Prof: may i suggest that since you going with the 2.7's, which I have and are crazy about, that you get a REL sub. i use the SHO S5 and it really takes the speakers to a new level.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,500 responses Add your response
Congratulations Prof Ever since I read your first post about your impressions of both the 2.7s and 3.7s I was impressed by your detailed insight, I felt like I was reading The Absolute Sound magazine. Which after reading I knew I wanted a Thiel design speaker , but also knew it would be years before a used 3.7 would enter my price range , then TAS came out with the 2.7 article which convinced me that the 2.7 was not settling for less other than 2 hz of bass and 60Lbs of weight. I know you switched back and forth many times before you made your finial decision ( which hurts my back thinking about it ) , so now you can just sit back and enjoy . And by selling your 3.7s make an upgrade Thiel owner happy or maybe even make a new convert to Thiel speakers . I just listened to a new ( used ) Japanese copy of Traffic's Mr. Fantasy and the 2.7s really show their stuff . I believe that some ( especially me ) 2.7 owners hope the Rob Gillum comes up with a crossover board upgrade , since he was involved in the design and building of the 2.7s Rob |
I believe I’ve finally made my decision after torturing myself between the Thiel 2.7s and the 3.7s for many months now. I’m going to sell my Thiel 3.7s! The 2.7s are good enough to keep blowing me away when I listen to them. I’ve had them up for a long time now, long enough to "wean" me off the 3.7s. If I put the 3.7s back in my system to check again I’ll just hear what they can do better, so why bother? I have the 2.7 position tweaked to where they are ridiculously vivid, alive and dynamic. It’s just freaky how they conjure palpably "there" musicians into my listening room, track after track. And with the introduction of my first truly high end turntable - a Transrotor Fat Bob, Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge and JE Audio phono stage, the system sounds more spacious than ever. The 3.7s will probably be the best all around speaker I’ve had, but I have to be realistic; while they work perfectly in terms of sonic performance for my room - still the most even sounding speaker I’ve heard - they are too big ergonomically and block too much of the entrance to the room. And I’m not going to shuffle them in and out for listening as I originally imagined I might. Even if I kept both the 3.7s and the 2.7s I don’t feel like hauling speakers around - at least not ones as big as the 3.7s. The 2.7s can stay right where they are and they look great, without impeding the entrance-way like the 3.7s. If, like most sane people, I could just have set up the 3.7s and left them there I’d have looked no further for another speaker. I'll sometimes miss the scale of the 3.7s for sure. But...the 2.7s are pretty great too! |
Hello all! Today, I received the latest addition to my system, an Audio Research PH-3 phono pre-amp. The reason I’m bringing this up is that, ever since I got my Thiel 3.5’s this past November, my system has evolved a lot, all in an effort to extract as much performance & pleasure as I can from my Thiels. Since November, I have acquired: - ARC LS-7 tubed line-stage - ARC D240 MkII solid-state amp - ARC PH-3 tubed phono pre-amp - Wilson Benesch Full Circle turntable (awaiting delivery) - MIT AVT-3 speaker cables (picking-up tomorrow) - Bluesound Vault 2 streamer/NAS/player (being installed next week) My interconnects remain AudioQuest Golden Gates & Cobras. And, still held onto my Denon 2900 SACD/DVD player. Point being...these Thiels have driven me to devious behaviors! I think I will be pretty happy for a while now, but I’m still looking for another D240 MkII so I can run them bridged as mono blocks. All to feed those Thiels all that much better... Here’s hoping I don’t end up needing an intervention! Enjoy the music everyone... Arvin |
I recently sold a Thiel SS1 sub to a friend. He tells me the sub is continuously blowing its own fuses. He's replaced the power cord, changed the source cable, changed out the surge protector, even tried it on another wall with a different outlet. Short of sending it out to Rob Gillum(so glad we now have that option!) any ideas? |
To all Thiel Owners. I have been enjoying my CS-5s for over 1 year now with Rob Gillum’s assistance. Last week I purchased a pair of CS-3.7s that needed drivers to be whole again. So I emailed Rob this morning Monday, February 26, 2018 10:04 AM and received this reply at 11:17 AM. I received my UPS tracking information via Email at 1:27 PM. I will receive my parts in 3 days. I quote Rob’s response here:
“Thank you for purchasing the CS3.7’s. I am sure you will find them sonically beautiful. The owners Info, and outrigger cap needed will be sent free of charge with the rest of your order. I will go ahead and place the order for two CS3.7 coaxes and one passive radiator. Please visit my website to make payment at www.coherentsourceservice.com. Once PayPal receives the funds they will send me an email, and I will expedite the shipment via UPS ground as requested. Thank you for the ownership of our products.”
Best regards,
Rob Gillum
Coherent Source Service 763 Newtown Pike Ste. 130 Lexington, KY 40511
859-554-9790 I have heard and read to the contrary and felt lead to share my and Our collective good fortune with Rob Gillum. |
I mentioned before that I bought a used pair of 1.6 with dust cap damage.They still sounded great so I bought them.I was able to get most of the dents out,to look presentable.Most of the used 1.6 I have seen have some sort of dust caps damage?I know the grills don’t protect the drivers at all.Im not going to mess with the dust caps any further so I don’t damage them.I guess my point is why are so many of these speakers used as floor jacks instead of being taken care of?These were not cheap speakers new!Im happy I was able to pick up a pair of these in any condition! |
I must say, thanks to tomthiel! This post has become very interesting even though I don't have the 2.4. I will be interested if this expands into other models. I do have 2 2 and 2.7. Both excellent speakers and very different from each other. Can't wait to see kits offered for all the legacy models, but this has intrigued me to perhaps start my own path. |
Thanks Beetle for doing all the legwork on those caps. That is almost exactly what I will do. I want to support Rob Gillum so I will try to see how I can do that with these caps. Probably be mid march or later though. Anyway it is nice to have this thread with that type of investigation and Mr Thiel's input. Thanks |
BUT, where does such a move leave the line / other products, niche reputation, etc?Yes, tough decisions and I have no business armchair quarterbacking Thiel's choices. Speaking of the CS5, I recall reading on AudioAsylum that Charles Hansen regarded the 5 as Thiel's best model with the 3.7 a "close second". I'm curious to hear a pair. I just took a look inside my CS2.4s. It was easier than I imagined (I was worried about getting the radiator back in) although a contortion is required to remove the radiator. From Rob Gillum: To access the crossover, you must remove the passive radiator screws and let the passive radiator drop into the cabinet. It can be rotated 90 degrees, and removed while servicing. To re-install the passive radiator, you can place your fingers at the surround, pressing outward to hold in place while re-installing the screws that hold bit in place.I discovered that the 33uF cap on the woofer is only 100V, not 630. This opens up the 33uF CSA 250V as a direct replacement, no bypass needed to get the correct capacitance, and for only $75 for a pair. I guess I could add a 0.01 ultra if I want to go crazy. Also, I think I have room for most of the options I'm considering on the coax board. If I wanted a 10uF Supreme to match a 18uf CSA, however, I might have to mount the board a bit lower as that cap is 4cm longer than the CSA. From the top edge of the 28uF SA as seen here: http://www.hifishock.org/gallery/speakers/thiel/cs2-4se-2-thiel/ there is about 18 cm to the cabinet wall (just past the bottom of the board as seen in the image). Most of my Clarity options should fit with a bit of stacking. Additional protrusion into the cabinet is moot given the fiberglass bat on the two boards. The extant 14uF SA abuts the 6mH coil but I imagine the coil's orientation prevents deleterious interference. In my case, I will need to place a cap even closer to the coil although probably a shorter cap that should provide a gap to the coil. Also, the boards easily unscrew from the cabinet and there is enough slack in the wiring to provide extra room to access the leads. Finally, it doesn't seem like a huge project to take everything outboard altho' I think I can fit everything internally. Looks straight-forward. Maybe I'll do this project sooner than April? |
Pruning a brand niche is a very delicate endeavor. Imagine the confusions that result from differing implementations of various products within a brand. I will share that in the development of the CS5 in the late 80s, I wanted to go farther out on the quality limb and market that product in the $20K market (actually introduced at $9700 / pair.) I believe its ultra implementation would have been more than competitive at $20K. BUT, where does such a move leave the line / other products, niche reputation, etc? Perhaps two quality ranges? etc. etc. etc. As a small company, we couldn't cope with the variables. Toyota marketed their upmarket offerings in the USA as Lexus: same idea: different dealers, different image, different cost/performance ratios. I have bought some nifty analysis software to guide me in this upgrade thing. I hope to find time to develop some solutions. The learning curve is cumulative, what is learned is applicable to other products. My first, stop is my PowerPoint 1.2s, upgraded via beetlemania's cap direction, coil replacement with legacy Thiel six-9s coils and wire, all in outboard XOs, and vetted with Metric Halo's SpectraFoo analysis software. |
brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brandsI agree but still wish that Thiel had a full-out assault on SOTA speaker. Not that I could ever hope to afford such a product but it probably would have informed new, cost-effective ways to coax (pun intended) even more performance from the 1s, 2s, and 3s. Maybe Jim Thiel had this in mind (cs7.3?) but left this Earth far too early. At Parts Connexion, retail pricing for a Clarity SA 15 uF is ~$20 and 33uF is ~$46. *Every* CS2.4 could have had SA caps for, maybe, an extra $200 retail (tbf, I don't know that the SAs were available when the 2.4 was developed). No doubt Jim Thiel had very good reasons for his design decisions and I shouldn't second guess those decisions. But, IMO, an extra $500-2000 retail in better passive parts for the 2s and 3s could have elevated their performance to the next tiers. I'm going to test that speculation! |
This thread is a great example of why brands like Thiel that stay on top of the cost/performance tradeoff are likely to have better products than the cost no object "luxury" brands like Wilson or magico at any price points where they compete. A lifetime of value judgements and performance oriented engineering vs primarily just putting the most expensive parts in a box made of something exotic is bound to result in much better performance for the money. |
Eventually I hope to have upgrade paths for various legacy Thiel products that Rob can supply.Haha, I can see it now. I'll get my pair dialed-in then you and Rob will come out with a kit for the 2.4s. There is no end to audiophile nervosa! the buyer gets what he gets with myriad value judgements / assumptions bundled in the mix. It is not for the faint of heart; the process will lead to critical listening / comparison and then value engineering assessment to assure that the gains are solid / uncompromised and the costs are no more than necessary Just picking the caps for the SE version probably took Jim Thiel and his team many days and weeks, never mind the initial design. Choose worthwhile candidate caps (this is what I'm doing), burn them in for a week or two, conduct careful listening tests/comparisons, probably measurements, too. Being a buyer, not a manufacturer, I don't have the time and money to try multiple combinations. Moreover, manufacturers are *highly* motivated to get the very best sound possible, albeit balanced by cost (except for Wilson and the like for which crazy prices are built into brand expectation). In my case, my SEs sound superb but I also know there probably are gains to be had with tricked-out XOs. I paid ~$3K for my used pair and I think they sound as good as anything new up to ~15K. What if there is a relatively inexpensive way to make them sound as good as anything new up to $30K? As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, I think Thiel made some of the best drivers in the business. IMO, the main thing that separated Thiel SQ from that of the very best was attention to the passive parts. Tom Thiel wrote that it wasn't that Jim Thiel was unaware or disbelieving of ultra caps and the like, just that he wanted to balance SQ against cost so that more people could afford his creations. And I am grateful because I am one who can afford Thiels. Not much if they were tweaked like this: http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=5464 I suspect a CS7.2 or CS3.7 with a cost-no-object XO would sound pretty much as good as anything I've heard. But something like that Dueland-capped XO would probably add $20K retail, more than a pair of CS7.2 or CS3.7! Tom Thiel has been very generous with his knowledge and sdecker shared his successful experience of re-capping his CS2.4s. This is a project I'm confident I can complete and with good results. I will certainly report back on this thread in hopes of helping other DIYers. |
This kind of wrangling of details normally occurs behind the design curtain and the buyer gets what he gets with myriad value judgements / assumptions bundled in the mix. It is not for the faint of heart; the process will lead to critical listening / comparison and then value engineering assessment to assure that the gains are solid / uncompromised and the costs are no more than necessary. Eventually I hope to have upgrade paths for various legacy Thiel products that Rob can supply. We're doing this first trial in view of this supportive group. Thank you, beetle, for jumping in. |
@tomthiel *Super* helpful. I owe you a beer or three. Next step is to pull a radiator and see how much room I have to work with. The solution with SA/CSA/Mundorf Supreme is the least expensive (of the options I'm considering) and with the smallest profile. I’d like to go with CSA/CMR on the coax, however, if space allows. Something of a crap shoot in terms of ending up with similar tolerances/values for replacement parts, vs sticking with the originals that were part of the original design.A bit of a puzzle to get the correct cap combos that match the original values but not too onerous. I suppose it’s not without risk but I’d be REALLY surprised if I end up with worse sound. Hedging against that possibility is one reason to stick with Clarity on the coax feeds. If it does end up making things worse, Rob Gillum has extras of the SAs that were the in the CS2.4SE. Having Tom Thiel guide me gives me a lot of confidence. |
I like where you are going. It might be possible to move the coil, if there is room in the cabinet. We could move the 0.15mH coil outboard past the end of the panel. That would require crimping and soldering lead extensions - not desirable, but possible. Damp all the caps with putty (BluTac, Mortite, etc.) especially if you stack the caps vertically, to damp microphonics. Note that the power capacity of the chosen caps matters-at least as much as original spec. And if the film-wrap direction is marked, match the original. |
Thank you *so* much for all this great info, Tom! I think any changes would be small enough to dismissOK, I'll keep this as an option depending on space. I don't know the relative merits of CMR vs Mundorf.Reading the anonymous writer at humblehomemadehifi I've concluded that person is a careful listener and has credible thoughts on cap performance. Reading the descriptions literally and between the lines, the CMR appears to be the near equal of the upper range of Mundorf, perhaps a tad less transparent but a scotch more neutral. I think I would be happy with either. From that website and others, it seems that going further up the Supreme line to Oil, Silver Gold, and SGO have rapidly diminishing returns with equally rapid $$$ increase! He/she is a fan of coupling SA with Supreme: Making a capacitor using about 90% Clarity Cap SA and about 10% Mundorf Supreme works very well, this tends to open up the top end just nicely without altering anything else. As of now, I'm leaning 20uF SA + 12 CSA + 1 Supreme on the woofer; 15 uF CSA + 12 CSA + 1 CMR and 12 CSA + 1 CSA + 1 CMR on the coax. The double bypass to replace the 28uF cap seems the most challenging to stay away from the coil. Maybe I can get the 27uF CSA from a European supplier - that would really help. If you can make some trap doors in those corners, you will clean up bass standing waves and flutter echo enormously.The other opening on the rear wall is a large (5'W x 10'H) walkway into the next room, conveniently in the corner! I have a bookshelf in the other corner on the rear wall. I also have cloth window shades (the front wall is almost all glass) and plants on the floor and hanging along the front wall. One-half of the floor is tile, so I also added a rug on most of that. This room was *really* bright when I moved in but I'm pretty happy with it now. Running a tone sweep fails to reveal any unacceptable room modes. |
I do not have a rule of thumb for how to account for changes in ourboard XO environment and I think any changes would be small enough to dismiss in the absence of research equipment and process. 0.01uF is very small for these voltage and current processes. It couldn't hurt, but . . . I like your cascading scheme. I don't know the relative merits of CMR vs Mundorf. Do not place caps on coils due to EMF field interaction. Keep the leads long enough for a heat sink while soldering. Use 4% silver x 96% tin solder or equivalent. I like mechanical / twisted connections under solder, flux the wire first. I don't think 40cm cabinet intrusion is enough to matter much. Do not change XO board orientation in the cabinet. Pay attention to potential wire buzzes when re-packing the cabinet. Your room geometry accumulates pressure at the rear wall-floor intersection, and behind your head. That wall opening is great. If you can make some trap doors in those corners, you will clean up bass standing waves and flutter echo enormously. |
7' from the wall is a great luxury. Do you also have a high ceiling? Ceiling bounce is a real issue.I'm kidding about getting the 7s. The 7.2s were close to the best I've heard but I'd rather tweak out these 2.4s (for now!). My room is vaulted with the tall end at the listening position. I had fabric on the ceiling for a few years to reduce reflections but took it down to wash the dust and decided it really wasn't helping to a worthwhile extent. I think I'm saved by two openings on my rear wall including a ~5'W x 4'H just above my head behind me. XO layout space is a real issue that will have to be engineered as we go.I think i can fit the double bypass options by stacking the caps on each other and on the resistors. I will cut the extant leads close to the caps to make sure all the leads can tie together. Is it a no-no to place caps on the coils? I think this 3-D arrangement would extend the XO profile about 4 cm further into the cabinet. the smaller values must be higher quality to get improvement.Thanks for the warning! I would suggest a 32 ± SA bipassed with 1uF ± teflon as a high likelihood of success.Can't get a 32uF in a single cap. Could do a 20uF SA + 12uF CSA + 1uF CMR or Mundorf. What do you think about adding an ultra 0.01 to the 33 SA? I would imagine outboard XOs to reduce size / layout constraints and take the XO farther from driver EMF and microphonics.In an earlier post you warned about taking the XO outboard because the values are dialed-in for the within cabinet environment. Do you have a rule-of-thumb for how to modify for outboard? |
7' from the wall is a great luxury. Do you also have a high ceiling? Ceiling bounce is a real issue. XO layout space is a real issue that will have to be engineered as we go. Thiel used good resistors, I don't remember the facts. You might trace the specs of your actual resistors. But I do know that we chose those carefully, considering costs. There is a theoretical and audible improvement from more linear resistors, but I don't know where the present solution fits in that landscape. The general answer to the mod / value / cost of caps is that the smaller values must be higher quality to get improvement. We are fudging to get the most gain for the least cost by using less expensive caps for the bulk of the work and tricking out the smaller values which we can more easily afford. The woofer cap deserves cost restraint, the impulse transient is far slower for lower frequencies. If the 33uF is a Solen film cap, that's probably OK. Upgrading to an SA seems plenty to me. Note that Jim bypassed 'lytics (etc) with a small value teflon for bigger sonic improvement than swapping the whole thing for a film type. Out of the blue (no real research yet), I would suggest a 32 ± SA bipassed with 1uF ± teflon as a high likelihood of success. FYI: Gary Dayton worked with Jim on these issues and may be willing to share some insight if you (all) want to rattle his cage. As an ultimate 7.2 upgrade, I would imagine outboard XOs to reduce size / layout constraints and take the XO farther from driver EMF and microphonics. I always heard added congestion when packing the XO into the cabinet. |
I like the CSA +, + with the 0.33 being a teflon or other ultra-grade cap if possible. Ultra bypasses are far less important on the woofer, put more value on the coax feeds Thanks for this, Tom! There appears to be much more room to replace the single 33uF woofer cap. Plenty of room to replace these with 15+18uF CSA or 33uF Mundorf Supreme EVO or, most inexpensively, 33 uF SA. Obviously, I can’t make any purchase without first looking at the boards myself and seeing how much room there is. |
beetle, the actual combined cap value is important for proper tonal balance and phase addition thru the XO region. I like the CSA +, + with the 0.33 being a teflon or other ultra-grade cap if possible. Ultra bypasses are far less important on the woofer, put more value on the coax feeds with less value on the traps (where the electrolytics are.) Mono is good for critical analysis, either from a mono source or summed in the preamp. oblong, Rob might have an upgrade path for those CS7s. Note: 5' from the back wall gives you about 5ms reflection delay where the ear-brain identifies it as a reflection and not smear of the initial signal. That's where the big Thiels come to life. Tom |