Wow! Terrific information Tom! Thanks so much.
As I've written, when I hear so many other speakers they still haven't seem to have caught up to what Jim achieved. And it's wonderful that Rob's service will be available to us Thiel owners. Now you have me pondering upgrading parts!
I understand if you don't have the time to answer any more questions, but just in case you do:
1. As far as setting up the speakers to preserve the benefits of the time/phase coherence, as I understand it the coaxial driver design essentially solved the issue of listener distance, orientation; the coaxial signal will remain time/phase coherent if you are six feet or 12 feet away, slightly lower or higher than that driver in seating position.
The issue left would be the coherence with the other drivers, e.g. the woofer. If one wants to preserve the time/phase coherence of all the drivers, it's the mix with the coax and woofer signal that suggests more care in listener orientation. Would that be right?
I'm about 6 1/2 feet from my Thiel 2.7s and they certainly "sound like Thiel" from this distance, and as far as I can tell from stereophile measurements, I should also be realising coherence with the woofer as well, with my ears just below the coax. Does this make sense?
2. Subwoofer integration. Some of us trying to integrate subwoofers worry that doing so takes apart some of the time/phase coherence of the system, insofar as a sub can't be placed right next to the main speakers and will therefore have a delay. Phase can be achieved with the Thiel speaker, but the sub would be around a cycle behind in terms of time arrival. I'm wondering about the likely effects of this on the time/phase coherence. It seems to me one would at least be still getting the coherence in the midrange on up. And if one were using, say, an 80 or 60Hz crossover point, the Thiel's woofer will still be playing part of the signal in time/phase. I just wonder how much a subwoofer could cover this up, and whether that recommends a lower than usual crossover point for sub integration?
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Hello folks. I've been scanning this thread as time permits but life is short. By way of introduction, I was a founding partner and for the first 20 years was the director of manufacturing of Thiel Audio. I was intimately involved in all aspects of product development and company-building. I hope to contribute some elements of perspective to this conversation, especially where speculation lacks sufficient knowledge.
I want to clarify Jim's attitude about passive parts quality. From the beginning in the mid 1970s, we became very aware of the subtle but significant improvements via better parts. In fact we were an early innovator re film caps and bypassing with small values of better caps. We introduced long-crystal, six nines wire for our air-core inductors to the industry. I'll spare the details, but Thiel understood that landscape before it was considered an issue. So, the speculation that Jim was strictly a measurement-guy is incorrect. The reason for less-than-best caps is that they can be cost-prohibitive for highest value per cost engineering.Thiel was always about finding the optimum point on the cost-performance slope so that real music lovers could afford our products.
Regarding the measurement tells all idea, we found our way via intense, systematic, long-term music-listening and then Jim engineered solutions that had to also pass scientific rigor. Once the understanding about any particular issue was in place, the measurements contained the information; and the chosen solution was always closer to the scientific optimum. We could see the results of our work in the measurement data, but the converse was not true: the improvements could not be made predictively via the data. By the way, Jim designed and built test equipment that was way beyond what was being used for the purpose.
On the issue of hot-rodding existing Thiel products. I wholeheartedly recommend it, knowing the value / cost parameters of Thiel products. Rob hopes to offer upgrade services. Madisound is also a resource. I upgraded my (original 1989 prototype) CS2.2s with boutique signal-path caps. Wow. Keep in mind that the original caps were all carefully chosen for type, geometry and manufacturer and often bypassed by even higher grade capa. So, don't indiscriminately change everything. The best bang for your buck is in tweeter feeds. Note that (real) Thiel inductors are air-core (contrary to someone's post) and the wire is as good as it gets. Resistors are likewise selected to be very good. But improvement can be made there also. Solder is silver/tin, which requires more care than usual. Hookup wire is six nines with teflon jacket and proper twist density.
Another thread here has been the electrical vs acoustic first-order crossover. By "acoustic" Thiel simply means the net resultant system performance. That final slope of that driver in that cabinet with that insulation, wire lengths and other factors including eddy-currents, reflections, propagation distortions and other factors . . . all end up on a slope of 6 db per octave to produce a phase and time coherent crossover that passes a square wave and/or impulse - intact right through the crossover frequency. That fact of coherence allows the ear-brain to consider that signal as real rather than as puzzle to be interpreted in the fore-brain. I mention that because small system changes are more easily heard in a first-order system than in any other system. So, when you change caps, resistors and the like, be careful not to inadvertently change system parameters. As an example, some types of resistors exhibit different induction and capacitance than other types. Some capacitors exhibit different induction . . . and so forth . . . everything matters.
Take care with your upgrades and I believe you'll be amazed at the improvements in rendition of subtle detail.
To close, be assured that Rob is doing his best to ensure the best care of all you supporters who kept this little company producing these extraordinary products for all these years.
Best regards, Tom Thiel
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With Thiel closed,does that make our speakers more desirable,valuable?Kinda like Trans Ams did when Pontiac died?
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Beetlemania,
I've always liked closer - takes out more of the room, tonality smoother, speakers soundstage/disappear more, etc.
More distance generally means tighter images, brighter more lively sound. I play with both, but tend to end up trying to get a good mix with a closer seating.
One constant is that I almost always have the Thiels points almost straight ahead. I don't like the more pinched, tonally brighter sound when they are toed in, and that goes for pretty much every speaker I buy.
Toeing out closer to straight ahead gives a bigger, more lush sound, where to my ears voices and instrument start to become more realistically life-sized.
BTW, one thing I've occasionally puzzled over is how the Thiel 3.7s seem to be just a tad more airy and resolving, despite the fact both speakers share the exact same coax/tweeter. I recently watched a Thiel video introductions of the 3.7 and the 2.7 and noticed that in the 3.7 Jim made the point to that the 3.7s front baffle was made of inches thick aluminum.
But on the 2.7 video, the front baffle was only described a "3 inches thick" but aluminum wasn't mentioned. So I think maybe the 2.7 uses maybe thick MDF or some other material to mount the drivers in, vs the aluminum in the 3.7s. Perhaps that accounts for the slight difference I seem to perceive.
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@prof oops Finally, a team of audio pros working with JLA f112's and Thiel CS3.7s chose 100 Hz in this example, http://www.soundoctor.com/studio/. Actually, these guys chose 80 Hz, not 100. It seems that 80 Hz is the default choice for crossover freq. Still, no harm trying other values. As in my prev. post, it's interesting that Thiel says 80 and below, while Sound Doctor says 80 and above. Too bad we can't ask Jim his reasons. |
Thanks for the reply, prof
6.5' seems close for Thiels. Seems like most listeners prefer at least 8', so I'm surprised to read about your set-up. Sounstage's measurements of the CS2,4, however, were taken at 2 m (~6.5') and the frequency response was outstanding at that distance (as opposed to Stereophile's inadequate measurement at a mere 50"). I hope your diffusor gives that result you want!
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beetlemania,
I'm always looking for the most immersive sound I can get, while not sacrificing image density.
For whatever reason, the 3.7s can be spread ridiculously wide and still have focused images.
The 2.7s, which are the next version of your 2.4s, are very good in that regard but don't take to be spread quite as wide.
Still, I've got my 2.7s at 8.4 inches apart, 6 1/2 feet from my listening position, and the image density (their hallmark) is superb. I just demoed them to a musician friend and the first thing he raved about was the imaging and the "thereness" of the images between the speakers.
My room was designed with an acoustician - it does both home theater and 2 channel listening duty. It's 13ft x 15ft deep, 9ft ceiling, with a large opening to one side of the room into the hallway. That opening helps "save my bacon" too I think. It's a well damped room.
My Left speaker is close to the side wall, near a fireplace with reflective tiles, so for years I have placed a thick velvet cover over those tiles when I'm listening. It mellows out the sound, reduces hash, increases image focus. But just recently I've tried leaving the cover off and I've really appreciated the added liveliness it brings to the sound. The only issue is that tonality does take a little hit.
So I'm going to order a curved diffusor and try that out, to see if I can keep some of the liveliness I'm enjoying, but restore a bit better tonality.
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@ish_mail
Wow, I couldn't have asked for a more helpful response! What great information. Thanks for sharing as it will come in very handy!
I'll let you know how things go.
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Attn CS2.4 owners: I’ve been thrilled with the performance of my "new" Thiels. One parameter lacking, however, was image density. My front wall is ~19’ wide altho’ confounded by a 4x4’ wall jutting in for the rear door exit in one corner. It is ~18’ on the sides. The ceiling is vaulted, 8’ on the front wall and ~12’ on the rear wall. There are two large openings on the rear wall, one just above my head; I sit within 2’ of the rear wall. I think the openings really "save my bacon" from unsatisfying sound with this room. I did have the speakers about 10’ away from my ears to the tweeters and played with speaker spacing 7-8’. ~7’ sounds best but image density was not satisfying. I just spent most of the past hour experimenting with distance to the listening position, now have the speakers ~9’ from my ears and spaced at 7’ (7’ to the front wall!). Zero toe in. Image density is notably improved. Anyhow, curious to read what other have for their placement. Thanks. EDIT: Looks like my spacing is similar to what Shane Buettner used in his review: http://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/APJ%20Files/APJ13_Proof.pdf |
@prof Congratulations on your new gear. I think you'll like the improvements. You called yourself a sub newb in an earlier post, but IMO, your previous comments suggest you understand the principles just fine. So dive in and have fun. My impression is that steeper is better for crossover slope, so probably 24 dB per octave is best on the CR-1. On the other hand, it might not matter all that much since your Thiel mains and JLA subs should both have good linear frequency response in the overlap region, even at 12 dB per octave. Easy enough to try both if you like. As before, I recommend the Sound Doctor's sub setup instructions here (or see hardcopy with your CD): http://www.soundoctor.com/testcd/Soundoctor_Test_CD_v2-7-2.pdf. As for crossover frequency, here's a range of opinions. Sound Doctor says, I suggest never going below 80, even if you think your speakers go down
to 40, or below. Even in a room where the existing "mains" have a pair of 12" drivers (each) you will get far better results if
you ... correctly cross them over at 80, (or higher) ...
The Thiel SI-1 instructions state, Unless the main speakers are very small, it is
usually preferable that this setting not be higher than 80.
There's no explanation for Thiel's recommendation of 80 or below; it might be specific to some feature of the SI-1 or Thiel SmartSubs (probably not specific to Thiel mains because the SI-1 is intended to work with any make of main speakers). Alternatively, it might have something to do with staying well below the frequency at which the period equals the sub's group delay (about 120 Hz for JLA f112s). Above this point, the minimum timing error doubles to 720 degrees. Finally, a team of audio pros working with JLA f112's and Thiel CS3.7s chose 100 Hz in this example, http://www.soundoctor.com/studio/. I decided to follow the Thiel recommendation (because I'm working with all Thiel components except for the subs). I selected 80 Hz as my reference but also stored preset configurations at 60 and 70 Hz for comparison. I can switch between these from my listening position with the SI-1 remote, but to my ears, they are indistinguishable. They all integrate seamlessly, and I couldn't reliably detect differences between these settings –– either in the highs or the frequencies surrounding the crossover setting. Still trying to test this. I suggest you also consider settings somewhat above 80, e.g., 90 or 100 Hz. In fact, I spoke with a support person at JLA who helped an audio dealer install JLA subs, a CR-1 set to 100 Hz, and a pair of Thiel 3.7s. The dealer said it was the best sounding system he ever heard in his space. I would think your 2.7s should not be all that different from the 3.7s. Maybe I'll try up to 100 Hz, too. Can't hurt. I found the Sound Doctor's Method B (p 4) for adjusting phase and level to be easy and effective. Rather than depend on my hearing, I used a sound-pressure-meter app, SPLnFFT (available for iOS and Android), to easily identify the settings for maximum cancellation. Good luck! |
@ish_mail
I now have the JL Audio CR-1 crossover. I'm going to try and crossover my 2 JL 110E subs with my Thiel 2.7s this weekend.
I'll have to go through your posts again, but do you have any direct advice for me as a starting point? Crossover frequency? Crossover slope? Etc?
Thanks!
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I have to say I was made so anxious reading the news about Thiel last night I actually had trouble sleeping until I found out whether Rob would still be servicing/providing drivers.
I’ve spent all too much time agonizing over which Thiels to keep, and I’ve spent a ton of money on subwoofers, crossovers, digital eqs etc to try to integrate them with the 2.7s. (I should be doing a good test of this sytem this weekend). Given all this, I want to feel secure that I’m building a system around speakers that will be with me a long time, and that can be fixed, in particular if a driver fails. The reports of the coax driver being fairly susceptible to this worried me more. I just didn’t want to live on the edge, having to treat the speakers with the fear of one bad move...and that’s it.
So having the spare drivers available really makes all the difference to my peace of mind.
It was the same with my Hales speakers that I use for my home theater.
Paul Hales wielded absolute magic with his design, the smoothest most organic sound I’d ever heard from metal drivers (and still right up there).
No speaker managed to make home theater listening so easy and smooth while crystal clear, that I could find. Yet by the time I wanted Hales for my system, they’d gone out of business (my timing is perfect!).
I managed to find one of the few remaining pair of T1 Transcendence monitors, and an incredibly rare (huge) top of their line Transcendence center channel made to match the transcendence line. It was just heaven to listen to. But...at any moment a driver could go and that would be it.
So I kept my eye out for another pair of T1s just in case and somehow ended up talking to Paul Hales himself, who sold me the last remaining pair that he’d been using in his office!
Since then I’ve tracked down two spares for the even more rare center channel (they made very few). One complete commercial one, and also the template version - raw MDF no finish - Hales used for to quality check voicing of the other transcendence center channels.
Yes..a bit obsessive about it ;-)
But, the result is having speakers I don’t ever intend to replace in my home theater, and being able to relax about the possibility of failures down the road.
I’ll certainly be stocking up on the Thiel drivers.
(BTW, the fella I'm most envious of is a guy I know who ended up with, what for Hales fans, is the mythical unicorn: The Hales Alexandria. It was a new go-for-broke design, the single pair they displayed at a CES, which disappeared because Hales went under shortly after that. Reports were that the sound was magical. I can't believe anyone managed to snag those!).
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Much Thanks! for the follow up- tmsrgd. Mr. Gillum is a class act. Happy Listening! |
Good to see all of you guys. Excellent news and developments on all fronts regarding Thiel Customer Service Kentucky. May we all continue to enjoy our beloved loudspeakers!
Happy Listening! |
It really is great news that Rob will apparently continue. Frankly, Kentucky service dept was the only reason I was in the least bothered about Thiel Audio continuing.
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Good news for Thiel owners!
Yesterday after the news about Thiel closing, I’d sent Rob Gillum an email inquiring about about replacement drivers for my 2.7s.
I received his reply today.
Rob will be taking over the THIEL Service department - as previous posts have suggested - and so servicing/parts will continue to be available for our legacy Thiel speakers.
Boy was that a relief!
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I believe they sold off their manufacturing equipment for the most part when they moved to TN. Maybe they could join up with Tyler for the cabinets? Was the 2.7/3.7 driver made in China? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I wonder how much it actually costs. My 3.7s are an early pair, SN around 40/41. I actually blew a midrange and even though I bought the speakers used they sent me a new one for free. I haven't read about anybody else blowing one, though, so I'm thinking it's pretty rare. |
It would be nice to think that someone could start making proper
Thiel speakers again with all of Jim's concepts intact. Not holding my
breath on that one.
If Rob Gillium has the machinery to fabricate the drivers it seems not far-fetched to at least start making CS2.4s again (I know they had problems with the more complex CS3.7 drivers and cabinets at the Lexington facility). Surely, at least a few of their old dealers would be willing to sell some, especially if the crossovers are updated with the latest parts. |
Hi all, If this report is correct, Thiel Audio is now dead. https://www.strata-gee.com/thiel-toastSorry if this has been posted here already, but I couldn’t see it at a quick glance. Hopefully the Kentucky service dept is poised to rise like a phoenix from the ashes of a very sad corpse indeed. In over 30 years in brand marketing, I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed such gross incompetence as exemplified by successively poorer management since the takeover. Effectively the true Thiel passed away with Jim, so there’s little more to mourn now, especially if Rob manages to carry on in a new service business, as is being suggested here. I have a CS3.5 eq unit that needs a service, but was unwilling to send while the black cloud hung over Thiel Audio. Rob will be getting this work once I hear he has managed to set up service operation. I also have a couple of midranges that could do with some TLC. It would be nice to think that someone could start making proper Thiel speakers again with all of Jim's concepts intact. Not holding my breath on that one. |
Thanks @tmsrdg! That is a timely phone call! And with fantastic news!
And way cool that he will coach you on the cap upgrades. Please let us know how that goes and how it improves the sonics.
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Everyone,
I spoke with Rob, an excellent individual and one of the nicest people on the planet, yesterday. He is in the process of buying the repair service. There is no need to worry. I also asked about the idea of recapping my 3.7s. He told me that would definitely be a plus. He even took the time to mark out what would need to be done on the circuit schematic, and sent that to me. Doesn't get any better than that!
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@marqmike
Great info, thanks!
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Hello all!
Well, the next upgrade to my system come in today, an Audio Research LS-7 tube line-stage. Bought it from the original owner, about 500 hours on the current tube set. Unit looks immaculate, but the sound...
Installed it and have it running to my integrated, which I'm using as an amp for now. Even with that, the LS-7 (once warmed up!) threw a soundstage that wasn't just wider, but deeper front to back as well. That's what stood out the most...directionality and presence in depth. As far as how it sounded...there was definitely a greater sense of control, where tonality was better defined, where individual notes and sounds had a clarity I didn't hear before. 3 hours in and I love it...and so do my 3.5's!!!
Now, I need a matching tube amp and phono stage!!! Ahhh, this isn't a hobby...it's an obsession!!!
Enjoy the music, everyone!
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@marqmike Thanks for that story! Very encouraging. And, yes, you should upgrade the capacitors!
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I don't know if this helps or not. I talked with Rob about a 2.4 I have that the lower driver did not have good sound coming from it. It was very noticeable. He lead me through the process. He showed me with detailed instructions how I could safely and carefully open up the speaker. I did that and removed the driver, sent it in to him. He checked it sent it back and it went together well. I was very careful to put it all together correctly. One by tightening the screws the same amount they were tightened before. Another by lining everything up exactly as it was before including where the driver was aligned in the speaker box, the correct angle the crossover leads were connected to the ears on the driver to keep down any stress on leads and wire. It worked great. I liked doing that better than worrying about damage to a whole speaker being shipped. Rob was really helpful. I asked him if I should need some drivers in 10-15 yrs should I worry. He said not to, he didn't have any but could rebuild the ones I have as new. Now I am thinking about replacing some caps to the SE model ones. |
Oh Yes, beetlemania, the CS 2.4 is excellent. The CS 2.4SE is outstanding! Happy Listening! |
I’m seriously freaked out because I’ve essentially staked my system on the Thiels (including having just spent tons of money on subwoofers, crossovers etc to use with the 2.7s), with the mindset I could get spare drivers. I note this at the end of that article: A skeletal team remains at the company wrapping up details before finally closing the doors. Sources tell us there is significant inventory of the Aurora speakers that remains and there is no word yet on how the company intends to dispose of them. I sure hope we can still get the legacy drivers from Rob ! Anyone have any idea what a closure like this usually means for remaining inventory? |
Yikes! That post about Thiel being "toast."
How does that comport with Jafant's recent contact with Rob suggesting parts will be available?
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I interpreted that as he does all the work in his shop - you have to ship the speaker to him. But I don’t know why you couldn’t instead remove the crossover yourself and send only that to him. Maybe it depends on how comfortable you are removing and re-installing the crossover. Also, I imagine he would want to be sure his mods work! In my case, I was thinking about buying speakers that needed to be shipped to me anyhow, so only 1 extra ride in the cargo truck.
If you’re serious, I suggest asking him directly including how many he’s done and ask his opinion of how the mods improve the SQ.
OTOH, if you comfortable removing and installing the crossover you're probably also comfortable upgrading the capacitors (and other parts) yourself. A good place to start might be the latest top-shelf Clarity Caps.
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Beetlemania,
Does
"
Yes this will be done at my lab and fully tested on the analyzer before shipping
"
mean that you have to ship the speakers to him for this to be installed? It is unclear how this answers your question:
"
Is this done in your shop or do I install the new boards myself?
"
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FWIW, eBay lists a "crossover upgrade service" for Thiels -- I have not explored this though. Yes, I saw this and exchanged a couple of e-mails with him. Me: I am considering buying Thiel CS2.4s and am curious about your crossover upgrade. What does this entail? Is it similar or better than the CS2.4SE crossover with Clarity Cap capacitors? Do you need the speaker or would I install the new crossover myself? If the former, can you upgrade the wiring at the same time? Also, there is a pair of 2.4s on ebay right now but they lack the cable nut. Do you have any ideas for replacement of those (I have Cardas cables with the spade connection)? Him: You get clarity cap with vishey bypass in the tweeter section. Electrolytic capacitors will be replaced with new ones as they go bad after 20-30 years, also where possible electrolytics will be replaced with film caps or bypassed to improve performance. Inductors will be upgraded as needed with larger awg wire type and resistors in the tweeter section direct path will be replaced with film resistors or mundorf type.
Upgrade cost is $210 each.
The terminal posts on the back can be replaced. Not sure if I can find just the nuts. Me: So, $420 for the pair. Is this done in your shop or do I install the new boards myself?
If the terminal posts are replaced, can the new terminals be the Cardas clamps? Can it be re-configured for bi-wiring? Him: Yes this will be done at my lab and fully tested on the analyzer before shipping.
Yes you can go bi-wire, but fancy terminal posts can get quite expensive and using 4 of them will increase the price. If you have a specific terminal post you would like to use, let me know, send me the link.
Once we decide on all the detail we can figure out a final price.
Here is my website to understand more of what I do. I normally design as a consultant for some brand speakers, but work has been slow and am doing this ebay thing for the time being.
Nedlab.com Seems promising to me. Who wants to go first? Might also be worth asking Rob Gillium if he offers upgrades for the crossovers. What we really need is a geek who took the time to experiment and listen with a bunch of parts combinations (it sounds like Jim Thiel did this when he selected the Clarity Caps). This is why, IMO, Wilson speakers perform as well as they do. The basic technology and drivers are, um, basic. But Dave Wilson, apparently, is a careful listener and finely tweaked his cabinets, crossovers and wiring accordingly. The final products is not without flaws but far better than otherwise. |
@jafant
There is an improvement between the CS 2.4 / CS 2.4SE, believe me, I
spent many hours of listening to ensure that nothing was remissed.
So, you directly compared the two models? Neither of the webzine reviewers were able to make that comparison. I heard the original CS2.4 probably 12 years so I really don't have a reliable reference for how the SE version is better. All I know is that the SE version is incredible! Gotta give credit to my source and amp, but the Thiels are reproducing their signal superbly well. |
Beetlemania,
Your remark "I'll venture to guess that a tricked-out CS2.4 would retail for $10-15K but compete sonically with other designs up to $40K. A tricked-out CS3.7 might retail in low $20Ks but be considered as among the best speakers available" got me to thinking. I'd certainly be interested in something like that for my 3.7s, not that I'm unhappy with them in their current incarnation! It certainly would be an opportunity for an enterprising individual to offer that kind of mod service. FWIW, eBay lists a "crossover upgrade service" for Thiels -- I have not explored this though.
Any savvy technicians out there with knowledge of the Thiel crossovers?
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Though I would have been interested in a longer conversation with Jim,
to draw him out on the subject and see how he may nuance things.
Well, I think it's telling that he called the Clarity Caps "boutique" capacitors. That sounds quite condescending to me. My supposition is that he was pretty firmly in the "objectivist camp" (measurements tell you everything you need to know) for most of his career and only reluctantly admitted, towards the end of his life,
that measurements don't tell you everything. There is no doubt that his designs measure superbly well (except as measured by Stereophile - JA's "quasi-anechoic" method limits the mic distance to a mere 50"). Soundstage's measurements of the CS2.4, for example, are among the best they have examined in terms of flat frequency response and low distortion. And I consider his drivers to be among the best ever made - near-pistonic behavior albeit handicapped by the slow roll-off of the first order filters. But that quote to Jeff Fritz, shortly before Thiel's passing, clearly indicates that he recognized that not all sonic improvements can be quantified by machines. |
beetlemania,
No that doesn't sound insincere. I think Jim was a pretty straight-shooter, so that suggests he believes he heard the difference. Though I would have been interested in a longer conversation with Jim, to draw him out on the subject and see how he may nuance things.
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Thanks! for sharing- prof and beetlemania
I tend to agree with Jim Thiel and Bill Conrad, respectively.
There is an improvement between the CS 2.4 / CS 2.4SE, believe me, I spent many hours of listening to ensure that nothing was remissed.
Regarding Conrad Johnson, if one is considering a model of pre or power amp, and there is a "SE" upgraded model available, go for the "SE".
Totally worth those sweet teflon caps and vishay resistors.
Happy Listening!
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@prof Do you think Jim Thiel was insincere when he told Jeff Fritz:
The improved resolution is not the kind of thing that shows up well in measurements;
the magnitude of the difference between the CS2.4 and the CS2.4SE is more easily heard
than discerned from graphs. The new capacitors allow more nuance, air, detail, and decay
to be reproduced by the coaxial drive unit. This was especially evident to us when
listening to recordings that contained realistic reverberation, as well as recordings
where the instruments were not processed heavily.
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I'm very glad that Jim Thiel took the path he did in terms of value for money. I always appreciated the fact that Thiel never went into that ridiculous-price territory we see in many other manufacturers. A top of the line Thiel competes very well with much more expensive speakers from other companies.
(As for Jim's "change of heart" about measurements, I'm not so quick to interpret it that way. The signature strikes me as perhaps a concession by Thiel that audiophiles really go for boutique parts upgrades, capacitors and the like, so this is a concession to that. Similar to how some manufacturers continued to include bi-amping posts on their speakers because they knew audiophiles wanted them, even if the manufacturer doesn't share the same belief).
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Alternate timeline fantasy . . . What if Kathy Gornik had hired a tweaking engineer ca. 2010. Keep the drivers and cabinets pretty much the same but tweak the crossovers, wiring, and binding posts to the nth degree. Here's @lrsky
in another thread Back
in the day, I used to ask Jim Thiel why he didn't
use better caps and air core inductors, resisters, etc, in his crossovers. He
would coyly say, 'Because they measure as they do with the components I'm
using.'
That was all well and good--but then the next day, I'd be talking to Bill
Conrad of cj, and he'd be waxing poetically about the caps they were having
made to their specs and how they spent hours deciding which cap goes where and
so on. I was confused and frustrated with Jim, one of my icons.
Many years later, I realized that the 'pragmatic' business side of Jim was
simply winning the battle for saving the world from bad audio, and keeping THIEL Audio in business. Every, we'll call it 'additional' penny(s) a manufacturer spends on internal
parts, is a penny that doesn't come back as profits. So, if a $.58 piece of
stuff works, why spend $4.35?
It wasn't until the twilight of Jim's life that he publically changed that
position by making the CS2.4SE. As you may know,
it offered upgraded parts in the crossovers. When interviewed, Jim said, 'Well, there are some things that can't be
measured, but exist in audio.' I'm paraphrasing, but that's the intent of the
comments.
I'll venture to guess that a tricked-out CS2.4 would retail for $10-15K but compete sonically with other designs up to $40K. A tricked-out CS3.7 might retail in low $20Ks but be considered as among the best speakers available. But back to reality . . . best wishes to Rob Gillium!
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Right On! beetlemania
those queries would be better served and answered by Mr. Gillum directly.
Like you, I am curious to learn more about his stock and overall speaker repair, rebuilding, refurbishing capabilities. I am relieved that he is attempting to run a separate entity from Thiel Nashville.
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In fact, he is working on becoming the owner/operator, solely, of Thiel
Customer Service where our legacy products will continue to receive the
care.
I figured that was the more realistic scenario, thanks for sharing jafant! Great news, indeed, Seems like a sketchy proposition for Mr. Gillium, though. Will he honor warranty service for products still under warranty? If yes, he can't possibly pay the bills, much less make a profit. Maybe there is enough post-warranty repair service to generate revenue? Also, what is the remaining stock of drivers? Can he fabricate more? That would be cool if he is in possession of the machinery needed for that! From there, he is only a cabinet maker away from . . . |
Alright Guys-
I reached out and touched Mr. Rob Gillum recently. He is alive and well, more importantly, remaining focused on Thiel customer service in KY.
He is celebrating 30 years w/ Thiel Audio. He is not planning to retire (God willing) any time soon. In fact, he is working on becoming the owner/operator, solely, of Thiel Customer Service where our legacy products will continue to receive the care. Open for business!
For those interested, send him an email or pay a phone call congratulating
Mr. Gillum on his service with Thiel Audio.
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Not a bad idea- stevecham
keep enjoying those CS 2.4 speakers.
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Good to see you- robinbarbour
hope you are well this new year.
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Is this a joke, question or a statement?
Nothing on the web about it. |
