I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I know! It's one reason I've been so shy on putting one of my Thiels up for sale. Given the fact they seem to have dried up on the used market in terms of availability, it feels like it would be quite a final decision to get rid of my 3.7s. Unlike, say, Quads or something that you'll always be able to find easily again.
BTW, I contacted Rob Gillum and he has all the drivers for the Thiels, including the 2.7s. That's good for me as I'm pretty much convinced I won't be giving up these 2.7s. They sound glorious and look perfect in my room - I'd never find another pair on the ebony finish. So I may grab a spare coax/woofer/passive radiator for the 2.7s, and if I keep the 3.7s I might do the same for them.
I have used the Cardas golden rule using the near field formula, When I got to 8 foot wide ( as suggested in the Thiel owners manual ) I had the simular problem with the center stage , toe-in solved my problem , it took listening to classical music to fine tune it, the speakers are pointing about 16 inches out from each ear. Speaker placement and toe-in are personal and a great discussion . the Prof has his speakers 8 feet apart and sits less than 7 feet away and no toe-in, you have yours 80 inches and sit 100 inches away , toe-in ?
I've tried to get into Rush , a few songs maybe but I just can't. You have created an interest in Pierre Bensusan after listening to allmusic's snippets of him, never heard of him before so thanks.
Back to Classical Sunday , just finished Beethoven's 1st and 9th by Fritz Reiner & CSO.
arniespin- regarding Rogue Audio, the Stereo100 and M-180 are popular amps to use w/ the CS 3.7 model. Are you able to get an audition there in NYC/NJ ? Happy Listening!
Warren, your one of the lucky few that own a 2.4SE model and it sounds like judging from your measurements you must have a large room. Have you tried moving them out a little further apart ? Only the Indigo Girls song is familiar to me , buy coincidence I listened to thier second album earlier , it’s Friday Folk for me. I don’t have any of the albums by other artist you mentioned.
The room is about 14’ x 23’. You can see it in the Virtual Systems.
Oh I’ve played with the positioning of these, and my previous Thiels, extensively. I could always get decent soundstage and imaging regardless; but was never convinced by the vocals. i.e. the wider spacing always made it seem like the singer’s mouth was a foot wide, and accompanying guitars were 6 feet long.
I reassessed the positioning by using the Cardas placement equation as a starting point, and readjusted from there--4" farther apart, and 2" closer to the front wall. So yes, the dimensions break the golden triangle, but it seems to work, and impresses me with the most realistic aural output. Soundstage width is never a problem, as these speakers (unlike most others I’ve heard) push right to the side walls when appropriate.
As for the music:
Pierre Bensusan - Awali From the album Wu Wei, the French version of this Folk/New Age song features solo acoustic guitar and bass, with layered vocal tracks and percussive sounds. I use it to test image size, voice distinction, and Pierre’s tenor articulation (he has a slight speech impediment).
Olivia Newton-John - Warm and Tender This is a relatively unknown album of nursery rhymes and light AOR songs from the late 80’s. She uses her softer breath voice exclusively on it. It’s really close-miced, and sounds like she’s singing 2 feet from your face.
Rush - Red Barchetta From 1981’s classic rock album, Moving Pictures, the headphonic quality of the bridge pushes the limit of soundstage width. "Wind in my hair..."
Deadmau5 - Sofi Needs a Ladder This is an EDM (electronic dance music) track that can punish a system with the punchiness of the bass and sibilance in the vocals. There’s a lot going on here with its 3D density, and nontraditional instrument placement. Not for everyone.
Rammstein - Los The original version from Reise Reise is my preferred test track of a audio store’s tolerance for continuous rolling bass notes and German industrial metal. This tells me a lot about room interaction and whether there’s enough absorption and decay occurring. Also, there’s rim ringing from the snare drum hits that many speakers miss. Plus there’s harmonica!
The reason I went for the BAT over a more powerful Rogue model was twofold; 1.) One just wasn’t available at the time and 2.) I like swapping out stuff as quickly as possible and getting a decent enough trade-in toward the BAT expedited that. Easy peasey.
The biggest difference is the Goertz speaker cables. Slapping them in over the Transparent resulted in the 3.6’s being more defined in the bass. It’s kind of funny how much I carp about bass reproduction, or how we carp about it concerning loudspeakers in general. While I’m not a “bass” guy - I like “bright” - Thiel and Maggies get it so right that many other brands pale in comparison. Maggies lack it far more than Thiel, but both, to my ears, just sound natural. The ported Totem Hawks I had were truly good speakers but the bass was far more colored, kind of emphasized, whereas any Thiel I’ve owned just sounds right.
We all have to employ a certain degree of “forgive and live” with anything we buy. Listening space, aesthetics, significant others, finances, etc. I will say that Thiel is about 10% forgive and live whereas any other component I’ve had is around 50%. Thiels stick, amps and stuff have come and gone.
Would love to hear any other recommendations for tube power amps in the 100-200 wpc range that could be had for under 2k on the used market? Anything that might be a nice match for Thiels...
I believe the 3.7 came with cones and the outriggers were an add-on. The original owner of my 3.7s lost the outriggers, so I went with replacements from Soundocity, which are great.. beautifully built, solid as a rock, and allow easy leveling adjustments via a knob on the top.
oblgny... Yes, the Cronus Magnum was a great little integrated. With its beefy transformers and power supply it could definitely drive some pretty demanding speakers. The Stereo-100 has an even more massive power supply and with its cuad of kt120s, might be a nice match with the 3.7s.
What’s funny is that the 3.5s sounded great with my Sherwood’s at 80wpc. I did keep the EQ in the 40hz-20khz setting to tame the low basss..
Saffron_ Boots Warren, your one of the lucky few that own a 2.4SE model and it sounds like judging from your measurements you must have a large room. Have you tried moving them out a little further apart ? Only the Indigo Girls song is familiar to me , buy coincidence I listened to thier second album earlier , it's Friday Folk for me. I don't have any of the albums by other artist you mentioned.
Arniespin I thought that the 3.7s came with outriggers as standard equipment, like the 2.4SEs . Maybe other 3.7 owners can answer that one. They are something that I would like to have for my 2.7s but not at the $500 price tag that Thiel is asking.
I once had the Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated a while back and I dug it like a shovel. I believe I had it going with a pair of Totem Rainmakers and a small REL sub. I very well might have sold that off when I got my 3.5’s and figgered mo’ juice was better.
Totem makes some impressive stuff. I’ve had their Hawks as well - two pairs at different times. Stupid, yes - then again I’ve had 3, count em, three pairs of 3.5’s in the last few years. Totem was fine, but I found the Hawks bass somewhat artificial sounding, but comparing to Thiel isn’t really fair!
Hope everyone is enjoying great tunes on sweet sounding Thiels!
I myself am liking these 3.7s so much that I’m getting ready to list my lovely 3.5s :) only one set of Thiels at a time for me in my NYC apartment!
Also, came to the realization that my old reliable Sherwood’s weren’t quite up to the task of powering the 3.7s. I’m currently running them with a loaner Rogue Audio Medusa hybrid tube/class-D amp that feeds them about 350w into 4 ohms. Incredibly wide soundstage, spacious detailed top-end and slamming precise bass. Missing perhaps a little of the luscious mids that tubes do so nicely. I do really like how well the Rogue “sound” complements the Thiels. Might try something like their Stereo-100 sometime down the line.
Well, if you are soliciting opinions: I prefer to spend money on something that is actually likely to have an audible impact. But that kind of opinion tends to fall on deaf ears in the audiophile tweak world, and I ain't gonna tell someone else how to spend their money.
In the 40 or so years that I’ve been buying “hifi” I’ve never blown a speaker nor a fuse. In all this time I’ve never given a single thought about a fuse’s impact on the sonics of my gear - which is not to say that I doubt there might be some, but nothing about a fuse that wasn’t already deigned by the manufacturer to be sufficient for its product has ever caused me to think, “gee, am I missing something?”
I recently saw the new SR “blue” fuse offered here and I asked a question regarding their only offering a 6.3A 250v sku when my integrated calls for a replacement of 6A 250v. I’m curious about trying this “tweak” to better my system, but unless I’m mistaken isn’t it foolish/dangerous to replace a fuse with one of a higher amperage?
This might not be the correct thread to ask, but I trust us reasonable Thiel owners. I have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the tweaks out there, including some of those made by my favorite cable company, Synergistic Research. I can't keep from coming across so many praises for their fuses however, and I see that Scott Walker Audio is offering 3 blue fuses for the price of 2 during the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. Do any of the followers of this thread use aftermarket fuses? I do periodically remove all non-soldered connections including plugs, tubes, and fuses and reconnect, and I have even used Kontak Audio Cleaning Fluid. Are theses audiophile fuses better than either ensuring the contacts are free of oxidation or simply replacing with new commercial grade fuses? Thanks, Jon
Much Thanks! for the follow -up William. I have been active in these Audio forums since 2001. I have read over thousands of hours as you can imagine. I read about audiophiles using both Goertz and Purist Audio Designs (PAD) concurrently. There seems to be a connection there? I have yet to audition either brand. Good to read that something as simple as switching a cable or power cord brings about change (for the better) in your system. Keep posting listening impressions as you re-acclimate your senses as above. Happy Listening!
A pretty good while back. I still have two pairs of shorter Goertz Veracity that I used with my cheap-seats Musical Fidelity monoblocks on my 3.5's. I think I had an ARC linestage back then. Probably.
I don't remember what the Goertz replaced when I did that, but the difference between Transparent/Goertz now is VERY obvious, with the Goertz my preference. My 3.6's definitely require a higher listening level than the 3.5's did to shine. And not by much, either. The Goertz bring out the detail and "pressure" even at my standard level. THAT's what I was missing initially with the 3.6's.
The 3.5 and 3.6 are VERY different speakers. As I creep up the Thiel line - money and opportunity permitting - this lesson has taught me well. Sometimes simply maintaining one's previous cables doesn't mean your new speakers will show best. My appreciation/familiarity with/for Thiel just told me something was slightly amiss with my appreciation for the 3.6. The Goertz seem to have solved this for me.
Yes I did spot those white 3.5 speakers on eBay-William
As I cable guy first and foremost, I venture to say that experimenting w/ cabling is highly advised. One may come across that magical combo that cannot be denied. Some audiophiles swear by the whole short-vs-long cabling lengths- let your ears be your guide.
How long has it been since you last heard the Goertz Alpha in your system? Happy Listening!
Measured from the centre of the Thiel logo at the base of the 2.4SE speaker: 41" to side wall 55" from front wall 80" apart 100" to listening position
Recordings: Pierre Bensusan "Awali" Indigo Girls "Let It Be Me" Olivia Newton-John "Warm and Tender" Rush "Red Barchetta" Deadmau5 "Sophie Needs a Ladder" Rammstein "Los"
No, just the speaker cables. The 3.6's are a tough beast to get to sound "right". Of course my comparison is weighed against my appreciation for how good the 3.5's were. Perhaps upgrading my power source with the BAT300xse AND the cable swap is getting there.
Did you see those WHITE 3.5's on eBay? Jeeze Louise, them is pretty hard on the eyes - something I thought I'd never say about a Thiel.
Yep, it's really something isn't it? Pretty much every review remarks on that quality of the Thiels. And the fact they "disappear" through the entire spectrum, bass being just as holographic as the rest.
I reside in the 'boibs, out on the island in Lake Grove - a town with neither a lake nor a grove in site. What makes up for the lack of namesake is a good little store right around the corner from me, Audio Den.
It was opportunity that made me jump on the ones from Chicago. I felt they could be the last pair at a fair price - $1300 plus $300 palletized - that I would find "close" to me. Prior I had let a couple of New York ones elude me. Just hadda pull the trigger.
I was/remain so damn fond of the 3.5's that appreciating the 3.6's has taken some 'sperimenting. Today I think I attained bringing out their DNA by swapping a few cables. (Posted a few minutes ago) Mind you, I dug the 3.6's right offa the pallet and outta the box, but there was still SOMETHING not coming forth.
Methinks it's the Goertz cables mostly. Two feet shorter than the Transparent cables were.
Damn. Now I'm gonna start pining for a pair of 3.7's...
Feh - I've learned to forgive what my room doesn't and just get back to listening to music.
I dug through my magic bag of speaker cables today and found - to my glee - a 6 foot pair of Goertz Alpha Core Veracity cables that I bought I don't know how long ago. I've had this irking feeling that SOMETHING wasn't coming through with my 3.6's now...something. Out went the Transparent cables...
I also swapped out the rca ic's I was using with my Sony HAP server, returning to balanced XLR.
Big congrats on receiving the 3.7's safely! I received my 3.6's from Chicago on a pallet and I was literally watching the weather from start to finish. Cool that you could compare the differences side by side between the 3.5/3.7 too. Enjoy!
What part of NYC are you in? Your welcome to come by sometime and check out these 3.7s. I’d also be curious to hear your 3.6s with that nice BAT of yours.. I know what you mean by the NASA liftoff sequence getting a little tiring, would be nice to simplify things a bit in terms of the front end gear.
Wow oblgny You have one of the toughest roughest rooms to set up that can be imagined . At 12 feet distance I can see ( imagine hearing ) why you don't have any toe-in. My current room is the first I've ever had that is a rectangle measuring 13'2" wide and 17'2" long with 8 foot ceilings It would be a perfect size if my listen chair wasn't up against the foot of my king size bed , that I turned 90 degrees to gain 4" of listening space. At least I don't have to worry about rear wall reflections.
I agree with you about the air , I could never listen to headphones.
You brought up the Temptations " Ball of Confusion ", it's been a long time since I've heard that one, I've just bought a german copy of "Psychedelic Shack ". Something else I've learned with upgrading my system is the my old records while looking good are worn out, so I've been buying multiple copies from different countries and pressings of my favorites and play them in rotation.
Just wanted to report that my lovely 3.7s arrived unscathed and are currently hooked up and playing sweet music in my pad. I was pretty nervous about shipping these beasts from halfway across the country and especially about having the wooden pallet they came on, "dropped off" on the curb in front of my NYC apartment building! But everything went smoothly.
I'm still waiting for my outriggers to arrive from Soundocity, which will certainly help with stability and bass coupling on my uneven hardwood floors.
So first impressions... After playing some of my "standards" on the 3.5 for about an hour I hooked up the 3.7s and was absolutely floored by the difference!.. so much more information, detail and dynamic range. One of the largest differences I noticed was in terms of the soundstage- while the 3.5s create a very natural and believable stage that I've enjoyed so much, the 3.7s just go wider, taller and deeper in every direction... These guys just vanish in an almost spooky way.
It's love at firs listen for me. And I haven't even begun to tweek them as far as positioning goes. Also, apparently these particular speakers were never played extensively, and I believe might even need some time to completely break-in.
Some tracks I enjoy playing with new gear are: Patricia Barber, Postmodern Blues Jon Iverson, Alternesia (track 3 & 4) Springsteen, All I'm thinkin' About Paul Simon, Homeless Ramsey Lewis Trio, In the Crowd (Tennessee Waltz)
I sit approximately 12 feet away when listening in a very tough room acoustically - the left speaker is about 5 feet from a sidewall, the right about 13 feet from a sidewall. At its apex from left to right the ceiling is 17 feet high. Hard floor, hard walls, very little furniture - quite a bright space, which is fine with me. I like "bright" over bass any day of the week. I " forgive" a great deal from my setup because having tried other configurations over the years, where it's placed now is both aesthetically and sonically acceptable.
I've tried going along the longest wall but found I didn't like sitting to so close to the speakers which was about 6-8 feet doing that. That also had my setup directly in front of the baseboard heater, a large window, where the Christmas tree goes every year...the Thiels are just too damn heavy to monkey around even once or twice a year. The 3.5's were 70 pounds apiece, the 3.6's are 108 pounds apiece. It's a pain in the ass to swap out cables on them as the connects are on the bottom. My sixty year old bones are becoming less tolerant of the labor involved.
I hold an altogether unscientific and unwarranted theory that music needs "air" to sound right, or good, or whatever. I was never a headphone guy. Within my limited scope of speakers that make the "air" concept right, it's been Thiel and Magnepan that impress me or, at the very least, meet my unscientific/unwarranted theory's parameters. I don't know a mosfet from a misfit, but I know what sounds good to me. And what looks good in my living space. In a different house, with a dedicated room, things might be different. For now and the foreseeable future, nuh uh.
Besides, with the 17 foot high ceiling and the pretty open space I have, the "other room" theory has been proven true. (Walk into another room and see how things sound) I cook a lot on weekends so I'm off in the kitchen listening for hours on end. Things sound so good from there that I often walk back into the living room to better appreciate a tune or two. Only Thiel and Magnepan have managed to do that well for me. So well in fact that I've burned a few recipes over the years returning to the living room.
I also subscribe to the theory that short cable runs are better. I currently use 8 foot Transparent cables on the 3.6's which have a lot of slack. I previously had MF monoblocks with very short runs and I liked that. Just makes sense, methinks. I'm so bored today that I'm going to measure what I need and get a custom pair of cables made to eradicate the spaghetti strands behind my rack. Drives me batsh*t.
PS: The REL T7 sub I bought a while back is getting less and less use now that the BAT integrated is shaking hands with the 3.6's. At very low volume I continue to employ it just to "round" things out.
I found Everything But the Girl ( on allmusic.com ) , Amplified Heart ? Since you like EBTG then I think you would enjoy Tuck and Patti , I have their greats hits CD, their Guitar work and vocals are FANTASTIC, husband and wife team. I have a CD player only because some music is not available on vinyl, Cd's are less than 5% of my listening.
Between learning from nkonor and Absolute Sound and getting to a point where the system is good enough the hear the differences I've discovered room acoustics are just as important and any component, from the AC power to your equipment , from the cartridge ( or CD player ) to the speakers.
What Song, Album or Genre do you use to set up your speakers ?
Well I truly love all types of music so I'll go through quite a variety, from electronica, disco, rock, funk, jazz, classical, folk, world...you name it. If I'm auditioning a speaker I put it through all those genres.
But for setting up my speakers I have some go-to tracks I've been using since the 90's simply because I know them so well and they have to sound right or I'm not going to like the speaker. One album I use is Everything But The Girl Atomic Heart, the first track. It has acoustic guitar (that has to sound right - clear, golden, sparkly - stand up bass -has to sound woody, deep but not flubby - vocals, percussion. It's also not a perfect recording, with just a slight bit of sibilant emphasis and even a slight bit of distortion. It really helps me know how a speaker handles that kind of thing - is it going to tear my head off and make it electronic and unlistenable? Will it disguise the flaws? Best is when I can hear the flaws, but it's not aggressive and the essential beauty of the recording comes through. That's what the Thiels do. I know where everything should be in the soundstage as well.
BTW, although I go on about how great the Thiels are in this thread especially, I found out long ago that it's very unlikely I would stick with one speaker. As we know there's no perfect speaker and I can get restless. Even just hooking up my older Hales T1 monitors to my 2 channel system, as I did recently, reminded me of what those speakers do so magically, that even the Thiels don't quite do. The Hales have a Harbeth-like magic with vocals and a way of producing a rainbow of instrumental timbre that even the Thiels don't match IMO. If I had the space, I'd probably choose to own the old Hales T8 speakers over the Thiels, and almost bought a used pair before going with the Thiels. But the Hales are even more massive and I'm trying to downsize.
I'm sure I'll end up with other speakers at some point in my aim to downsize, though in this case I doubt I'll actually get rid of both Thiels. I'll have to keep one of them.
The back of my speakers are 21 inches from the front wall, with the center of the base being 31.5 inches from the side walls, toe-iin focuses my center stage , it might also be the side wall reflections that have a lot to do with it.
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