Thanks for the advice and the nice welcome, I am interested in learning more about upgrades for capacitors etc, so will be looking into that route.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,726 responses Add your response
Harry, I have looked long and hard at which models to hot-rod. My choices center on Thiel-developed drivers and a long life horizon going forward. Although the 3.5 was a defining product in its time, it doesn't check enough boxes. The drivers are modifications of commercial units with little of Thiel's proprietary magnetics or cone materials and geometry. Those drivers are becoming obsolete. Same can be said for the equalizer. Redevelopment of a product is a substantial undertaking requiring custom component development and re-voicing via systematic measurement and listening, like when a new product is developed. I expect the results to be worthwhile. The first-tier models are the PowerPoint1.2, CS1.6, CS2 2, 2.4 and 3.6. Next round includes the 2.7, 3.7, CS6 and 7.2 - in order of expressed interest and personal time availability. First tier hopes to debut before year's end. I agree with your "masking" comment, which can be attributed to various factors. Among them is the presence of electrolytic capacitors in the signal path which are at or nearing their end of life expectancy. Since you love the speakers and if you or someone you know is capable, I believe you can make a great improvement yourself by removing the crossovers and replacing the electrolytic caps and resistors with like-values. (Your coils, wire and layout are excellent.) If that prospect interests you, I can point you to brands and sources which have emerged from our upgrade project research. You are welcome to send a PM to explore this avenue. |
This is really a question for tomthiel - Tom, I have a four speaker 3.5 setup (used to be five). An Accupahse AC-2 moving coil through a Marcof PPA2 headamp and an Oppo 105 through an updated Audio Research SP-6A for the front channels and Audionics BT-2 for the rears. Four Outlaw M200 monoblocks feed the Thiels. I love the accurate spectral balance of the 3.5's, which is why I am loath to give them up. But I also have a pair of 2.2's in another room driven by a Counterpoint SA-1000 through an Adcom 5300, and this combo is definitely more transparent. My question - are we ever going to get a "hot-rodded" audiophile version of the 3.5 cross-overs? I've felt all along that the crossovers perform a subtle "masking" of transparency, and today I am even more convinced. I'd gladly pay for an upgrade as a preference over having to trade up my speakers. |
Thosb, As Beetle mentioned, the 2.3 is not a front line candidate because more interested folks have 2.4s which have more evolved drivers. But 2.3s have potential and everything we are learning on other models applies to the 2.3. If you are so inclined, we could help you create a pair of well hot-rodded 2.3s that will definitely address the "tizziness / brightness" to a significant degree. Be aware that your room has a significant issue of the length being close to double the width. Your standing waves and timing reflections are likely the significant limitation to performance. Diffusion in the corners will help. If possible, consider orienting on an axis not parallel with any wall to spread out early reflections. Welcome. |
hi thosb and welcome. forgive the shameless sales pitch but you might want to consider updating your speakers as they have come along way since the 2.3's and earlier Thiels could be a bit tizzy. i have owned four generations of the 2 series since the mid 80's, but am now selling my wonderful pair of 2.7's which are awesome. why am i selling them? Because i just acquired a pair of 3.7's. otherwise they would be with me for years. if that is out of your reach dollar wise, you might want to consider the 2.4's as they are a nice step up from the 2.3's. welcome to audioland where everyday is made better by playing music we love. |
I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should my next upgrade be? Upgrade the crossovers! Seriously, this will be your best bang-for-the-buck move and I imagine you will be very happy with the result. Tom Thiel has an idea regarding “tizzyness” and Thiel’s reputation, among some, for being bright despite the ruler flat measurements. Unfortunately for you, Tom is not currently planning an upgrade kit for CS2.3, partly because of lack of demand for that model (as measured by responses in this thread). But maybe your need will spur him? If you can’t wait for a kit that may or may not ever come, you can start your own upgrade. I have replaced the OEM resistors in my CS2.4 SEs to notable improvement with Mills MRA-12s. Highly recommended. I will build entirely new boards later this summer/early fall, replacing all parts. My SEs are something of a test mule for Tom’s kit development. Tom may chime in with some ideas for you but feel free to PM
me if you want more details about capacitor choices. The CS2.3 boards are
roughly similar to those in my 2.4s, a bit simpler, even. The main unknown, for
me, is how much room you have to replace the 100uF electrolytics with film
caps. You can probably otherwise directly replace the extant caps and resistors
with higher quality parts. The result should be amelioration, if not complete removal, of the "tizzyness" and notably enhanced clarity and transparency. Jim Thiel engineered some superb drivers - these merit higher quality passive parts! |
jafant, thanks for pointing me to this thread! Currently have Thiel CS 2.3s driven by Krell KAV-300il with Audioquest CV-8 speaker cables. Front end is Oppo BDP-103 used as transport, PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (and getting the Bridge and converting cds to NAS next, will run Roon and Tidal). PS Audio UPC-200 for power, AC cord for Krell is an Audioquest NRG 3 with 20 amp plug, converted to IES with Black Voodoo converter. Silnote Morpheus XLR cables. Room is 11.5' x 22' x 8.5', no treatments, pics coming on virtual systems soon. Loving this system so far, have greatly enjoyed each improvement. However, I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should my next upgrade be? I am thinking that a significant improvement is going to cost $2000-$3000, in the meantime I was going to try some DIY room treatments. In setting up my HT I convinced myself the room is the most important part of the system, or at least the most bang-for-the-buck improvement wise once you have a decent system in place. Background - dove into two channel hifi at the beginning of 2018, goal was to put together a decent sounding system in a dedicated listening room using used, discounted, even vintage equipment, all for less than $5000. I think with the PS Audio Bridge I will come in just over that mark. Geoff Poor at Glenn Poor's Audio and Video in Champaign IL demonstrated the magic of time and phase aligned speakers and after some research I Ianded on the CS 2.3s. I had been using my brother's old Maggies and had already purchased a Krell integrated amp for these along with Audioquest cables, also had an Oppo universal player from an old HT set-up, so that's where I started. |
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ronkent the RUSH catalog has been a victim of several re-mastering batches over the years. The first kicked off in 1997. These are not well-done according to the experts (CD). Next wave was in early 2000's. Hit-and miss titles.Next wave in 2009-2011. Again, hit-and-miss. There are "gold" discs via MFSL. There are 35th anniversary / 40th anniversary editions. Sector re-masters boxed sets. I think that I have them all accounted? To my ears, seek out the original Mercury USA/German "atomic" CDs.Very affordable, easy to spot on eBay or Amazon. These will also refer to PDO or all silver faced (including the hub) discs- I own these ones. Hope this has been helpful. Happy Listening! |
jon, It was around $975 for the 3 drivers. I seem to remember when I inquired a while back that a single set of 3.7 drivers was a bit more expensive. ron, I wish I could be of more help. The remasters I've been listening to of Rush are the recently released vinyl remasters (some done at Abbey Road) and they are stupendous. Never, ever heard Rush sound like this. The various CD remasters were done earlier - some in the 90s, others I think around 2009. I've seem some complaints about the hit or miss quality, some brightness etc. The 2112 remaster CD seems to get good notices though, and I thought it sounded good on my system. (But none of them kick it like the vinyl remasters). |
would like some suggestions for a well recorded Rush cd. all i have heard and been bright and one dimensional. this is a great album and i am not a Mac fan by any means but the music is exciting and the recording quality is great. https://www.amazon.com/Tango-Night-Remastered-Fleetwood-Mac/dp/B01N9R3TIM/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=...
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Prof, how much for the drivers? I've been thinking about that myself as I'd like to keep my 3.7s pretty much forever and I imagine Coherent Source Services won't be around more than 10 years, if that long. My 2 2s are probably 25 years old and get used every day so I imagine the 3.7s probably have another 20 years of life left, maybe more. I agree about bigger speakers. There is no substitute for big drivers in a big box. |
My spare drivers for my 2.7s just arrived (coax, woofer, passive). Rob was great with communication and shipping. Highly recommended! Now I can breath easier when I crank my speakers, which I'm doing all the more these days as I'm re-buying old Kiss, Rush and Van Halen albums to blast through the house! One of the things I like so much about a floor standing speaker vs standmounted is the sense of scale and effortless quality when you turn up the sound. The Thiels especially have a very satisfying solidity and punch from top to the bottom of the bass, whereas other speakers (especially stand mounted speakers engineered with a hump to sound bigger than they are) tend to get a bit softer and "woofier" down bottom. For Van Halen, Alex's drums and Michael Anthony's bass guitar has a thunderous solidity that really rock the place. |
Dinopau... Yes, as I stated it is working. No worries about the site rules, I’ll be glad to give it to you for nothing provided you simply pay shipping/insurance. I’ll find a suitable box and protect it well enough. I’ve seen it listed on other sites for around $100-$150 so let’s insure it for that. That’s all - shipping + insurance and it’s your’s for ZIP. Depending on where you live from 11755 I’d guesstimate somewhere around $50 for the whole enchilada. Megillah. Thingamabob. Same goes for the drivers except I will NOT ship. Any Thielist within a reasonable distance of 11755 is welcome to them for ZIP. Nada. Zilch. Zero. The mids are not working but the tweeters and woofers worked fine. The crossovers too. Sequential serial numbers too. FREE. Good for backup just in case... |
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Jon, your experience coincides with mine and many, many more in my experience. The fact that the amp doesn't double into 4 ohms says that it is out of power as current demand increases. Thiel speakers have low impedance for high current appetite , especially in the bass. So, doubling your available current in the bass is germane. Your blown midrange was almost certainly caused by distortion which heated the midrange voice coil beyond its limits. As an aside, the only driver failures I have seen have been burned voice coils, caused by overheating, caused by distortion. In all the years of heavy-duty, overnight, stress and show conditions, I am not aware of ever "blowing" a Thiel driver. We had big amps with high current delivery power supplies. |
My experience with 3.7s and amps has been that when I got them I had a single Cambridge 840w. This is rated at 200 watts into 8 ohms, 300 watts into 4 ohms. It's not a monster amp but not tiny either. It worked ok but I did blow a midrange, not sure if it was due to clipping or not but it seems likely. Then I got another identical amp and ran them bridged mono for 600 or so watts into 4 ohms and I've been running them that way ever since. When I added the second amp I was surprised at how big of a difference it made in the bass. The definition was better even at moderate volumes. |
batmanfan, Thanks for posting that info form Gary Dayton. That makes some sense of why I hear the 3.7s as a bit more open and detailed vs the 2.7. The 3.7 also floats instruments better around the speakers when they are panned harder left or right, whereas they tend to come more from the speaker on the 2.7, so I get a bit more of a "U" shaped soundstage from the 2.7s vs the 3.7s. I had wondered if the 2.7s used aluminum for the baffle and now I know it does not. The Magico A3s speakers I recently auditioned also seemed to disappear better and float instruments nearby the speaker locations, and their cabinets are made of inert metal, so that makes some sense. |
I wanted to share some comments from Gary Dayton, who worked for Thiel for 10 years, and is now at Bryston, and here is what he said: "CS2.7s are very similar to CS3.7s. They don’t have quite the clarity because of the wood baffle vs. aluminum baffle and top. They have a touch more bass though perhaps not as extended. "My time as service manager for THIEL taught me that the vast majority of people damage their loudspeakers with underpowered amplifiers because they drive them into clipping which sends high amounts of high frequency signal to the speakers that can least handle it - midranges and tweeters. Those drivers then get burned voice coils. Put another way, listening at levels beyond what the speakers can handle is what damages them regardless of power." Combine this with the fact that my 2.7s has a low-to-average efficiency rating of 87db led me to get the 1000watt monoblocks. I’ve never looked back. By the way, do you guys remember this beauty, the Thiel MCS1.2? https://www.soundandvision.com/content/long-awaited-thiel-center Gary said he did the basic design you see there, but the sample wasn’t even playable. He said "the plan was ultimately to use a version of the CS1.7 woofers and the CS3.7s coax. An aluminum baffle cast like the SCS4 baffle in a bent plywood cabinet." Unfortunately, the plans were shelved after the new owners changed direction, and he suspects the sample is probably in a dump somewhere. I would have loved to have gotten my hands on it, and work with others here to get it in working order! |
Hi dancastagna, I’m afraid there are just too many options, combinations and permutations of pre/processors and amps for you to have a definitive, singular solution. Tom’s advice will certainly help narrow the field, but in the end, I think you will need to audition as best you can the variety of amps and processors to see which one best suits your taste in music and movies. When I decided to move up from the Anthems, I found that I preferred the more upfront presentation of the Brystons compared to the laid back attitude of the McIntoshes. And there is enough power and synergy from the amps that the music created with the Bryston/Thiel combo just sounds great to me despite the fact that the 28B amps don’t double down from 8ohm to 4ohm. There have been several recommendation from members here as to brands with which you can begin your search. While this can be a huge inconvenience, I find that the journey can be part of the fun...at least before you have to part ways with your hard-earned money! |
Hi Dhoff01, I noticed on AVS that you have in your procession what I believe to be Audiophile Nirvana. The CS 3.7 Gibson signed by no one other than Les Paul himself. Congrats, what do you run them with? Has any one heard anything on Datasat? AV processor and amps? is it a match for all Thiel HT? Dan |
Dan, if the MacIntosh amps deliver the same value into the three loads, the design is power-supply-current limited and will not do a good job. I have no current (ugh) knowledge of your best choices. Members here are quite well informed about best offerings. I have used Krell, Pass/Threshold, Ayre, Levinson, Conrad-Johnson and old (DR6 & 9) Classe. I have never heard a class D amp that I liked with Thiel. Whoever knows something definitive please speak up. |
tomthielMany Thanks! for the excellent commentary of your life as a young Man.No, I have not ridden a wild horse. A Quarter horse, yes. Beautiful creatures indeed. I own many books on the Grateful Dead and in their early days, lived on a commune ranch as well. Oh the stories and high times! Nothing was left to the imagination. Those guys had folkie aspirations combined with living in a hippie/counter-culture realm. Happy Listening! |
Thank You - Guys for keeping the discussions lively and engaging. There seems to be a few of you trying to sell an extra pair of speakers (CS2.7 and CS3.7 models). I concur, in that, these specific models fly under the radar from main street. Each loudspeaker is a musical treasure for sure. Each model is for historical significance as well. Vintage all of the way up to the CS 3.7, something for everyone's taste.Happy Listening! |
So Tom I was just applying your formula to a few amps to see which ones would be much higher ration from 8 ohms to 4 ohms and noticed the Mcintosh was 1 to 1 meaning they were the same wpc output for 8 4 or 2. what are your top few choices for thiel? Right now still need ALL electronics for 2ch/HT line up is CS 2.7 left right mains, MCS1 for center, CS 1.7 for rears and 4 Thiel Power plane 1.2's and Two SS2 subs. I have to get this right,,,, way to much to get to this point. While i'm asking about amps my goal is to end up with a system that excels at 2ch with a HT with atmos. Have all the speakers. THANK YOU Dan |
Oblgny, do you have Thiel CS3.5 bass equalizer properly working? If so how much are you asking? I am not familiar with the policy of this forum so please let me know if we have to talk separately. Jafant and all, thank you for your support, today I sent another mail to Mr Gillum asking if he can keep my eq and take all the time of this world to fix it. Fingers crossed.... Cheers |
In the long run, I believe the 2.7 (and 1.7) will become collectors' items. They were made in Lexington after Jim's death and before the sale, using old-Thiel type parts (high purity inductors, PP caps with PS bypasses, etc. on point to point boards. The 2.7 uses the 3.7 coax with a smaller woofer for a hypothetically "easier" crossover than the 3.7. I suspect that further tweaking, such as replacing the big electrolytics with PPs might make the 2.7 one for history. |
It seems a lot of people have old Classe amps sitting around. I've got a pair of CA200s from 1996 that haven't been used in 5+ years. They developed intermittent crackling sounds that I couldn't get fixed. I replaced them with a pair of Cambridge 840s that I run bridged mono. They've been good. I find them more neutral than the Classe and they seem to have plenty of power, at least for my purposes. Cambridge tends to be high performance/marginal quality from what I've read but these amps have worked perfectly since I've had them. We'll see how long they last. I'm not surprised that it's tough to sell the 2.7s. I decided a long time ago that most "audiophiles" don't actually care that much about absolute sound quality. It's a factor but looks, novelty, preferred colorations, how much attention something is getting in the press make a bigger difference. Thiel was never big on exotic materials or other talking points that may have helped sales but that may or may not have improved the sound. People who want accuracy are a niche within the high end audio niche. |
thanks Dan and Prof for your comments. it is funny that your brother may have liked the 2.7's better as my girlfriend likes them better too. i think that the "sweeter" mid bass sound is what appeals to her as they have a bit more warmth in some ways than the 3.7's. Hell if i cannot sell them, i might have to sell the 3.7's as i cannot afford to keep both. |
