I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Thiel’s pins have a sharp point, knurled grip ring, and a pair of miniature o-rings (or some combination of those features.) However, generic dowel pins will work, available from McMaster-Carr or even a good hardware store. The diameter is 1/4" and the socket is 1" deep, so a pin should be at least 1.5" long. The three points define the base plane to eliminate rocking. A sonically important function is to drastically reduce recoil. The woofer acceleration against its air load creates enough rocking movement to smear the tweeter signal. You’ll hear cleaner highs with pins.
Beyond that there are issues around coupling or isolating from the floor and so forth and so on. A study in itself. But start with any pin and wade in.
Regarding serial numbers, it may not matter. The CS.5 had a relatively short life with about 1000 pairs made. I don’t think there are any variations. It, like the 1977 model 02 was a response to dealer interest in a $1K Thiel. I think it debuted at more like $1250. Thiel had demand for its core products and couldn't afford to keep making it. But it’s a real Thiel with a Jim Thiel tweeter and Jim Thiel woofer hardware. Like early Thiels, the woofer is a pulp/fiber cone which represents the largest cost savings. The woofer itself costs a little less, but the big savings is in the crossover. Pulp absorbs, distributes and damps cone resonances so that the crossover can be immensely simpler and therefore less expensive. Jim’s choice of aluminum diaphragms provides far wider bandwidth and transient integrity, but the various (well defined and predictable) resonances each require complementary circuits to eliminate them. Many high-end designers choose this soft-cone solution. Jim only nested there in the early days and revisited there for the CS.5. I find the product to be a fine, charming anomaly in Thiel’s line. I encourage anyone to snag one if it crosses your path.
jafant - a CS2.5 is presently a fantasy product. That's where Jim was going. With the proper designer-engineer further development of new products would have a solid foundation and deep heritage knowledge. Dreams keep the future interesting.
duramax 747 - Yes, indeed. The 7.2 wasn't on my radar, being a relatively new product with no service issues. But not that I'm getting a pair it becomes more a part of my working stable. The new wire (nearing finalization) and upgraded components, layout and fluid-flow wavelaunch technologies will all apply. My redevelopment work is quite universal in that the new solutions and techniques apply to all products across the board.
This week I am deriving a crossover schematic from the layout drawing. I am pleased to see no electrolytic caps on the drawing - I'll verify from my actual speakers.
Note that the 7.2 crossover is on the cabinet bottom (my favorite place) behind the passive radiator and quite distant from the woofer and upper drivers. So in stock form its EMF exposure is minimized. The 7.2 is eminently upgradable in due time.
Jim said he wanted to refine the 2.4 mechanical-crossover tweeter with the 3.7-type radial wave diaphragm, for use in the 7.3 and then also apply it to a 2.5. Tons of potential goodness there - no crossover components is cleaner than great crossover components.
Fascinating. Thank You for another Thiel Audio history lesson. To my ears, the CS 2.4 and 2,4SE turned out Awesome! A real Honey of a loudspeaker. We can only imagine about a CS 7.3 model.
The CS7 was created in the mid 90s transition between Vifa making the drivers we co-developed with them vs Thiel making everything in-house. That in-house driver manufacturing capability was in force before I left in 1995, but in its infancy. The first driver built in-house was the CS6 woofer, the motor of which was also used in the original CS7. The other CS7 drivers were all developed in conjunction with Vifa.
We had a great run with Vifa, but there is only so far an OEM manufacturer will go in making weird stuff. All of our drivers were out-of-the-box / different from 'normal'. Vifa offered all of our innovations to any of their customers, which made the R&D pay back for them. However, eventually we mutually decided that our needs diverged from their market. This transition occurred over 5+ years and everybody expected what happened. It happened at the CS7.
The CS7 drivers incorporated as much of Jim's ideas as possible, given R&D constraints and especially prototype cycling times. 4-6 weeks was a fast prototype turn-around time which limited iterations to a handful. As Jim and Walter learned how quickly and effectively they could prototype new driver ideas in-house, they set about iterating dozens of advancements. The coax was proven for the 2.e Rapid advancements turned into all new drivers for what became the CS7.2, along with the necessary crossover modifications. Rob says that the great majority of CS7 owners opted to implement 7.2 status with all new drivers and crossover networks.
I heard both models side-by side at Rob's shop several years ago. His room has an all-glass floor to ceiling wall on one side and effectively no wall on the other side with only about 12' between the back and front walls. Far from ideal. In that awkward space with good amplification and cabling, the CS7 was the safer bet. Its presentation was a little smoother and easier, less transiently crisp, and therefore less precise and detailed. The 7.2 had considerably sharper dynamic range and inner detail. Rob had either for sale and someone bought the 7.2s, which was fine with him.
The 7.2 better epitomizes Jim's vision. His last project was creating a next generation coax with a 'better' tweeter and 'better and smaller' midrange for use in the 7.3 and 2.4. That never happened.
I perused that 7.2 ad over on USADM. I have never read about a 7.1 speaker being upgraded to 7.2 status? Can you expound the details? Good to read that these loudspeakers found the next good home.
I shouldn't be interested since I don't presently have a good playback room- it's a leap of faith. I've heard the 7.2 once at Rob's Coherent Source Service ten years ago, in a very compromised room. In fantasy-imagination land what do you suppose the 7.2 would 'be' with a 3.7 coax refitted to it. Hmmm.
I’ve been using a pair this summer to run XO and wire experiments, along with mix and master evaluations. Mine are stock form, but have upgraded crossovers in their foreseeable future.
I’ve observed that any of the models with their crossovers remote from the woofer are simply cleaner and clearer. Many models mount the XO behind the woofer (for production ease.) The 1.5 mounts it behind the passive radiator for less electromagnetic interference. Five generations of the model hit the spot. I believe the CS1.5 spent its entire model tenure (1993 to 2002) on Stereophile’s Class A (limited bass) list.
This 5th generation of the model/format shines as a nicely matured loudspeaker - with room to grow using all its basic components.
Welcome! Good to see you here. Nice score on the CS.5 speakers. Stay tuned until one of the Panel members chimes in on your query. I look forward in reading more about Musical tastes and system.
Hi - I recently picked up a pair of CS.5s in fantastic condition, and while apparently they were the bargain basement offering of Thiel, they're my first pair of 'good' speakers, so I'm pretty happy with them. I have a few questions about them -
-Apparently they came with 'stabilizer pins,' but they must have been lost somewhere along the way. Are they necessary, do they make a difference, and if so, where would I find some replacements?
-The serial numbers appear to have been written on them in sharpie that has long since worn away, leaving just a few stray dots on the metal where they were written. While the numbers don't really have any significance at this point since the company's out of business, does anyone have any suggestions for trying to determine the numbers?
sdlr - I picked up a pair of near mint CS3.5s in Weschester County NY under similar circumstances. Big house, art dealer, posh entertainment - replacing the hi fi with Sonus in-wall and ceiling speakers fed from Spotify. He was most complimentary about the speakers and how much they had enjoyed them over the years - and the system was in good working condition. But the kids were grown and gone, etc. etc. I suspect there might be a resurgence of interest - eventually. Music can be profound, and MP3 over Sonus is really a big step down.
I agree with you. Even with the rebirth of increased interest in vinyl by some in the younger generations, there is still not a widespread embrace of hifi music reproduction. I'm even discouraged by old friends my age, who seem to have traded convenience for realistic sound reproduction. One of my best friends recently "upgraded" his house-wide access to music by buying really nice remote controls and mass quantities of ceiling-mounted speakers. At the same time, he didn't even bother to hook up his existing Vandersteen speakers because they took up too much floor space. That's why I'm pleased whenever a few younger folks like Darren and Duncan commit wholeheartedly to the high-end audio world.
Thank You for sharing your 1.5 story. We have a few fans and owners here on the Panel. Prima Luna has come a long way since market introduction. Still a good value as well. What other gear is in your system?
As long as we are discussing the 1.5s I'll tell my story. I bought a pair in 1996 for my for my Queens, NY apartment. Used them through 2016 in different homes with different ss amps, always sounded great. In 2016 I moved again and the listening room is much larger with a vaulted ceiling. Also I'm using 60 watt vintage Dynamo mono blocks. I'm out one day and my wife wanted a little more volume and she blows both tweeters. They can't be pushed, I'd done it myself in the past. So I retire them and buy a pair of Tekton Lore, a larger speaker with 95 dbl sensitivity so better for my space I thought. So now we are in 2022 and I had replaced the Dynaco with a Prima Luna HP Dialouge, 72 watts. I'm thinking about what to do with the 1.5s in my basement with the blown tweeters. I settle on having them rebuilt by our friend in Lexington. I reinstall them and decide to give them a listen. So glad I did! The Prima Luna pairs great with them! The Orima Luna modern tube sound isn't like vintage tube, more like ss but with a very liquid midrange still. That's where the 1.5s outshine the Lores. Midrange is perfect. To address the bass in my large space I just added a sub from Rythmik Audio. It integrates nicely from the sub our on the Prima Luna because it has a full signal going out, so I was told. Now I have a beautifulfull sound after all these years with these little 1.5s. Lores are now in boxes in the basement.
Welcome! Nice score on the CS 1.5 speakers. Reviewing the specs on TX-NR555, this is a decent Receiver. Onkyo tends to rate the power output on the conservative side. Should be fine at low to medium volume levels. Yes, the Mac gear will improve your aural experience by providing more current to the loudspeakers.
Keep me posted as you refurbish the MC2200 and C28. I look forward in reading more about your Musical taste and system.
I stumbled across a pair of CS1.5 speakers at a thrift store. Beautiful teak finish, no scratches. $200. I put them in my 10' x 12' studio/office building in the back yard. I have to say I'm blown away by them. Right now I'm driving them with an Onkyo TX-NR555. It is rated down to 6 ohm speakers and these are what 3 ohms? Will that damage the amp / speakers or just not sound as good?
My dad was an acoustical physicist and audiophile. I inherited his McIntosh kit, MC2200 amp, C28 preamp, 4 MC-1C speakers. The amp and preamp need to be refreshed. Probably the speakers too.
Listening to the Thiels reminded me of the flat response of the old Mac system. What a joy!
Would the MC2200 / C28 make them sound a lot better? I'm thinking it is time to get those properly refurbished. I remember the MC-1C speakers sounding great but the Thiels sound even better. Thoughts?
sdl4 - Thank you for your response. From my personal perspective as an ageing audiophile, I don't see many younger folks having any real interest in listening to reproduced music beyond MP3-type entertainment and/or media rooms.
In case anyone is interested, TMR has listed a pair of CS 1.5 speakers in birdseye maple for $799 + $135 for shipping; serial# 7899, 7900; condition listed as 8 out of 10.
Thank You for the follow up on Tom's theme. Good to read that Darren and Duncan are getting it done in 2022. P.S. Audio and TMR are very strong Operations.
Right On! "Practioner" is the Key word. No doubt, that there is a real art in being a Hobbiest. Add the D.I.Y. aspect to it all and Audiophiles are handsomely rewarded.
I say again, the 2000's was a magical decade. Several top-tier practioners were at play. I mean, at work to make OEM cd and SACD players so much better on playback. Competition is a strong motivator. I was not financially secure back then, so I missed out on much of this Gear. Thankfully, with the help of the demo/used marketplace, I am making up for lost time. Physical media is not going away anytime soon. Millions of shiny, silver, discs are plentiful. And I am a player all of the way. as my Collection grows every year.
Agreed, companies were created for designers to practice their passion. Bill Thalmann and Dan Wright are key examples. Amazing that these guys and a few others are/were out to build a better "mouse trap" And they did!
The next wave or a Revival is hopefully on the way in 2022.
I agree with you that the audio world has changed. Most consumers today seek out convenient access to music through playback systems that don't come very close to the traditional concept of high-end audio. Some audio startups still pop up these days, usually to push a specific product, but today's business climate is rough for companies that resemble the original version of Thiel Audio.
One model that may help some form of high-end audio stay alive could be described as "strategic infiltration." Some of the more passionate and dedicated audiophiles who become hooked on this obsession as teens may be able to find work and income from jobs that have some link to the music creation business or the music reproduction business. They don't necessarily have to start their own company to still enjoy a creative life in music and/or electronics.
I don't know if you've ever listened to "The HiFi Podcast with Darren and Duncan," but it's a great example of two young guys who are passionate audiophiles and get together frequently (usually weekly) to discuss audio gear and music for an hour or so. The podcast is currently on hiatus, but the typical podcast includes introducing themselves, describing their own audio activities, answering listener questions, discussing a selected topic in depth, and then finishing with an album recommendation. The podcasts can get a little long at times, but listeners can skim through to find topics that interest them.
Darren Myers is the senior analog engineer for PS Audio and has been the main designer of award-winning products such as the PSA Stellar Phono Preamp and the Stellar M1200 hybrid mono amp. He worked for B&W and Classe before moving to Colorado and joining PS Audio.
Darren's buddy Duncan Taylor is a musician, recording engineer, cable designer, audio writer, and DIYer. He currently works for The Music Room as a testing technician, which gives him access to thousands of pre-owned products that come to TMR for re-sale. (Other than owning some PS audio gear, I have no direct relationship with either Darren or Duncan.)
I think that a podcast from June (Episode 89: Duncan's Next Half-Day Speaker Project) may be of interest to some of the Thiel fans on this website. Starting at about the 1-hour mark in the podcast, there's a detailed discussion of Duncan's creation of a small desktop speaker that uses only simple first-order crossovers - and sounds great. Darren has challenged Duncan to create an even better sounding speaker using tweeters he has pulled out of some large Dunlavy speakers. There's no follow-up info on whether Duncan has actually built the new speakers yet, but the discussion is still fascinating.
I'm hoping that other young audiophiles, like Darren and Duncan, can find "day jobs" in the audio business that allow them to develop and apply their knowledge and creativity to help build new generations of audio gear that can draw in more high-end audio converts in the future.
jafant - the shortage of high-functioning practitioners is a real problem in our field. Over the years, and particularly in Jim's waning years, Thiel actively sought someone to carry Jim's work forward. The search involved professional assistance and engaged the myriad relationships Thiel had developed over the decades. Most candidates merely relied on conventional practice and 'wisdom'. Some had fantastical financial requirements; some proved to be pretenders - All lacked critical requirements. No fit was found.
In my own less intensive but similar search, I have engaged very knowledgeable consultants. About as close as I've come to understanding the situation is that the world has changed. (duh) In our youth, bright young people could imagine niches to apply their interests and passions toward building an enterprise to support the development of those undertakings into right livelihoods. Such was Thiel Audio. We created a company so that Jim could exercise his (albeit seminal) design talents and we could all apply our own abilities to making it succeed. We're approaching a half century ago, when there were more holes in a more amorphous market, more stones left unturned, more expendable income spread across a broader swath of society - in short, what I read as more confidence in creating one's life and future. Part of our own calculus for jumping into Thiel Audio was the vision that there must be plenty of other people who shared our desire to play back recorded music with better tools and equipment than was presently available. This equation requires enough confidence in the upside potential of the vision to justify the risks of buy-in. Among those risks were that our parents (Thiel and Gornik) re-mortgaged their homes for our start-up capital. Failure was never an option. I don't know whether that world still exists. It's a huge picture; I hope this cameo captures the gist of it.
Today I see plenty of bright young people. But if they're smart enough to try to make their impossible dream a reality, they seem to be opting for options in the 'new order' of the twenty-first century with astronomical upside potential. I don't see high-resolution audio playback anywhere in today's world-view. Thiel Audio didn't find an heir to what we built. As Bill Thalmann approaches retirement, he hasn't found an heir to what he's built. Will there ever be another Nelson (the one and only) Pass? I don't see it. And on and on. Vandersteen and Wilson have engaged their next generation in the pursuit. Bravo. But they had created a niche nearly guaranteeing continuing success. Home-grown doesn't match the new milieu very well. If we sit back and regret the changing tide, I'm afraid innovative niche audio may be drifting out to sea. If a hundred or a thousand of us encourage and sponsor young talent to carry on the work of breakthrough audio, perhaps we could keep it happening. Cheers.
Thank You another Thiel Audio history lesson. I am looking forward in reading more about your visit with Bill next month. Make a few notes about his room/system if possible. Very few of Us enjoy a dedicated space for our Stereo systems. Me included. Bill should have a pretty impressive Test-Bench. Our hobby needs more "modders" or "mods".
jafant - it is a great hobby. For me, audio has been at the core of my work-life. In addition to Thiel Audio I've consulted for other manufacturers, made and upgraded stringed instruments, produced concerts, and worked with musicians in various ways to upgrade their performances and recordings. I'm a sound guy. My musical recording and playback equipment have been valuable and enjoyable tools. Most of what I have and use I have had and used for many decades. I upgrade and replace carefully as advancements become available.
The Classé gear has been with me since around 1990 when we bought it for Thiel Audio. It was replaced by Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Mark Levinson and Krell with a parade of temporary gear for comparison. The Classé was bomb-proof and very 'smooth', but lacking in ultimate resolution / detail. I lived with that for a very long time. I had tried some unsuccessful layman's upgrades, but it was your introduction to Bill Thalmann that led me to go big time. I'm looking forward to what he does with these pieces.
Bill's soundroom is pretty rudimentary; it's a place within the large shop with 3 walls to define a physical space, with some aspects of an acoustical space. Although not a normal, enclosed, controllable playback room, on the plus side, the 20' ceiling and 50' (more or less) back exterior wall make a non-reverberant space which is problem-free. We can hear what's going on very well, but I don't know how it would perform as a space to enjoy playback.
Excellent! Yes, I do remember your purchasing those Classe' products. I can recall a hobbiest that offered Classe' upgrades years ago in the various Audio forums. Good to read that Bill offers critical upgrades as well. I know that you are excited to see his work in action. I can hardly await to read about the impressions and thoughts. Do Bill have a sound room at his Operation? Interested in the gear he uses to test all Electronics.
jafant - Yes. Remember the Classé DR6 and pair of DR9s? They've been incubating at Music Technology for a couple of years. He finished the preamp, including the phono stage in pretty high fashion. We used a lot of ClarityCaps including some CMR series-wound potted caps in critical applications. He has kept the DR6 to use with the DR9 and CS3.5 equalizer upgrade projects. So, I haven't heard it yet.
The DR9s are presently being worked on with a goal of pickup on my visit in October. But, the long roll-out of ClarityCap's Purity line might keep that from happening. We're doing something fairly radical with the DR9s, by committing to bridged-only to allow one channel as plus and the other as minus for fully balanced operation - which allows other optimizations and removal of front-end signal path circuitry. Serious hot-rodding.
The 3.5 EQ is coming to life. Jim Williams' Audio Upgrades optimized and upgraded considerably for a tight, clean, quiet result. Bill is going farther with his own magic. In October I'll get to compare cost/performance of various elements. Bill's backlog / critical need customers, etc. have stretched out these projects unimaginably. But, we're getting close to actual results. I wish/hope Bill takes on one of my Adcom GFA555 power amps. I'm enamored with them from JW's upgrade and wonder what Bill might bring to the table. He 'does' that amp, but his calendar is presently closed for new work - we'll see.
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