Thiel Owners
Gee, I thought J. Gordon Holt and Stereophile in general have been quite flattering of Thiel's products. Here is the review of the previously mentioned CS 3's: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/684cs3/index.html Larry Archibald had used first the CS 3.5's and then the CS 5's as his reference for what seemed to be quite an extensive time, first as editor and then as owner, before selling Stereophile to a major magazine conglomerate. |
Welcome! boilers1 I have had the pleasure of listening to the Rega Elicit -R integrated on different speakers that sounded pretty good. Thiel speakers crave high-current. I am interested to learn the current output of your Rega? It could be that the volume has to increase to gain a certain output level? My first CS 2.4 listening experience was with a Creek integrated that did not have the power of your Rega. Remembering back, I did adjust the volume to musical taste. Hope this has been helpful. Happy Listening! |
I need to turn up the volume to get a decent ‘clarity’ from them. Could be many things including your listening preferences. Could be that is the sweet spot for your gear. I’m running an Ayre AX-5 which has the same signal/noise ratio regardless of volume setting. But most preamps have a "best" sounding volume. Regardless, I’m reluctant to ascribe the effect to the Thiels. BTW, stay tuned to this thread over the coming months. Tom Thiel is working on upgrades for legacy Thiel crossovers. The cs2.4 will be among the first tackled. The idea is to have DIY kits and/or upgrade service available through Coherent Source Service (Rob Gillum’s Theil service company). I expect these will bring sonic performance to a new level. |
Hi, guys. Running a lovely pair of 2.4s with a Rega Elicit R (105w/8ohms, 162/4ohms). I really like the accuracy and rather flat response of the 2.4s but finding I need to turn up the volume to get a decent ‘clarity’ from them. I prefer running at lower volumes as I live in a flat, but I find they sound quite muddled at lower volumes, but not always. For instance, midbass is just nonexistent below 11 o’clock volume level. my question being- would they sound any clearer with a more robust amplifier or is that only an issue at higher SPLs? Just not understanding the relationship between ‘high current’ amplification and listening volume. |
Danged tricky to respond to negative reviews if you're a manufacturer. Best just to cut your losses especially with someone like JGH. IIRC, Holt gave a tepid review to one of John Curl's designs (which was other wise widely praised) and it pretty much took the legs out from his company. That said, Atkinson gave a rave review of the CS 2 2, so that might have canceled the negative press by Holt. For myself, I use the magazines to help form a short list then rely my ears thereafter. The reviewers are wrong too often! And they rarely have much to say about value. There are many "mid-priced" (it's all relative in this hobby!) products that sound nearly as good, if not outright better, than the $$$ designs. Too many reviewers (Fremer and everyone at TAS) start with the price tag . . . |
As the designer, Jim received such invitations and did very occasionally indulge. Jim was private and work-oriented and did not enjoy schmoozing. He and Kathy attended Harry's 10th anniversary party with the reining who's who designers, and another home visit around the CS5. JGH was present at various home visits at Larry Archibald's home / office after Larry took the reins of Stereophile. I was farther in the background, generally working 100 hour weeks to make more speakers. |
JA, the reviewer was J. Gordon Holt the founder of Stereophile who had gotten somewhat cranky by that time. A company chooses its style. Our stance was one of appreciation for editorial coverage, especially since it was nearly 10 years before we ever placed an ad anywhere. Stereophile Magazine became the finest editorial support any company could ask for, if the dared dream so well. |
Proper imaging requires many aspects to come together, about which much has been written and we won't try to summarize. I will say that there are many ways to lose the information that results in a proper image. Cabinet effects including edge diffraction are a big deal as are lack of good transient response and even-handed timbral structure. But, in my opinion, phase coherence is the underappreciated core element. The ear-brain infers elements of space from time-arrival information along the harmonic structure. Jim's designs address that aspect extremely well. Years ago a respected reviewer took a pot shot at the Thiel (CS3 perhaps?) he was reviewing for its "ridiculous soundstage presentation". He complained that they made the classical recording seem like a birds' eye view, like he was in the rafters looking down. How silly! I sought out the recording engineer and, indeed, the mics were all hung overhead. We took that criticism as strong affirmation that we were accomplishing our goals of accurate image representation. We chose to not respond to the review, considering it bad journalistic manners and politics to call out a senior reviewer. To generalize, proper phase angle information is very spotty in recorded music. When it's right, the experience can definitely take the listener into the recording environment. Thanks for sharing, prof. |
Had a fascinating experience with the Thiel 2.7s last night. As I’ve mentioned before, they image with a specificity like few other speakers in my experience. Last night I was listening to the album in which the California Guitar Trio combined forces with the Montreal Guitar Trio for a live performance (album streamed from Tidal). So that is six acoustic (and sometimes electric) guitars lining the stage, close together. The Thiels imaging was so laser precise that every one of those 6 guitars in a line were easily discernible from the one beside it! They just showed up corporeally in space and I could close my eyes and point directly to each single guitar, even during complex passages. The images of the guitarists were not recorded up front, but are portrayed at a distance. So the instruments are not full sized, but smaller as in further away. This puts the guitars relatively closer to each other in terms of the demands of speaker imaging, and the Thiels literally carved out each guitar in space where I could "see" one end and the other begin only inches away from the other. For me this is one of the ways good imaging pays dividends - beyond the timbrel cues, he spacial specificity makes it easy to discern what any particular musician is playing in a mix. And the sensation of musicians playing in front of me is more pronounced. (I’m definitely a "tone and dynamics first" guy, but I also require the speakers to disappear and image well to be fully satisfied spending big bucks on high end audio). |
I am assembling a high resolution system with all Thiel speakers for developing acoustic guitar solutions as well as actual and consulting music production, in addition to developing potential crossover upgrades for classic Thiel speakers. By the way, all you A'goners, the upgrade project is proceeding, albeit a bit slowly due to the huge labyrinth of considerations. I have first-sample products on order and hope to have a report by the end of the month. I need an SS2. You may contact me at tomthiel@worldpath.net. |
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offnon57 I have a CJ made McCormack DNA-250 powering Thiel CS2.7's and I couldn't be happier , unless I had DNA-750 mono blocks . While I'm not as amplifier experienced as many of the Thiel speaker owners I will say the the 400 watts per channel at 4 ohms lets the speakers show how good they are . Supposedly the DNA-250s have all the upgrades the Steve offers for his manufactured models . I have ( so far ) only replaced the IEC connector with a Furutech one, the 20 amp fuse holder with a military grade 30 amp holder , the 6 fuse holders on the board with solid copper silver plated ones and all the fuses with ceramic fuses ( the main being a Furutech and the rest are Bussman ). You might want to send it SMC for upgrades or buy another and have mono blocks but the McCormack amplifier to me is fantastic . Rob |
IMHO, and this indeed a very personal view; the McCormack sound checks off oh so many boxes, but....they’re just too forward. For me(!) there are some more appealing options. With Thiel’s and McCormack’s there is so much good stuff, but it ends up right in your lap. The McCormacks are truly excellent, but perhaps a better match with more laid back speakers; a truly outstanding match with Vandersteen’s. YMMV!!! The similar but voiced slightly different c-j ss amps can work very well with Thiel’s depending on the models. |
Hello......I've recently been checking out Thiel on threads here,and reading reviews but have no experience listening.I'm wondering if anyone drives their Thiels with McCormack....I have a DNA 1 . I haven't seen mention of McCormack in my reading but it seems they would be a good match. Thanks for any info. |
prof, you need to listen to just your sub without the speakers playing. Use the online tone generator to see if the sub is producing sound at midrange frequencies. If it is, something is probably wrong with it or the setup. In my opinion it's illogical to fuss around with sub setup and dissatisfaction with the sound without measuring the room. If you've got a big hump somewhere that could be your problem. I recently got my old Behringer ultracurve out, hooked it up to the sub and measured the room. The room had some big bumps in the deep bass that definitely made it sound thick and slow in certain spots. I cut the two bump frequencies by 3 and 4 db and it sounds great now. I didn't come anywhere near equalizing it completely flat but I cut enough to get rid of the overloaded room sound. In the past I eq'd my system completely flat using huge cuts and it doesn't sound right. A little bit of moderate eq can be a definite improvement, though. onlinetonegenerator.com/ |
jon_5912, As I think I detailed somewhere in this thread, I didn't have the luck I hoped using the speaker level inputs on JL Audio Subwoofers for my Thiel 2.7s. It seemed to such a bit of life out of the dynamics, transients, and also darkened the overall tone too much. I tried the RCA inputs (running from my CJ pre-amp) and that sounded a bit better dynamically, but still darkened the tone too much. My CJ preamp probably isn't the best for driving the long runs (30 to 40 ft) cables I had to use. So I have the JL Audio active crossover now which I'll be setting up soon (hopefully). That in theory should work better, and it will be the first time I'm actually splitting the signal to the Thiels, probably between 60 - 80 Hz - instead of running them full range. Fingers crossed. |
tmsrdg, I was going to buy either a Rel or Svs.A local dealer that I trust recommended a GoldenEar SuperSub xxl.After reading Absolute Sound’s review of SuperSub,I took one home.Msrp was 2 k,dealer sold it to me for 1600 out the door,new in box.I really liked the Svs Ultra,but think SuperSub Is a little better!Ive had it for about a year,with nothing but good things to say about it.Using pre outs of preamp,instead of sub output made the sub come to life!Blends seamlessly with my 3.7’s.Absolute Sound said it was very musical,and it is!Im using one sub,right inside of my left speaker.A bass crawl test gave me that location.I think one sub is enough for me!Adding a subwoofer to my 3.7’s made everything more fun to listen it.I couldn’t imagine not using a sub now!Good luck with your sub search!Finding the right piece is half the fun! |
I've wondered why I've found that using speaker level inputs on a sub frequently sound better to me than using the low level or sub inputs. In some cases, it's definitely been that the line-level source I was using couldn't run the two sets of interconnects well. When I used two pairs of interconnects on a benchmark dac1 or dac2, the quality of bass was definitely degraded. On the other hand, this problem isn't there when I have a bryston bp25 preamp between the benchmark and the power amps/subs. I recently bought a bryston bp26 so now I have two bryston preamps and two benchmark dacs in two systems. I hope to be able to do some meaningful comparisons at some point. Little kids keep me too busy for much audio hobby stuff. |
Hello fellow Thiel owners & fans! Just wanted to update you on the repair of my 3.5's Electronic Bass EQ at Coherent Source Services. As you may remember, I began to get some intermittent "crackling" coming out of my system right around late January. I tracked it down to the Bass EQ. Contacted Rob at Coherent Source and he informed me about excess voltage accumulating in the output circuit of the unit, which causes the crackling. Sent it to him, he cleared the pots and repaired the output circuit to eliminate the excess voltage problem from ever happening again. Without it in my system, it was clear that my 3.5's just wouldn't go as low as I was used to. Putting it back into my system, the repaired unit was not only noticeably more quiet, but had more "impact" and "slam" than before! The bass is definitely fuller, but the speed and definition has improved markedly...couldn't be a better way to spend $165 to get this improvement in sound! Turnaround time was about 3 weeks, which I didn't mind since I travel for work during the week. I also looked at it as he was pretty busy, which is good because I'd love Rob to succeed. His communication with me, as with other Thiel owners, has been excellent! He even sent me a follow-up email with the following advice: "The EQ is especially attractive sonically when the switch is in the 20 Hz position. In order for there speakers to last a long time, be sure to switch to 40 Hz position on the EQ when listening loudly. Because the speakers are a first-order crossover, it is not advisable to play them loudly when in the 20 Hz position, as the midrange drivers are also wide bandwidth and this will shorten the life of the mids by sending the 20Hz signal through them while listening loudly. The CS3.5’s are truly great, and I hope you enjoy them for many years. Thank you for your business, and ownership of the CS3.5’s. Your EQ is shipping today via UPS ground. Tracking number is XXXXXXXXX. Happy listening!" Anyway, like I said, the improvement in sound with the repaired EQ unit is truly remarkable. If your EQ module has a serial number below 3770, consider having Rob service the unit as it does contain the output circuit where excess voltage builds up. You may be surprised at how much sound you've been missing! Hope you're enjoying the music... Arvin |
