prof
Laughing...there are many ways to skin a cat. I know your CS 3.7 loudspeakers will find a good home.
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,726 responses Add your response
Hi Prof, yes i have followed your post with great interest because i also have both. my 3.7's are new from Rob and they have been breaking in. at first, not so good, but now they are really coming alive. your comment about them doing everything really easily seems to be coming true with mine: "Despite
auditioning the newest-thing speakers out there, the 3.7s have been sooooo hard
to replace because they just seem to effortlessly "do it all."
I too have issues with traffic but not too bad. Keep us posted |
hi Jafant, my entire system is PS and i could not be happier. they have great customer service, made in the USA, and all the higher end stuff is fantastic (no experience with Stellar). my system consists of their BHK preamp and amp, the DSD DAC, the DMP transport, and the P10 power regenerator. They offer (except for speakers which they are working on) a complete line up of audio gear. |
Thieliste, No, what’s important is that the amp is capable of delivering the power into the actual impedance load. Note how some amps will blow a fuse with just 1 channel running into such a load, never mind both. Or that sometimes an amp is not even tested into 2 Ohms. Guess why? Some so called Class A amps decrease the percentage of Class A bias output as the power increases into lower impedances. With most typical speakers (like the 3.7’s), as the impedance drops so does the sensitivity. 400 Watts into 2 Ohms might seem excessive, but consider that is comperable to 100 Watts into 8 Ohms. I’m not suggesting that you need a 600 Watt high current amp (advantages aside); your room and desired listening levels will determine that. Just that Thiel’s minimum recommendation calls for close to 400 Watts into close to 2 (!) Ohms. I recommend getting an amp that is not regularly on the verge of it’s limits. Given that an amp is capable delivering it’s power into a given impedance, it depends on the circumstances as to whether or not more power or more refinement is better. A more refined amp regularly driven into clipping would sound less desirable and potentially be more likely to damage a speaker than a smooth running less refined higher powered amp. While unto itself Class A can be desirable, it’s just one consideration amongst many in determining the the overall quality of an amp. I’ve heard Class AB amps that sounded preferable to some Class A amps regardless of power output. And visa versa.. |
ronkent, Wow, another person with both the 2.7s and 3.7s! Looks like we are in a similar scenario. Though I've decided to sell the 3.7s. I'm just trying to decide whether to sell them myself, or accept a nice trade in price from a local dealer for another pair of speakers (Devore). I wouldn't be giving up my 2.7s which I intend to keep. And the Devores are almost hilariously at odds with the Thiels in terms of design. But there's many ways to skin a cat as they say, and I enjoy having access to more than one speaker sound. |
The number of watts doesn't mean everything for Thiel speakers, what is much more important is the current capability of the amp therefore it is better to have 75 watt of pure class A into 4 Ohm than 600 in class AB. I'm sure a modest Sugden SPA-4 would do better compared to a big 600 watt Krell on the CS 3.7 Refinement is what you have to look for more than the amount of watt with Thiel speakers. I'm not saying big amps are bad because many of them can sing very well but there are some alternatives. |
hi guys, regarding amps, i have had great success with the PS Audio BHK stereo amp. would love the mono blocks but they are not in the budget. I am using it with both the 2.7's and 3.7's and it is really good with them. Will be selling one pair, most likely the 2.7's, but still comparing them at this juncture. Kent Tager |
https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-specifications https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements Note that the sensitivity is spec'd as: 90 dB / 2.83 V/m (not 1 Watt) the sensitivity is measured as: 90.7 dB 2.83 V/m (not 1 watt) Note that the minimum impedance is spec'd as: 2.8 Ohms the minimum impedance is measured as: 2.4 Ohms This means that the equivalent "efficiency" as when using 1 Watt will probably closer to <86 dB. Note that the only times the impedance rises above 4 Ohms (and then only in the deep bass region) it's met with rather challenging phase angles. Note that through much of the bass and lower midrange that the impedance is below 3 Ohms. Note that between 60 Hz through 20 KHz the impedance is always below 4 Ohms. Note that Thiel recommended between 100 and 600 Watts per channel. That recommendation is based upon the standard 8 Ohm amplifier rating, with the understanding that the amp would double down as needed. If one wanted to do this comfortably without amplifier strain, being able to double down to 2 Ohms would mean between 400 and 2400 Watts into 2 Ohms. Why do you think Jim Thiel used 600 Watt Krell's with the 3.7's? See Pages 16 &17 in the link below: http://www.krellonline.com/assets/support/FPB_ORIGINAL_SERIES_MANUAL_V982.pdf The more recent Thiel's are a bear to drive, limiting appropriate amplification to those well engineered products that are up to the task. The job of the amplifier is to power the speakers. Limit the search to those amplifiers that are capable of the work required, and then choose your preferred sonic signature. Anything less is compromising the work that went into developing these speakers, and the potential to fully deliver what they're capable of. Something else to consider; underpowering speakers, and especially those with 1st order cross-overs might lead to damage. |
Ok guys i probably found the best amps for Thiel speakers and not so expensive : https://www.sugdenaudio.com/sapphire-series |
thieliste... While I cannot offer an opinion on a MODWRIGHT KWI-200 SE with Thiel, I can offer one on the Modwright KWI-200 non-SE which I purchased used here from a fellow member a couple of months ago. 200 watts @ 8ohms, 400 watts @ 4ohms. 100% solid state BUT, it does have a home theatre by-pass which would permit employing a tube preamp if you so desire. Fortunately for me the unit arrived in pristine condition - indiscernible from new. Mine came with a very flimsy factory plastic remote, but after researching a little further I discovered that the factory still offers a rather hefty metal remote as a $200 option. I called them directly and purchased it immediately. It worked flawlessly right out of the box. During this his call I inquired about using the home theatre bypass to employ a tube preamp and within a minute or so Dan Wright was speaking with me. Impressed? Hell yes - and I related that I had purchased the unit used. It didn't matter. Mr. Wright treated me with the utmost courtesy, as though I was a lifelong customer. As as this is the first all solid state system I've had in quite a while my initial impressions find it a tad more forward than any hybrid setup I've used - various solid state amps with tube preamps. Sonically speaking I have to say it strikes me as being rather similar to a Pass X150.5 in terms of delivering accurate, uncolored, "musicality" - terms I've used to describe my impressions of Thiel as well. The nod would have to go to the Pass for perhaps being "too" clean - if THAT'S possible. The Modwright strikes me as being a touch less aggressive in the treble, but this is a hindsight opinion culled from memory, not a direct a/b comparison. Given the the reviews I researched before purchasing the Modwright and my post-purchase experience speaking with the brand owner, I have to relate that the model you're considering is most definitely a worthy contender. Also, it is considerably larger than it appears in the web photos - my virtual systems page shows it. It's about the same size as a Pass X150.5, but it weighs a little less. Power-wise it offers 50 more watts at 8ohms and 100 more watts at 4ohms than my Pass did which, methinks, is both ample enough to power the legendarily "power hungry" Thiels, if not more than sufficient. I hasten to add that what I look for, seek in my amplifier choices is resolution at moderate listening levels. In my humble experiences since joining this site the Pass and the Modwright deliver this exceedingly well - especially with speakers like Thiel that impressed me from the get-go with the exact same qualities. |
Thieliste, I have used many previous Pass amps and think very highly of them. (I don't know the INT-250). Nelson is a superb designer with values commensurate with driving a Thiel. The simple fact that it is doubling down to 2 ohms speaks clearly to the factors involved in driving a Thiel elegantly. |
Ayre and ARC would be on my short list. Also, Pass, Aesthetix, and Classe. Heed the power ratings per Tom Thiel. You very much want an amp with a decent 4 Ohm rating and 2 Ohm is not overkill. Maybe take a look at Wes Phillips’ review in Stereophile. I recall he tried two or three amps (but I could be thinking of his cs2.4 review). |
tomthiel, My problem with my 3.7s isn't sonic; it's aesthetic and ergonomic. Aesthetic in that they are visually just a bit overwhelming in the room (though I love their design). And ergonomic in that they must be placed in a way that impedes traffic flow in and out of the room. Sonically, in my room they are as perfect as I've heard in any loudspeaker anywhere, in terms of not showing any obvious room interaction issues. My room was an expensive re-design employing an acoustician in the design - bass treatment etc is built in to the room, and I can alter some of it's reflective characteristics easily for higher frequencies. The 3.7s sound completely linear and controlled. But....they just don't work in terms of size...such is life. The 2.7s I picked up are a very nice consolation prize, though. :-) |
@beetlemaniaYes ATC driver integration is perfect in phase. Active has huge advantages over passive - no lossy crossover and also far less intermodulation distortion as each transducer is driven by a separate amplifier. Top studios (where your music is produced) have almost all been active for the past 25 years. So far this hasn’t tricked down to the high fidelity market much. Dealers substantially benefit from the need for complex, costly and powerful amplifiers necessitated by loading a power amplifier with several transducers and a lossy crossover (usually a highly variable impedance curve). That said. Thiel is extremely good despite the limitations of a passive crossover. |
Prof, . . . you can keep your 3.7s and join the upgrade brigade for even more musical satisfaction.@prof Tom Thiel is learning much about the late model Thiel crossovers as well as how to improve parts quality for all the models he is now working on. You might hold onto those CS3.7s another year or so and try his upgrade when it becomes available. |
Prof, obviously you need a bigger room. Build to golden proportions at about 12'3 high x 20' x 32' with "vents" near the corners (windows or doors work) and you'll have a room like Thiel's listening / optimization room and you can keep your 3.7s and join the upgrade brigade for even more musical satisfaction. What's a second mortgage compared to such bliss? |
Tom, I used the Belden 5000 series Cable, 10-guage, from Blue Jeans cables: https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm Though I've been a high-end audio nut much of my life, I'm not big on spending money for high end boutique cables, which makes me a bit unusual I guess in forums like these. (Even though through my friends and contacts I have access to, and have listened to, some of the the most expensive cables in the world from Nordost and many others). I like Blue Jeans cable because they are a no b.s. company, you can find measurement specs for the cable, etc. I located my source equipment down the hall from my listening room so I had to run speaker cables under the floor to my speakers - about a 25 foot run or so. The Blue-Jeans cables have excellent specs for long runs and I went with 10-guage, which is probably over-kill. But what the heck. As I said: I've heard some speakers I own with with these cables, and with the highest end Nordost, and...well...even for a super picky listener like me I'm happy where I spent my money :-) As I've written about earlier in the thread I have to sell my 3.7s because they are just big enough to impede traffic flow in and out of my listening room. Despite auditioning the newest-thing speakers out there, the 3.7s have been sooooo hard to replace because they just seem to effortlessly "do it all." |
"I highly recommend very short runs of speaker cable. " FWIW: I've been using 25 foot long Belden speaker cable (10awg). Nothing fancy or special, but the 3.7s still sound better than just about anything I've heard anywhere near their price. (Including my friend's system that uses tens of thousands of dollars worth of Nordost etc). |
Hi guys. I'm not up to speed with which amps do and don't, but I do have lots of general Thiel experience. I have noted that current delivery capability is very important, especially in large rooms or loud volumes. If an amp doesn't double its 8 ohm current into 4 ohms, it will probably sound anemic, and its oomph into 2 ohms is relevant also. Ayre amps are good fits. Jim used big Krells. Of related importance is that cabling is more critical on Thiels than usual. One reason is that phase coherence is easily scrambled by cables. On most speakers that doesn't matter because they are already scrambling phase, but the degradation is significant on Thiels. Also, Thiels very low impedance load requires more current through the cable, exacerbating its anomalies. I highly recommend very short runs of speaker cable. Jim used Goertz flat cable in 3.7 development. |
thieliste, I doubt many 3.7 owners have driven the 3.7s with a succession of different amps. But FWIW, I've found the 3.7s pretty easy to drive. My 140W/side Conrad Johnson tube amps drive them great (great tone, grip, control) and even a 14W integrated tube amp sounded wonderful (if less taught in the bass) on the 3.7s. Like most speakers you'll probably realise the greatest dynamics the more good watts you throw at them. But that's the usual trade off between tubes and SS amps on most speakers of average efficiency/impedance. |
Hi jafant, it's been quite a while sorry for not responding lately. I was pretty busy with high end headphone rigs in the past months and therefore diden't use my CS 3.7s. Since i don't yet have the budget to complete my Thiel system i got into high end headphones last year and i'm really liking it. I need advice on choosing a very good int amp for my Thiels. If some of the 3.7 owners use an int amp to drive them please let me know what is your best choice. |
@prof My pleasure. I *am* doing this mostly for selfish reasons (I want to have killer speakers at a price I can afford). But am glad to help Tom Thiel and Rob Gillum develop an upgrade that will benefit many more. I'm pretty excited about it and think the "final" product will be a substantial improvement for our already excellent speakers. Tom continues to refine the parts list. One of the last pieces of the puzzle regards the paired 100 uF caps that are common in many models. Jim Thiel chose electrolytics for these because film caps in this value are quite bulky and *very* expensive. Also, to his ears these were less important sonically (they are in the shunt position so do not directly carry the signal). Others disagree, however, so we're going to compare a couple of film cap choices as replacements. One is a custom cap from Clarity so it will probably be at least another month before Tom can begin his evaluation. |
I have a 2003 Subaru that has a Macintosh Audio system in it, I believe that it was one year only offering , sounds great but I wonder if they ran into problems or maybe it was just a promotional deal for both of them . Subaru was not near as big as Toyota , so maybe the volume allowed for the Macintosh system ? To bad , maybe Thiel might have been able to survive as the original Thiel company . |
