Cardas solder (which is leaded, I did all soldering outdoors or in my greenhouse). Woofer input is Cardas 15 ga + 17.5 ga (effective 14 ga), output to woofer is 15 ga. Coax input is Cardas15 ga, output to coax is 17.5 ga.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,494 responses Add your response
Can confirm that Cardas Audio has a pair of 3.7 although I don’t know if that’s the main speaker in their listening room. The person I spoke with was interested in my upgrade project and wants to be alerted to any upgrades that become available for the 3.7. Cardas hookup wire and binding posts were my final changes (and, perhaps, most extravagant expense). It was the icing on the cake, kinda snapped the sonic picture into a cohesive and clear soundscape. |
prof - black paint is typically carbon pigment, which is light-weight as pigments go. The issue would be added mass proportional to the extant moving mass. I suspect that in a woofer or midrange, the added mass would be functionally inconsequential, but in a tweeter it might matter. I'm interested enough to try a light misting coat on my CS1.6 woofers. I can sweep before and after and compare output including all harmonics and time domain performance. I'll use lacquer so I can wipe it off if necessary. |
Anyone looking for a pair of 2.3 coaxial drivers? I wish these were new/old stock 3.6 tweeters. I’d like to buy and compare unused aluminum tweeters with my new replacement soft dome tweeters. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisai53b-thiel-cs-2-3-full-range |
In the category of "audiophiles think of the craziest things..." I’ve sometimes wondered how possible it would be to alter the color of a speaker driver. As an example, take the white woofer of the 2.7 or the aluminum midrange. What would happen if you lightly spray painted them black or something? What, if any, sonic cost might be incurred? My intuition is that if it’s going to alter the sound it would do so more with the upper drivers (mid/tweeter) vs woofers. |
hifi28 - good memory, with of course, a back-story for fun. The crossover modification is at SN4901, May 1987, two years in. I don’t remember the exact change - I have only the revised layout from which I have derived the schematic. But I do remember the back-story. Let’s start with the end: the modification was very slight, making a change in the roll-out of the upper midrange. Generally Jim revisited designs to tweak crossovers to accommodate driver tendencies and burn-in factors that become apparent as time passes. Or if a driver gets a production change (such as adhesive, etc.), slight engineering updates may correct it. The CS2 was uniquely a completely stable product, having no such driver changes and requiring no real tweaks. Jim was pleased that he had gotten it right the first time out. Enter Larry Archibald, the fairly new publisher of Stereophile Magazine. Larry was supportive of our products, but always had the last word. He had written critically about the CS2’s upper midrange ’edge’ in various ways. It turned out, learned behind the curtain, that all of his listening to the CS2 had been without their (required) grilles because "he doesn’t listen with grilles". On a second round of review by one of his staff, Larry heard the CS2 with grilles and declared that "the problem had been fixed". Now enter Kathy Gornik, our co-founding marketing director whose job included press and public relations. Being an essentially political animal, she deemed fit to give Larry an ’out’ - by Jim ’fixing’ the crossover that Larry could point to as the remedy. Jim’s desire to have a product that needed no changes through its life took back seat to Kathy giving Larry permission to praise the upgraded performance without losing any face. I don’t know whether it would be possible to reconstruct who did what when, the exact change and so forth. I do not remember changing our archived CS2 reference samples. Bottom line: a small crossover change was made at serial number 4901 as well as adding the viscous rubber strips to mechanically unify the grille with the baffle. If anyone has access to an early CS2 and wants to send an XO photo noting component values, I’ll be glad to document the change. If anyone updates their CS2 crossovers, I’ll use the revised values. But the big deal is to use the grilles which include a tweeter wave guide and full baffle diffraction control which considerably upgrade performance. |
Thanks Tom!
roxy54, I don't like seeing speaker drivers generally, and I would find the 2.7 drivers - white woofer and shiny aluminum mid etc - particularly distracting. In a way I don't want to try them without the grills because I might hear "more detail" but still won't listen to them that way anyway. So I was mostly curious about Tom's answer. |
hey prof - who remembers what’s been asked and answered? We approached the speakers as part of the living / musc room; thus the veneer, hidden cable entries and grilles. All the later products used the grille frame and fabric as part of the design intent. The 01 had a foam grille, which was transparent enough not to matter much, but the foam did reduce diffraction a smidge. The fabric always knocks about 1/2 to 1db off the area about 4-8kHz. Many people gripe about Thiel’s being ’too bright’, while they use no grilles which indeed increases the brightness range above our intent. The 02 grille frame is counter-productive. It precedes our knowledge of diffraction and the frame increases edge diffraction. The 02 hotrod I am using to prove various technologies incorporates an elliptical rounded cabinet edge with no grille frame lip. An exception was the later speakers such as the 3.7 and PowerPoint with perforated metal grilles, which are claimed to be ’identical’ with or without the grille. The CS3 / 3.5’s stock grilles cause mild diffraction problems, which can be minimized with modifications. |
I think I may have asked before in this years long thread but... Are Thiel speakers generally designed to be listened with the grills on? I seem to remember the answer is "yes" and if so that would make sense, given the way Thiel grills seem to be designed "in to" the face of the speaker. That's the impression I have of my Thiel 2.7s as well. Though I've never listened to them with the grills off. Thanks. |
CS2 Chapter in Thiel History CS2 development began in 1984 after the game-changing introduction of the CS3 in 1983. The CS3 was the 4th iteration of the model 3 – equalized sealed 10” 3-way with bass response to 20Hz. It demanded a fairly large room, robust woofer, and a midrange to cover 7 octaves including its long in and out ramps. The model 3 spent significant budget on those very capable midrange, woofer and the equalizer to take it low. Its right price was considerably higher than what Jim wanted to charge. The model 4 filled smaller spaces with a bass limit in the mid 40s from a ported 6.5” two-way floor-stander. That format later became the CS1 series. The company needed something for smaller rooms with less demanding bass at significantly lower cost than the CS3. The CS2 was born from those needs. From the beginning its identity included trimming costs without sacrificing performance beyond bass extension, which extended to 35Hz. In fact, its midrange could be cleaner than the CS3 since its crosspoint came in at 800Hz rather than the model 3’s 400Hz. By this time we had established a strong working relationship with Vifa, who co-developed the 3.5” full-range driver for our midrange needs. Vifa and Jim also co-developed the woofer with some of his emerging motor geometries and techniques, even though it was still a conventional overhung design. A reflex woofer costs about half of a boosted sealed woofer because its low-frequency requirements stop at the port tuning. In 1984 all cabinet work was still conventional tablesaw work along with our newly acquired inverted router. The CS3 baffle was being sculpted with hand tools, at considerable cost. We developed the routable CS2 grille board as a wave-guide and diffraction control mechanism with considerable success, at very low cost compared to the CS3 baffle. Later when we bonded the grille to the baffle with rubber tape, it became even more effective. The port was nearly free compared to the $ multi-hundred equalizer, which audiophiles wanted to be more transparent (and therefore expensive.) The CS2 load was a very resistive 6 ohms minimum, and moderate 87dB sensitivity, making it quite easy to drive. We focused our collective energies to cost-effectively producing this low-cost / nearly full range, coherent source for smaller spaces. The introductory price was $1350/ pair against the CS3’s $1950. It met its market and sold consistently and well. Its 1991 replacement CS2.2 was driven by our developing CNC capability for a more sophisticated cabinet to support new driver technologies developed for the 1988 CS5.
The CS2 served as a sophisticated, elegant entry-level speaker for a broad audience. It sold about 7500 pairs over its 5 years, the most of any Thiel model.
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hifi28 - your speaker positioning will be experimental with all things considered in your room. An openable window can be a huge asset in that centered position. Sound waves through air accumulate as pressure zones in the corners and centers. Opening the window centered between the speakers might alleviate that pressure zone. Draperies between those cabinets might also be beneficial. The back end of the room benefits the most from absorption. Consider venting pressure from the corners, especially at the floor because the acoustic ceiling will reduce pressure up high. With care you can reduce standing waves to a small fraction of what they would be in an enclosed space. Well worth the effort. For the record, most of the 'speaker problems' generally recited are not actually speaker problems, but rather room problems that may be excited more by some speakers than others. Thiel is capable of exciting problems due to their broad polar pattern and accurate response. |
jafant - always a pleasure to connect some dots. Summer is allowing use of an unheated artist's studio for my sound work. It's not much more than a shed, but the long wall behind the listening position is mostly open screens; so there is very little back-wall reflection. It sounds and measures well enough to be a useful space. |
The collective experience of many old-timers is that the room is far more important than is generally acknowledged and that effort spent there is worth some multiple of effort and expense for gear. Keep that in mind. The CS2 is old, designed in 1984 and released in 1985. There are qualitatively better caps and resistors that can upgrade your sound. Your tweeter is obsolete; we are working on a replacement. Your midrange has a drop-in replacement / upgrade available through Coherent Source Service or directly from Madisound, the importing distributor. There is a long history on this thread of the flow and intent of an ongoing upgrade project. I'll try to talk about the CS2 in particular soon - it hasn't yet been addressed.
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tomthiel - Thank you for the quick respond. Unfortunately all four walls are drywalled already, I would have to put them on the short wall. Actually, behind the speakers (on the short wall), there will be two cabinets from floor to ceiling 4 feet wide on both corners, a window in the middle and the equipment rack under the window. The upper part of the cabinets are fill wtih yinyl records (some absorption). So the long wall is more like 18'. If I place the speaks on the short wall what do you recomand the distant from the side wall, the seat and how much toe in or none? What kind of upgrades are you refering to? |
hifi28 - Your room proportions aren't bad, and if you can get some insulation above your drop ceiling, it could be fairly good. Biggest limitation is the 11.5' dimension. CS2s are wide-dispersion transducers, so your best bet is to put the speakers on the long wall. You also need them about 3' from the wall behind them, which puts your listening seat against the other long wall. That can be OK IF you can get a sonic hole behind your head, such as replacing drywall with acoustic tile to allow the back-wave to continue through the wall rather than reflect from it. Can your room accommodate that? The other option is short wall speaker placement which would require significant absorption / diffusion at the side-wall first reflection points. That could work. |
hifi28 - good speaker, more on that later. Tweeters are Dynaudio D28 soft domes. Great at the time, nothing special now. The domes can be sucked out through a paper towel core. Creases will remain, but sound is not much affected. Spikes can be any 1/4" dowel, metal or wood (with care). Or 3 pennies to provide a flat plane. Pointed spikes best on carpet. Grille boards are part of the system and must be used - fabric is part of the design response. Later version had rubber goo-tape for firmer connection to baffle. I'll talk about the CS2 later this weekend. In my opinion, you could build a first-rate system around your gear with upgraded CS2s.
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tomthiel - there is a pair of CS2 available locally and I was wondering if is it worthwhile to consider getting them. The owner sold all his equipment so I will have to bring in my amps and cd player just to demo. On the pictures, I can see both speaker's tweeter and mid range dust covers are totally pushed in (like you are looking it backward). They don't look good but does it effect the sound or is there a way to pop it back out? I saw some reviews mentioned that the spike feets are essential for the CS2 for good sound quality, but is missing for this pair. Is replacement still available? Also, some people describe the CS2's HF is hash, do you agree? I am wondering if my vintage gears will be a good match with the speaker; Mark Levinson ML-11 (50w into 8 ohms 100w into 4 ohms), ML-12, AudioQuest Indigo Blue speaker cable. My room in the basement is 19.5' x 11.5' with a 7' drop ceiling. Thanks.
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hifi28 - what seems to work best is to ask a specific question for someone who is knowledgeable to answer. Matters of repair and maintenance are best addressed to Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service. The CS2 is of historic interest to me, being the first of its series and the highest-count sales of any Thiel product. Its woofer was a Vifa/Seas unit, probably repairable by Rob. |
Tom I bought the Belsen 1800 F XLR. I’m using them from the ayre cx7 CD player on the analog side to the back of my proceed avp. My only other experience is with mit pc squared xlr from my avp to my krell fpb amp and rca from my tuner to the avp. But I really feel the blue jeans cable are a great value and nicely madeI know someone on this thread is a big believer of those cables.I was using a pioneer CD player to the internal dac of the proceed avp now I’m using the ayre dac the sound is amazing!! Ayre prefers you call them over email they are the type of company whose products I want to own.For the first time I feel like my system is “There” !! Or almost there!!! David |
Hello Prof, good to see you. The Original Series was indeed sequential, 01, 02, 03, 04 with advances marked in small letters. The 01(01a, 01b) was Thiel's first marketed product. There are some still out there and Rob says they have a loyal following. As a seminal product, the 01 illustrates Jim's fundamental values. They were small, inexpensive, very sensitive, flat with unbelievably effective bass. Deficiencies included refinement, delicacy, coherence - the audiophile virtues. We sold about 1000 pairs between 1975 and 1983. The breakout success of the CS3 in 1983 (actually a 4th generation 03) changed our dealer profile and overwhelmed our production capacity. The 01b was dropped for those reasons - it was still selling strongly. The 01 was a 10" x 1.5" two way with equalized bass and 3rd order slopes. Its veneered 0.85 cubic foot enclosure had a foam grille, and the woofer a foam surround, both common at the time and prone to ultraviolet deterioration. The on-axis response was flat (+/- 1.5db) from 30 to 18kHz in an enclosure only 13% larger than the 02. Its woofer was Eminence's first custom driver (model 10101). Within easy access 70 miles down the road, they supported our customization of their bomb-proof musical instrument workhorse which they built under their own name and for Peavey at a clip of thousands per day! The tweeter was by Long Engineering and sported a mylar dome mounted in a phenolic ring for minimal diffraction. The equalizer was the 01's claim to fame. Unlike Bose, which pushed small drivers way past their range of efficiency, Jim's EQ boosted 10dB (as the 03 - CS3.5) to stay below the power required for midrange peaks. The equalizer was optional, accounting for $75 of the $350 retail price. Being our inaugural start-up product, our quantities were too small for cost-effective purchase of anything except drivers which we picked up from the factories in our 1958 Edsel station wagon. We wound our coils on 'George', our shop-made spinner and etched and drilled the EQ printed circuit boards. Of course we made every aspect of our cabinets including our veneer faces - all in the original farmhouse. Our first CES was spring 1977 where we showed the 01 and 02 to an enthusiastic market including the German distributor of DCM Time Windows. Strong German reviews and market brought interest from high quality east-coast USA dealers. And the rest is history. We were naive and unexposed to any audiophile considerations or market. The 01 was designed as an all-purpose speaker that did well what Jim considered the necessary virtues. That Eminence 10101 woofer persisted through the 03, 03a, 03b sequence and is still available through Rob. I bet you'd like them if you can find a pair. Thanks for asking. |
JA - thanks for the tip. I won't be pursuing it. Bill Thalmann tuned up the old Thiel SCD-1 which had been previously upgraded. It's quite a piece of gear. The SACD head was not salvageable, but I have very little SACD hard media. I'm beginning my investigation into software storage and playback of high resolution media, while avoiding 'normal' computer circuitry. I auditioned iFi's Zen streamer - pretty impressive for the price. |