Thiel Owners

Dan, I need my SmartSubs for my emerging guitar-making-research-recording-evaluation studio. One SS2 is being repaired. I'll report on the level of success.

350wpc is not too much. Too much really doesn't exist in my book, although there are small-amp aficionados who specifically want the wet sound of overdriven tubes. The amp you listed above @ 250-8 x 375-4 I judge to be inadequate (without ever hearing it.) If an amp doesn't double its output from 8 to 4, it is current limited and therefore producing distortion when driven hard. Thiel speakers drive hard, dropping below 3 ohms over extended ranges. That amp is likely to sound ragged / dry / conjested plus it could blow up drivers at high volume. Look for an amp that doubles from 8 to 4 and makes at least 1.5x its 4 ohm rating at 2.

ron,

One of the considerations I’ve had in deciding whether to sell my 3.7s or 2.7s is that I’ve figured the 2.7s would be a harder sell. They were pretty much under the radar (excepting of course the cover story on Absolute Sound - otherwise not a lot of reviews) and came out just before Thiel folded being Thiel. So I don’t think a lot of them were likely sold.

On the other hand the 3.7s had tons of reviews and years of coverage so everyone seems to know them. So they usually sell. (I haven’t even put my 3.7s up for sale, and I’ve had a number of email offers to buy them).

Plus, I got my 2.7s at such a good price it almost seems pointless to sell them.

That said, I did research 2.7 sales and it seems, though rare on the market, all the ones I could find did end up selling.

They are such a gem of a speaker. It’s too bad more people haven’t been exposed to them. I recently played some Bernard Herrmann recordings on vinyl for my musician brother who has listened to every system I’ve had since the 90’s. This was using the 2.7s and he was in shock at how incredible the sound was. I don’t think he’s ever been more effusive...and he’s heard my system with the 3.7s as well. Good recordings always help, though.

The 2.7s are keepers for me, which is why I just ordered spare drivers from Rob Gillum, which should be arriving soon.

Hi Ronkent,  I have bee reluctant to sell my cs-2.7's but have a small window to up grade to an additional pair of CS-3.7's  I am shocked you haven't gotten more attention. It tells me in a whole that most have not heard it correctly. I happened to pay more for my pair than you are asking, Yours look mint also, the pair I have can really pass as new. My plan was to use the 2.7 in a room where they will play double duty in 2 ch/ ht. my plan was going to have 2 SS2 subs  support them for both 2ch/ht  My gut says buy the 3.7's any way and figure out what to do with the 2.7's ,

Tom thank you for chiming in on the subs, Are you willing to part with one or both??  

I am now hunting down what amps to use and what pre AV processor, I want to get it right the first time! what is best sounding processor on 2ch   that has Dolby Atmos etc,, Mac, Casablanca, Anthem, Marantz, Classe etc... IDK  on amps what do you all think of ATI 6000 series  and also for rear cs1.7 and 4 thiel power point 1.2 is 350 wpc to much?       

Having a ball!!

Dan                                                    

TomThiel:  thanks so much.  the only reason i am selling them is because i just acquired a beautiful pair of maple 3.7's from Rob.  otherwise they would not be looking for a new home.  However i am certainly interested in updates and upgrades to the x.7 series.   Thank you for being here.  Your life story sounds like something out of a novel.  

Ron, I likewise have noticed that except for the likes of us here, Thiel seems rather passé. I expect that attitude to change as we gradually and by degrees create new possibilities for these classic models via upgrade options. A quiet Resurrection is what I envision. I am investing considerable time in the ReXO project.  A full 2.7 XO re-envision is a way down the road, but to the extent it might interest you, there are some upgrades that you could perform yourself or with a handy friend. I guess my point is that rather than taking a beating in a soft market, you might change the terms of engagement.

Dan, I have one SS1 and two SS2s (one working) in my studio. For my purposes of verity to the source, I've not heard anything close.

Jay, thanks for the Classe lead. I hope to identify and develop a solid electronics repair solution for EQs, SmartSubs, etc. that fall beyond Rob's grasp. Please keep that in mind for all of us.

Indeed, I came of age in the mid 60s and identified with the counter-culture and the folk resurgence, but from an unusual perspective. I avoided the drug thing and much of the dismissal of tradition. After high school I became a Brother in a teaching-social justice oriented religious order and continued studies in philosophy / social justice / human development until 1974 when I exited a PhD program to open my Conceptions Studio enterprise. My anti Vietnam War work and orientation underlay that time.
I formed a commune of sorts and bought land in the Cumberland Plateau of Kentucky to go "back to the land" and live outside the norms of mainstream society.  Thiel Audio was one of our community-cohesive work ideas that took root and "made it" to the exclusion of everything else. Have you ever ridden a wild horse?    

thanks.   fascinating that there has been so little interest in them when they are so collectable and such a great speaker.  

Thank You for the update - ronkent.hope your speakers find a good home soon.Happy Listening!

Good yo have you aboard - Dan.Happy Listening!

hi guys,   just wanted to let anyone interested in Thiel 2.7's know  that the set i have listed here has  had a price reduction.  Please check it out. 

Thanks for warm welcome, So cool there are others with similar taste and path. Since my last post a pair of MCS'1s and one of the SS.2  subs showed up! O ya,,,,the other speakers should be here within a week. 

Batmanfan thank you for your input, extremely helpful and a shot of confidence this is going to work!!   So I have been back to READING this time on AV pre amp processers and amps to drive this THIEL 5.2.4 Home Therter/2channel joy machine. So I'm all over the place and thought I was going all Mac and all in  mc161 AV audio processer, a pair of MC 601 monos for mains and a MC 8207 7 ch @ 200 wpc  Then I read your post and you were not thrilled with your  multi channel.  That lead me to my question to all, Has anyone run ATI Amps? they have a few models that go multi channel So I know I want more than 300 wpc for mains for 2ch and the center is extremely important, I was thinking the ATI 6003 a three channel for mains and center. Then go down a model to there 4000 series and have a 4008 made giving me three extra outs, thought it would be better on resale and have room to grow but more for resale.  The 4008 is rated at 250 @ 8 and 375 @4  it would run cs1.7 for rears and 4 thiel 1.2 power points for atmos. OR just keep it all the same wpc and get two 6000 series??  Whith Thiel what is going to give me better two channel MAC, Anthem, Marantz, or Theta Casablanca. What about cables if I was trying to save but don't want it them to hold anything back? Power conditioner? I know I'm NEEDY!! and having a ball! just hate making mistakes and selling or trading is no fun.  Thank you,  Dan  ps I cant spell very well so apologize up front,       

tomthiel

I perused the Classe' thread and wanted to pass this information forward to you. Contact Audio Advice in Raleigh NC- 919.881.2005 to inquire about possible repair on your amps. These guys, at one time, were a high-volume dealer/retailer for the Classe' brand and had an in-house certified service technician for all brands carried. My last visit, demo, was 2015.  Hope they can be of assistance to you owners.

Happy Listening!

Thank You - oblgny
Happy Listening!

BASS EQ FOR CS3.5

dinopau - where do you live?

I have a functional bass equalizer along with a complete pair of innards - crossovers, woofers, tweeters and midranges.  

The mids do not work.  So far as I could tell it worked fine but the mids didn’t.  

I live in NY 11755.  Contact me.  

tomthiel
Much Thanks! for the follow up. Did you consider your self a Hippie or Folkie back in those days? A very cool personal story indeed. I am glad that you are here and posting your history, impressions and thoughts. Isn't this a great hobby?
Happy Listening!

Guys-
if you have a spare Bass EQ for the 3.5 loudspeaker or know someone that does post here, contact dinopau. Urgent need on his end.
Thank You.

dinopau
Thank You for posting a follow up to your situation. I will keep an eye out for a spare Bass EQ that fits those 3.5 speakers. These do appear on eBay from time to time. In fact, I saw one earlier this year.
I hope one of the guys here can assist you with this dilema. I can hardly await for you to get the Accuphase up and running. This brand is on my short-list to demo.
Happy Listening!

Thielrules, thank you for your advise.
I wanted to create a vintage set so I started 4 or 5 years ago to build it. I begun it with a power amp Accuphase P360, perfect no issue, then I found the Tuner T108, works perfectly with the ant Magnum Dynalab. Then I bought the pre a C260 with many issues, power knob, mc input. It is still under repair, and I could not listen with the Thiel, purchased just two month ago or so. So I am using a pre Proton AP400, and the sound is very thin.
The C260 a a complete parametric eq that allows to increase the frequencies below 100 and or 40 hz. In addition it has a presence control that increases low frequencies when the volume is set below -50 dB. Do you think that I could compensate the lack of the Thiel CS3.5 bass eq with the low tone controls?

Thank you

I was in a similar situation when Rob was able to find some parts. An alternative that I found equally if not more effective is a dbx 1231 equalizer from eBay probably less than$100 as there is no market for these. Use the graphic profile from stereophile to approximate the factory settings or make your own profile making adjustments for your amp or room acoustics, of course within limits. Advantage is that there have  balanced as well as unbalanced input and output. Contact me if you have any questions.

Hello everybody, I received a email by Mr Gillum he cannot repair my cs3.5 bass equalizer. 
Despair and frustration, any idea or help? Without it the speakers simply do not work fine in my room, so does anybody know somebody able to fix it? Or where I could find a new used working one? 
Thank you 
Dino

Jay, my songs included Dylan, Leonard Cohen and many of the more insight and art driven folk fare of the time with a focus on my own music and that of our folk trio built around a female vocalist-arranger. We applied the seriousness of youth without any thought of making a living at it. A huge lesson for me was the radical difference between any recording and the live event and that commercially produced music could not be counted on as a reference. Record-making is a deep jungle.

Thank You for the update - beetlemaniayou guys have fun and take your time researching and testing the gear, materials.Happy Listening!

Thank You - tomthielWas Bob Dylan an influence on your singer-songwriter Coffeehouse years?Not  a bad idea to have a Musician on staff in a loudspeaker-making company. You guys certainly had all bases covered. Hope you guys are well out there.Happy Listening!

Since I was behind the scenes, it is normal for folks to be confused. As Beetle says, I was part of the mix from the beginning. Before co-founding Thiel Audio in the mid 70s with Jim and Kathy plus two more indispensible players, I had been a singer-songwriter-guitarist at the college coffeehouse level, had done some recording and had a producing art-craft studio with Walter Kling, another of the founding members. We made various artifacts of our own design - I made about 500 stringed instruments by the time Thiel Audio usurped my life. Fred Collopy, a college friend of mine joined us as business manager and Kathy stepped up for marketing and we decided to give speakers a try.  The Strata-gee.com interview from earlier this year scratches the surface pretty well.

Regarding Jim's records; they were detailed and extensive. They are missing in action through the change-of-ownership. I hope to recover them, or access to them. I agree, they are foundational for any real progress going forward.

In a holding pattern for now. Tom Thiel should get the custom Clarity caps by the end of the month. I do have my Multicaps now but don’t plan to use them until I build the new boards. In the meantime, I hope to identify any substantial cabinet resonances. And I’m enjoying the SEs with the Mills resistors. Probably the most cost-effective tweak I’ve done.

Ah, I see - beetlemania.hope you are well and having fun experimenting w/ those xo.Happy Listening!

what was your trade/occupation prior to joining Thiel Audio in th mid-90's ?

You've misunderstood. Tom Thiel *founded* Thiel Audio with brother Jim and Kathy Gornik. Tom left in the mid-90s.

As above,the XLO test disc is excellent. Also consider the Stereophile series-test CD1, CD2 and CD3 discs.Happy Listening!

tomthiel
If I may, what was your trade/occupation prior to joining Thiel Audio in th mid-90's ? Once joined with Jim, what was position within Thiel?
Did Jim leave behind any journal(s) of his designs, details, works...etc., regarding those amps / cabling used his lab back in those days? Would Mr. Rob Gillum know?I suspect that kind of information is quite valuable and relevant, even today.Happy Listening!

I talked to Gary a few times by phone way back and he was a terrific guy.   I do suggest looking into the BHK amps and preamp as they work great with my 2.7's and now 3.7's

FYI, Gary Dayton, Thiel marketing and Jim's lab assistant, is working for Bryston and should have deep knowledge of Thiel-Bryston synergies. I imagine he can be contacted through Bryston or gary.dayton@gmail.com

Searching is a sweet part of finding.

thielrules...

I have to say that my lack of enthusiasm with the 3.6 was due more to my high level of anticipating a significant improvement over the 3.5’s sonics which were and remain impressive. I have to admit that I pretty much thought, “wow, a BIGGER version of my 3.5’s...”.  Purty dumb...

Unfortunately, it is near impossible for any one of us to live audition Thiel because...   I, for one, was willing to invest in the upgrade path without having a chance to hear them first because Thiel speakers are truly outstanding stuff.  And I started with 2.0. 

I don’t know when I’ll be getting back in the game but my wheelhouse will always include Thiel, Maggies, Vandies...

Batman, please remember that I was not involved with THIEL since the mid 1990s, so my observations reflect general approaches rather than specific product knowledge. Jim's approach was very analytical and different from many audio engineers. Jim chose to make the speaker's job that of translating its input signal into the room. A corollary is that preceding links in the chain were also required to do their part. A signal chain must be clean, which is a tall order. Most designers of my experience hedge their bets toward forgiveness. Jim went for truth.  When it came to amps and cable, Jim would measure and listen and determine how well a link, cable in this case, was performing its job transparently. I judge that Jim chose that Goertz wire because he determined that it did a better job of being wire and that silver, being a better conductor did it better, both measurably and aurally . . . and so forth. This determination is different from whether he preferred the sound of silver to copper, flat or round but rather that one was a better wire having less distortions. The lab amp lived under the measuring tower with cable runs of about a meter and the listening room had several highly regarded amps with short cable runs.

want to have some fun and give your system a real workout.   try this one.   i have used it for years to test speakers for a number of variables.   https://www.amazon.com/One-Second-Yello/dp/B000AC5LD4/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1528039...

The XLO Test CD speaker set up track is self explanatory. The person who is speaking walks you through it. It’s ridiculously simple. 

geoffkait, you mentioned the XLO Test CD.  Did you do the setup and calibration yourself?  If so, do you have any tips?

Come to think of it, I haven't retested my system since I replaced the 2.4s with the 2.7s so it's been over 10 years.  The place where I bought my speakers is who originally came to my home to test and set up my system way back when, but they're no longer in business.  Should I try to find someone else to do it?  How hard would it be to do the testing and re-calibration myself, and what would I need?  I can borrow an SPL meter, standard one from Radio Shack I believe, from my brother-in-law (I think he still has it) but nothing else and no test CD.  What test CDs have people here used?  If someone can point me to a good site or discussion topic that shows what I need and how to set it up, I would greatly appreciate it.  I'm always willing to try something new, or at least take a look to see if it's beyond my capabilities and get someone else to do it!

jafant,

What stage are you at with your system?

You have the 2.4SE is that right?  How are they sounding and what amps/sources are you using?

Wrong test CD. 😩

I’ve had someone more professional than I come in with a test CD and measuring devices to calibrate my system and adjust settings along with the speaker placement but there are some CDs that just don’t sound as good to me where the speakers are. It may very well be a bias with what I prefer to hear, or a flaw in the testing conditions whereby the test CD doesn’t accurately reflect the distribution of frequencies and audio wavelengths found in the difference CDs I listen to. In other words, I’m sure the placement and settings are ideal to listen to the test CD!
In the end, what matters to me is how I prefer to hear the sounds from each CD from wherever I am sitting or standing at that moment, however inaccurate they may be! That certainly is hypocritical I admit because after all, I love the Thiels for their accurate representation of the material. Could be that I’m ignorant, lazy or just simply human! I am not perfect, despite what I tell my kids.

Thielrules, the drivers were damaged, so yes.

I should think the speaker set up track on XLO Test CD and similar is independent of speaker brand or type. That’s the beauty of it. Hunting for the perfect speaker locations for using trial and error or even using a diagram is practically guaranteed to obtain local maximums only. Usually, all things being equal, speakers should be placed closer together than one might predict a “sensible” distance. The more diffuse the sound using the out of phase track the larger and more correct the soundstage will be when the system is in phase. There is no guesswork with the speaker set up track. Trying to find the locations by ear is like trying to solve x simultaneous equations in x + N unknowns. 😩

There were a few posts regarding positioning, so I will post my experience.  I started with the Thiel speaker manual and positioned my 2.7s in the beginning about 8 feet apart, 2.5 feet away from the wall, and I sat about 9 feet away.  I noticed that the soundstage opened up a bit more when I moved them a little further apart to about 8.5' (perhaps because I was sitting 9' away) and toe'd them in slightly.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of reflective materials in my living room that I cannot remove, and I can clearly hear the impact it has on the sound (slightly stronger sound emanating from the left side due to reflections).  Sometimes I just like to walk around when I listen to music, imagining the sound stage in the front.  And as others have mentioned, the height at which the ears are make a difference to the sound.  Still, the Thiels do a great job of keeping it centered and broad even if there are subtle difference as I walk around, sitting down or standing up.  By the way, I noticed that the difference between my system and other, cheaper mainstream systems is when I turn up the volume and walk into an adjacent room, the sound is still crystal clear, as if the singer was performing there.  The quality of sound from lesser systems are more muffled and don't project as well.  Just an interesting observation.

Hi tomthiel,
You had mentioned that Jim used flat Goertz speaker cables for the 3.7 development.  If I'm not mistaken, in one of the PCS speaker reviews, he had the reviewer use their AG3 Divinity cables which changed the reviewer's perception of the sound.  These appear to be their top of the line--did Jim use these in particular for developing the 3.7s?  While I don't spend a lot on my speaker cables, I do understand that there is a material difference between silver, which is what the AG3s are made of, and copper.  Do you have any insight into why Jim chose silver?  I imagine he must have used copper and decided to go with silver due to some sort of shortcoming with that material, but that's complete conjecture on my part.

Hi dancastagna,
I've got an all Thiel HT setup with very similar speakers to yours (MCS1 center, 2.7s fronts, PCS surrounds, Powerplanes rears, and 4x Higherplanes up top) except for a Martin Logan Descent sub.  It had a much more modest beginning with an Anthem AVM20 powered by their MCA50s: 180watts all channel driven at 8ohms, up to 265watts at 4ohms.  The amps were, IMHO, just adequate to drive the previous 2.4s and then the 2.7s.  I have since added Bryston 28-SST2s to power them and it was a world of difference.  The soundstage improved significantly, which I would attribute to improved upper-range bass response.  It just filled out the image better.  The MCA50s have been relegated to center channel and surround duties, which I think are perfectly fine (except maybe the center but I wasn't about to spend thousands of dollars on a matching Bryston just to power a channel I use less than 30-40% of the time.  Maybe someday...).  Sonically, I like the Anthem and chances are if I upgrade, I may get the AVM60 even though it's no longer manufactured in Canada--they're crafted in Vietnam now. FWIW, everyone who comes to watch a movie at my house are simply amazed at the sound.
As for the sub, the Descent is perfectly capable of movie duties, but I find it better suited to music since the bass it produces is nice and fast.  I've read that there are a few other unique subs that would simply leave others in blockbuster rubble, such as Seaton SubMersive F2, PowerSoundAudio T18HT, and Funk Audio 18.3 (haven't auditioned any of these in person).  But alas, I don't have a budget for both a high end 2-channel system AND a dedicated high end home theater.  Ironically enough, ever since I got the Brystons and opened up the Thiel 2.7s, I've been listening a lot more to 2-channel sound.
Regarding your question on 2 subs vs. 1, the issue of standing waves is much more prevalent with having a single sub.  Depending on your room, it can be a big issue or a small one.  Having 2 subs can really reduce that problem and give you more consistent sounding bass.
Let us know what you end up doing with your system.

Oblngy, that is exactly how I feel and afraid to make the same "mistake". I'll first see if I can identify the problem with the frequency spectrum.
Unsound, did you notice an improvement after you rebuild the mid way drivers.

Well I finally put my order in for a set of spare drivers for my 2.7s.
I'm getting a coax, woofer and passive radiator.  

This was actually precipitated by thielrules's post that I saw last night just as I was going to bed, saying that Rob "has sold a lot of his inventory and all his 3.7 were reserved."

Given I didn't think Rob sells full speakers, I thought this must mean inventory of 3.7 drivers were all spoken for.  Oh no!  Did that mean I missed my one chance for spare coax drivers for my 2.7 (since they are the same)?????

Sleep did not come easily last night!

Anyway, checked with Rob and...whew!  Drivers available.  I almost missed them when Thiel was shut down, not taking that chance again.
(And Rob says they are pretty easy to swap out, the coax in particular).

Now I'll rest a bit easier when I crank Van Halen on my 2.7s.