Thiel Owners

The x.7 drivers are indeed breakthrough design. That said, the 2.4 drivers are very mature and made and tested in Lexington with significant, advanced technologies. The 2.7 cabinet is stiffer, but the 2.4 will come close in vibrational performance, especially after tweaking. Regarding passive component quality, the upgrades will leap-frog the stock x.7 series into pretty rarified territory. We can expect some veils to be lifted by applying technologies that were out of reach for the stock product line.

FYI: I have contacted the world leader in audio cryogenic immersion. I am previously familiar with what can go right and wrong in that process, and how to stay out of trouble. I will be comparing stock and cryo-treated crossovers to evaluate efficacy. 

well us A'gon guys will be most interested in how your speakers evolve and i appreciate what you are doing.  i had 2.4's before getting the 2.7's and the 2.7's were better for sure.   but with the mods to your speakers,  i bet you have closed the gap.  i suspect that you have increased the resale value as anyone following this thread will certainly appreciate the updates.  it has taken a long time for my new 3.7's to break in as they had some new drivers installed by Rob,  and so now they are finally surpassing the 2.7's. 
May Thiel live long and prosper.

you should buy my 2.7's :)

LOL! Actually, there was a pair of white CS2.7s on A'gon just after I bought my SEs and for <$500 more. That had me second guessing. The 2.7 coax is almost certainly better than that on my SEs. But I'm committed to these SEs now as I've modded the XOs. That probably damaged the resale value even while notably improving the SQ. I need to see this project thru' to the end. And when I get there, they will almost certainly sound better than stock 2.7s (tbh, never auditioned the 2.7).

hi Beetle,   maybe you should buy my 2.7's :)

I really think these will be the speakers they bury me with

Yes! I was already happy with my CS2.4SEs and the resistor upgrade has been *very* satisfying (I think the new resistors are still breaking in, they keep sounding better and better). Other than the physical limitations of an 8" woofer and passive radiator, I think Tom Thiel's crossover upgrade will make my 2.4s sonically competitive with all but the very be$t design$. And I imagine these could be my last speakers.

from an email from Rob G:  The stabilizer pins are an internal part of the CS3.7, and should show some improvements with them in place. Especially in the bass region. The important thing is that the speakers are making contact with the sub-floor, for improvements in the bass. The outriggers do improve the footprint, and keep them from being turned over easily, but they also provide improved bass response.

@tomthiel     wow that is so interesting.   i understand your love of the 2.2's.   I owned those from 1991-2007 (2.0 series before and 2.4 after) and they were the ones that really hooked me on the Thiel brand.  I have yet to own any of the others for that long a period.  all those years and i only lost one tweeter which Gary Dayton replaced for free and literally i had it the next day). it is amazing what you are doing and we Thiel guys thank you for it. my  speaker is now the 3.7 and i know you are working on  those as well though they are last on the list and understandably so.   I really think these will be the speakers they bury me with and i am only 65 so they have to be good for at least 20 more years.  BTW i totally understand your comment about sufficient life force.   we hit a point where we really have to carefully allocate our time and energy.   Thank you so much for doing what you are doing. 

Fitter and all, the way the upgrade project is shaping up is to target the most mature iterations of separate-driver classic systems first (with exceptions.) There are many thousands of pairs out there approaching eventual electrolytic capacitor problems. The targets are PowerPoint 1.2 (because I use them in my recording /documentation work and think they have serious professional potential) CS1.6 (no expressed interest), CS2 2 (because I use my pair in my work and it is very special) and CS3.6 for the same reasons. These models use Thiel-developed drivers with proprietary and patented technologies, mature enclosure designs and considerable performance upgrade headroom. The CS5(i) is not on the list. Its fundamental upgrade option is to replace the huge bucket-brigade delay lines with a re-engineered baffle to place the drivers in correct offsets for time-coincidence and elimination of dozens of capacitors and resistors in the signal path. I have ideas and skills, but insufficient life-force to take on that project. Similarly the CS3.5. The CS x.7s will come later. They do have upgrade potential, but are stable in their present lives for now. CS2.4 is in the first tier because of broad interest, significant potential and beetlemania's willingness to collaborate.

All models will have an inboard and outboard option. Inboard space constraints limit some capacitor and coil choices, but all electrolytics will be replaced by high-functioning propylene caps, and feed coils replaced with 4-9s foil coils. Outboard applies same strategies with some larger, higher-voltage feed caps and larger gauge coils and optimized layouts. The cap choices settled on ClarityCap and Multicap RTX bypasses, after exhaustive research and correlation with Thiel history and values. All parts are ordered for first-round samples for PP inboard, PP outboard, CS2 2 inboard, and CS2.4 outboard. We'll be making music this summer.

I will be using an unconventional evaluation approach, rather than MLSSA and related lab development and measurement tools, which I don't have, but would love to find a collaborator for. I use Metric Halo SpectraFoo, a pro-audio tool for tuning rooms, performances and recording, mixing and mastering music, along with some precision meters and scopes. Our benchmark method will be the system I use for my professional instrument and music making. We'll record live in my studio direct to hard disc at 24x192kHz for playback in the same recording space through the same signal chain, through speakers under test. We have live thru playback (music or technical content) with very few unknowns and considerable control and documentation of bass, peak and mix levels. The results going in and coming out are all sampled and analyzed via technical measurements and simultaneous listening. Someone could build a speaker company on this methodology . . . 

You might notice that this scenario looks like more than an after-work undertaking. It is and I don't know how that will all settle. But I am enjoying this challenge and have high hopes for outcomes. Stay tuned.

beetlemaniaThank You for the added information.
Happy Listening!

Thank You for the tip - ronkent.Happy Listening!

Welcome! fitter468good to read that you found this thread and have been a Thiel owner since 1992/93. I look forward in learning more about you and your system. Musical genre(s) , tastes as well.
Happy Listening!

This thread keeps getting better and better! Tom thiel I enjoy reading all your posts! I have owned my 3.6s since 1992/93 that I purchased new I would be interested in an upgrade probably inboard  but would consider outboard unless I find a pair of cs 5is Thanks David

hi Tom and Jafant,   this thread gets better and better.   thank you all so much.  I would,  from my experience with both brass feet from mapleshade, and the GAIA feet, try them in your system.   i liked the brass feet a lot, and my girlfriend preferred them over the GAIA,  but i like the openness and extra  dimensionality  that the sound had with the GAIA.  I preferred both to the stock feet.  For what it is worth,   Harry Weisfield of VPI uses the GAIA under his KEF blades. 

Thank You - tomthielyour description of coupling and resonance nails it down perfectly. I would like to think that Outriggers adds a bonus aspect on an already perfect loudspeaker design.
Happy Listening!

Indeed, the inboard and outboard options are different beasts. Space / layout constrains parts selection inboard. Making progress every day.

Regarding spikes . . . my knowledge is rather primitive, since all my work was long ago, before any commercial products were available, so there is plenty I don't know. I'll tell what I know. We found hearable and measureable time-domain slurring caused by recoil-swaying of the "unanchored" speaker cabinet. The woofer moves the cabinet in amounts which are very significant to tweeter frequencies, especially their transient attack/timing/phase behavior. Over many years' experience I found the presentation to be more focused with spikes. And transient tests measure more cleanly when spiked. As usual, there are other considerations. Speakers on carpet usually sound smoother, mellower . . . more polite, "nicer". I judge that mellowness to be caused by subtraction of transient detail. And another thing: direct coupling to a wooden floor can cause coupling resonances in the under-structure, euphonic-harmonic and/or dissonant, which are not stimulated with the insulating carpet or isolation-type feet. Another note is that spikes that are not locked down can absorb energy via motion losses between the threads.

There are so many particulars and mitigating circumstances that I hesitate to comment. But you asked, and my comment is that rock-solid stability at the micron scale aids the speaker in its job of transient replication.

^^^ Thanks for the added info.  

I forgot that the new crossovers would be outboard. That would almost certainly rule them out for me.

Tom Thiel is planning both as options. The outboard versions are likely to be more tricked out. Internal mounting is space limited and reduces the options for big capacitors and so forth. From the pics I’ve seen, the CS3.7 has one or two 100 uF electrolytic caps and something like four 75 uF ’lytic caps. Upgrading all of these to film caps (probably Clarity CSA) will need a lot more space and it seems unlikely that you could simply replace the ELs with film without also changing the layout . . . and taking a bite out of the cabinet space. Still, Tom is planning an upgrade path for those who don’t want to go outboard.

thanks guys for the input

ronkentI can offer my perspective on the outriggers query. During my initial then critical auditions of the CS 2.4 and CS 2.4SE loudspeakers, my ears found that the CS 2.4 can go without the outriggers (carpet over slab). The CS 2.4SE exhibited a subtle overall sweetness from top to bottom with the outriggers (carpet over slab). I did listen to both models over 100 hours each prior to making my decision about which speaker to purchase.I figure that coupling plays a factor regarding the CS 2.4SE. Perhaps Tom or Rob can share a little more insight?Happy Listening!

Oh, right, I forgot that the new crossovers would be outboard.  That would almost certainly rule them out for me.

@prof I should add that the layouts will be different, especially for the outboard solution. This, more than the change in parts quality, is why Tom wants to ensure that the new orientation is not deleterious.

@beetlemania,

Thanks for the updgrade info.  That's more comforting that parts values will remain so similar.

ronkent,

Yes for the most part I've used the Thiels sitting on my floor (shag rug over wood floor) - no spikes, nuthin'.

I like playing with speaker positions so I recently put some Herbie's gliders under them (which screw in to where the spikes go).  It raised the Thiels a bit and to my ear thinned the sound a tiny bit.  I tried to make up for the height change by angling the Thiels a tiny bit down toward me.
Seemed to get a bit better.

But whenever I've tried footer thingy's, the tone of the speaker gets dark and base gets less tight.  Everything snaps together when they are just sitting on the carpet.

i asked my distributor if he could order the lastest crossovers in 2015 he told me Thiel didn't have them available anymore.

Well, the only person to ask now is Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service. He has an easy inquiry form on his website and he has replied to my multiple queries within a few hours if it’s a business day.

I prefer the sound *with* the outriggers. Not sure how much is due to better floor coupling versus the added 2” higher axis.

Has anyone tried comparing the sound with and without the outriggers that Thiel provided?

I am curious since we are on the subject of various support devices for the speakers.  Has anyone tried comparing the  sound with and without the outriggers that Thiel provided?   also i found this which sure looks interesting if one has an extra 2 grand lying around.  https://www.thecableco.com/seismic-speaker-bars-size-3-set-of-4.html

beetlemaniaThank You for posting the preliminary results of your efforts. Keep up the research and testing. Have fun while doing it as well.
Happy Listening!

profgo for it! I have read about other Thiel owners using the Townsend speaker base(s) to good effect. Keep us posted on your efforts.
Happy Listening!

Speaking of tweaking did any of you 3.7 owners were able to order the latest crossovers that were available for the last 3.7s produced in 2013 and 2014 if i recall ?My pair is a 2010 model and when i asked my distributor if he could order the lastest crossovers in 2015 he told me Thiel didn't have them available anymore.

@prof   I would try the GAIA feet as Music Direct offers a 100% refund if not happy.  i think they are very different in design from the isopucks and should work much better.  I like my ears about 4" below the tweeter and here is something i copied from Stereophile:  Setup was relatively simple—as simple as manipulating a slippery, asymmetrical, 45"-tall, 91-lb object can be. I sited the CS3.7s 5' from the front wall and 21" from the sidewalls. I sat 91" away, with my ears about 4" below the tweeter axis. (Thiel says the ideal position is "at least 2" below the tweeter's axis.") I then screwed in the CS3.7's massive floor spikes. If you have small children or a large pet, Thiel offers "stabilizer" bars that outrig the spikes, giving the speakers a larger footprint.

anyway, are you saying you use the speakers directly on the floor with no feet at all.  never tried that but i would audition the GAIA feet.  
 

I'm a bit gun-shy about messing with the tone of my 2.7s

The upgrade circuit is nearly identical to OEM. “Nearly” in that bypass caps will alter capacitance by about 1%. Otherwise all cap, inductor, and resistor values are unchanged from Jim Thiel’s circuit. The difference is a substantial upgrade in parts quality. Tom Thiel posted earlier that Jim was well aware of the benefits of higher quality parts but made his choices to optimize the performance/price curve and keep his speakers attainable for regular working folks.

But there are audible improvements for those willing to open their wallets some more, especially given the increased performance with time. Many of the parts Tom is planning for the upgrades were simply not available 10-20 years ago. I consider my CS2.4s to have excellent cabinets and, especially, drivers. But there is ample opportunity to upgrade the crossovers and get notably better SQ.

That said, Tom Thiel will be measuring the results of the upgrades to ensure that the balance is not upset in some unpredictable way. 

ronkent,

I was quite interested in the GAIA for quite a while and intended on trying them with the Thiels.

However, I ended up buying some Isoacoustic Iso-pucks which I was thinking of using under my turntable platform.  I tried them under one of my Thiel speakers and didn't care for the effect - tended to make the sound a bit more flubby and less alive.  (Which could all be due only to the acoustic effects of raising the speaker - I can't be sure).

But it did dampen my enthusiasm for spending more money on the GAIA.

My speakers tend to sound best simply sitting on the floor, no spikes or risers.  I tried some other risers again - some Herbie big footers which not only add some isolation, but make them easy to shift the speaker position.  Yet again, I found raising the speakers to sound a bit less preferable to simply sitting on the floor.

I am intrigued quite a bit by the Townshend isolation base for speakers, a they are designed to isolate the speakers from the floor without raising them up, and I had terrific success using the Townsend spring-based pods for isolating my turntable (very big measurable difference with a vibration-measurement app when the pods were used under the turntable base)

tomthiel,

I look forward to the results of your efforts!

I'm a bit gun-shy about messing with the tone of my 2.7s, but if I read some brave soul happy about upgrades I may go for it. (That is, if such upgrades become available for the 2.7).

@prof i too agree with the speakers ability to disappear,  but then that has been a hallmark of the speakers since i started with them way back.one suggestion i have for those willing to experiment,  is try some of the feet from GAIA.  i liked them better than the stock feet that come with them. 

Prof, I agree with you. The cabinets are extraordinary in both anti-diffraction and inertness. I regard Thiel's cabinet engineering as state of the art. The approach I am taking is to investigate all areas where additional input might make improvements. Various test reports, such as John Atkinson's thorough work in Stereophile, show various resonant anomalies which I may be able to minimize with minimal cost.

The drivers are fixed and excellent. The cabinets may benefit from small tweaks. The crossovers are the main focus. New improved parts quality throughout and optional outboarding are the main impetus. We are experimenting with 4-nines foil coils in the signal-path feeds and up-sized 4-nines round wire in the shunts, Mills MRA-12 audio resistors throughout and returning to point to point layouts. This undertaking is a labor of love for me and in no way meant to disparage the existing products.

Improvements are always good.
But for me I have to say the last thing on my list I'd write down as "needing improvement" is the cabinet behavior of the 3.7s.
I say that because I find the 3.7s to already beat just about any other speaker I've heard in terms of sounding utterly boxless.  It's one of the main things I notice every time I came home from auditioning even the latest, greatest speakers.  The 3.7s disappeared as detectable sound soruces (at least in my room) more effortlessly than any of them.

Right On! tomthielI think that it is safe to say, this Panel,  is behind you all of the way.
Looking forward in reading about your next research update. Hope that all of your knowledge and resources are working out well.Happy Listening!

Jay, the cabinets are very quiet, but some issues are present. The 3.7 sings a little where the side meets the cap, and so forth. I'm just saying that we can make incremental improvements beyond the original performance parameters. Such on-going improvements happen regularly in many high-end product lines. We intend to keep Thiel alive in that way.

tomthielThank You for the update. Hope you are well and having fun testing, building cross-overs, guitars and speakers. I have personally lifted and carried models CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7, 3.7 during the many auditions at various dealers/retailers. In my mind, it is hard to believe that any of those cabinets are deemed "noisy"? Keep progressing forward in our hobby.
Happy Listening!

My pleasure - ronkent.I have only been in the Thiel game since 2012 (and what a sweet year it was indeed!). It is contributors like you, having been in the field since 1985 or longer, that ,makes this thread live and breathe. I think that we can all relate about having this musical love affair since our teens. Add to this fact all of the wonderful gear to make our speakers jump and shout.
Last, but certainly not in the least, we have been graced with the presence of Mr. Tom Thiel and Mr. Rob Gillum to ensure the Thiel bloodline stays stronger than ever.
"Music is my Mistress" -Duke Ellington
Happy Listening!

@jafant  greetings,  i am not sure of the cables but i know he likes Clarus.   the Magico guy was there to make sure it was done right.  they are probably the most accurate speaker i have ever heard,  but again, they are in another price league from used 3.7's (mine came from Rob G).  i think at this level,  i could be happy for many a year, and i have used Thiel exclusively since 1985.   thanks for starting this thread way back. 

I recently purchased a pair of CS 2.7 that I am running with a peachtree nova 300 and accessing Tidal as a source. I found the highs a little bright and the lows so so.

I've not heard this amp but class D amps are reported to be generally less musical (albeit gobs of power for a low price). You might try a solid state design from ARC, Ayre, Classe', or Pass (among others). In the meantime, make sure your placement and room are optimized. Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" is a good place to start without spending a bunch of money.

Hi Guys, As Beetle mentioned, I have a system for identifying cabinet misbehavior that permits real-time experimentation and amelioration. I use Chladni Patterns in my acoustic guitar design, I love the method, and will summarize here as applied to enclosures. On each panel in sequence, sprinkle glitter (etc), drive the cabinet with variable sine wave, stop when glitter bounces. The physical resonance patterns are mapped via glitter bouncing off the moving anti-nodal areas and accumulating in the still nodes. A seismic map! Take a photo. Increase signal frequency and repeat. Do all the panels.
One neat part is that correlations are easy to make on all panels, allowing a 3-D visualization and suggesting direct intervention strategies. This method is low-tech and enormously informative.
I have identified some modes on my CS2 2s, which are easily addressed. We can quiet down all the cabinets.

On other fronts, good progress is being made. Parts are on order for Beetle's 2.4SEs and my PowerPoint 1.2s. 

Thank You - ronkentfor speaking about your demo with the Magico system. I have often spoke about rising to that kind of level (Magico, Verity Audio or Joseph Audio Pearl)to possibly better the CS 3.7 loudspeaker. And yes, that is the $20-30K neighborhood for speakers alone. Good to read that you enjoyed yourself.Do you recall the cabling used?Happy Listening!

Welcome!  dancastagna
there is a plethora of good information in this thread. The CS 2.7 is an excellent loudspeaker. Feed it with the best sources and you will be musically rewarded. The highs are highly resolving, very clean and clear.Most will describe this attribute with acting bright and/or forward. Careful cable -matching is a must as well. Thiel speakers respond to both solid state and tubed gear, something for every Audiophile. Buying used or demo is the way to go! This is a great and fun hobby. You are well on your way.Happy Listening!

thanks Beetle:  i will wait and see what TT comes up with.  I am guessing i could swap out the entire crossover easier than changing parts but not sure. truthfully it sounds great right now but i am going to keep my eyes and ears open for the TT updates.  thanks for the links regarding cabinet resonances.   will check them out.   i bet your 2.4's sound great.  i had a pair and they were terrific but sold them when i got the 2.7's. 

@dancastagna.   greetings.  i have been using the 2.7's for the last three plus years, and just now am replacing with 3.7's.  they are not bright speakers but also are not going to whitewash a bright source.  I think you will love the speakers and it is easier to audition new electronics than to be constantly changing speakers.  i have great luck with the PS audio BHK line and you might want to check out their Stellar line,  though i have not heard it myself.  But the fact that the lows are so so tells me that you have issues that are not in the speaker as that speaker has excellent bottom end.  I asked Rob at Coherent about that $85 crossover and he told me to stay away.   Just remember that this speaker likes a powerful and balanced amp.   anything less and you will not get the sound it is capable of

Hi All,

I recently purchased a pair of CS 2.7 that I am running with a peachtree nova 300 and accessing Tidal as a source. I found the highs a little bright and the lows so so.  I purchased these pieces used because I was tired of reading and not listening and learning hands on. I should first tell you i'm 52 and just 3 months ago heard for the very first time a legit Audiophile system. What rock have I been under!! I cant believe I haven't done this sooner rang through my head. So from that day I have been trying to educate myself so I do this once and do it right! After a couple months of this dance I decided to just buy a used system that I could at least play with and learn hands on,  Will Thiels SS-2 Smart Sub work with the 2.7's? Also I found an available "Filter" for high mids on Ebay for $85 is that a scam? Didn't know rules on dropping a link here. If it could take a little bit of the edge of the high end it would be worth it.

Thank you,

Dan



 

The Thiels i am thinking, have more cabinet resonances and nothing will change that. Changing speakers is such a pain (selling and shipping the old ones for example) that i probably will be keeping these for many years. the crossover upgrade sounds awesome but i for one am not qualified to go in and change everything so i guess that it is not in my future.

Tom Thiel has an idea for identifying cabinet resonances and, possibly, addressing them. Stay tuned. In the meantime, the CS3.7 is not too bad in that regard:https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements
For comparison, here is a $50K Wilson (Wilson makes some of the very best cabinets in the business): https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-loudspeaker-measurements

If you are not comfortable building new crossovers, I imagine there will be a couple of options depending your confidence level with a soldering gun: 1) Rob Gillum can build and install these, altho' that means shipping or personally transporting your speakers to Lexington; or 2) the CS3.7 boards appear easily accessible: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/thiel_audio_carries_on.htm
(assuming that panel isn't glued on), so you might have Rob Gillum build the new boards, ship them to you, and you would only need to replace the boards. Alternatively, you could have someone local do this last bit (friend or technician at a local shop). But temper any excitement you might have - Tom is unlikely to have a solution for the CS3.7 until next year.

I have the CS2.4SE, now with Mills MRA-12 resistors over the OEM sandcast resistors. This was a worthwhile upgrade! I have ordered new bypass caps and will build entirely new boards later this year.

@beetlemania  PS:  i am sure you have told us,  but what speaker do you have.