Thiel Owners

Check out the Lyngdorf 3400 It address the room!! and integrates subs perfectly!   

Bryston BDA-3

thosb,  i certainly recommend the newer DAC from PS,  but think that we spend too much time worrying about the gear.  as i posted earlier,   efforts to fix the room and putting in a PS power re-generator will fix a lot of issues.

frozentundra - good question - I have a PS Audio Perfectwave, haven't auditioned anything else in my newish system, and did get some feedback via the virtual system post suggesting a McIntosh DAC would bring more warmth, less dry air to the overall sound?  I plan on trying room treatments first (and maybe cables) but it does make make me wonder....

Happy Friday! All.

@frozentundra Benchmark DAC2 here with CS3.5s.

@dancastagna  a modest Classé Audio CAP-151 integrated.Obviously the jump in performance from where i'm at now to either the Ypsilon pre-power or the Aries Cerat pre-power will be out of this world.I have the possibility to audition the Aries Cerat Impera II Ref + Concero 65 monos on a  pair of 3.7s in Switzerland by the end of this year.

Gents;

As Thiels are "somewhat" resolving
lol
What DAC's do you guys run to get the most out of the system?

are there some that accentuate brightness or edge.

Jeff

apologies Prof, got you crossed up with Dhoff. Running dedicated breaker makes alot of sense.  

hi Dan,  if you are serious about the P10 please let me know.  i will not be selling it until next month when i receive the P15 as it is on back order.  they are serious devices and are not just conditioners.  for those who are interested, please watch some of the videos on the PS site explaining why and how they work.   if we all listened to music at 2am we probably would not need them as much as that is when the power lines are the cleanest.  but since i have had one,   especially the P10,  i have not had to worry about it.   there is no snake oil with any PS products. 

It seems to me that if there were really a significant problem with the power coming from the wall that sources and preamps past a pretty moderate price point would all be battery powered.  It wouldn't be particularly expensive to implement.  You don't need to turn AC into DC anymore.  Low power components don't use that much electricity so you wouldn't need huge batteries.  It could be easily designed so that it automatically switched between two batteries where one was charging while the other was in use and the battery in use was completely physically isolated from the dirty AC.  

I've thought about trying it myself with my Benchmark DAC2.  I don't think a lot of people realize it but they'll accept DC so you could, if you wanted, string some batteries together and power it that way.  Complete isolation would be better than the best power cord and power conditioner.  The DAC only takes 15 watts I think.  

dcancastagna,

I don’t have a slp-05.

But I do have a lot of equipment - all my home theater source equipment on one rack, and beside it all my 2 channel equipment (which include Conrad Johnson Premier 16LS2 pre-amp, Conrad Johnson mono block tube amps, an Eico HF-81 integrated tube amp, Benchmark Dac, Transrotor turntable, phono stage, JL Audio crossover, raspberry pi server...)

I have most of it plugged in to some Furman power bars, as they are good quality, a perfect design for where they had to go, and I at least wanted some level of protection as we have quite a number of futzes and power outs in our power.

In my own research looking in to power conditioners, and looking in to what people from various sides had to say, I was not sold on them. And it did seem that even the more "objectivist" electrical engineer types seemed to agree that they are more apt to be deleterious than beneficial - e.g. they can in principle limit the power going to your amp when it needs sudden big surges. So most said best to just plug power amps in to the wall - most people’s power is fine and most decent amps have a power supply designed to handle the level of noise they are most likely to encounter.


I had a dedicated line put in quite a while ago, and my amps go in to there. My sources/preamps etc go in to the furman power bar.

Hi Thieliste what are you feeding your 3.7 with now? 

Prof Thank you! This is why I asked. I guess your slp-05 isn't plugged into a power conditioner! So that's two thumbs up for the PS power regenerator over the box of snake oil, So it might be some shirts and a p10 from you Ronkent   

I don't know that gear, but I have some relevant experience. First, with regenerated power with good specs and enough storage, it doesn't need to be reconditioned. Proper regeneration is proper power. When mixing and mastering music and burning first-item gold master CDs, I have always waited until the electricity cleaned up around 2:AM to noticeable sonic improvement over daytime electricity, even with industrial line filters.

Clean power is a big deal. I don't know the current products or PS' offerings, but it is worth paying attention to, in my opinion.

hi Jon,   it is an amazing device and i would make it the number one piece in my system.  it allows all the devices that plug into it to run and sound better.  i think we audio guys typically spend too much attention on the gear and not enough on the room and the quality of the electricity that feeds it.

I can vouch ronkent's remarks. I run all my gear through a PS Audio P10 and it makes a noticeable difference. Voltage into the P10 fluctuates and voltage out is steady....it regenerates the power but does not condition it. 

hi Dan,   all i can tell you is that basically it is like having your own power company.  i am not qualified to describe how it works,  but boy it does work. The difference is not subtle.   everything is just better.  It completely recreates the electricity that feeds your amp and other gear.   I am selling my P10 in order to step up to the P15.  I have learned that when Paul McGowan says something is a big improvement,  then it is. 

As for my shirts,  they are great.  best we have ever carried.  

dancastagna,

Why do you think you need power conditioners? Is that perhaps something your dealer is telling you because he sells power conditioners?   Dealers aren't always the best consultants on how to spend your money :)


Maybe make sure you look at what you really need before being influenced to overspend.

So dealer is telling me I need a power conditioners that doesn't limit power, suggesting I buy a Shunyata Venom PS8 and an msp model. Ronkent The PS regenerators I understand holds  power in reserve but does it clean it also? Does it make a difference if running tubes or other? Also I am going to step up and try your peruvian T shirts ;)  o ya 

Good to see you - thielisteI must admit that not familiar with either of these brands. Keep us posted on which way you go.  Happy Listening!

Hi guys i will be going the separates route for my CS 3.7s and my choice is either the Ypsilon Aelius II monos or the Aries Cerat Concero 65 monos.It will be a difficult choice because both brands are awsome.

Much Thanks! beetlemaniaI have read about other Thiel CS 2.4 owners using an AX-7 integrated amp to good effect. We all listen at different levels (SPL). I did not know the capability of power output real world for an AX-7/AX-5 ?
Happy Listening!

@jafant I don’t have an SPL meter. I can tell you that I don’t listen at ear-piercing levels. I used to use an AX-7 to drive Vandy 2s and I could get that combo to clip but only at levels too loud for me. My room is ~18x19 with a vaulted ceiling 8-12’ (plus two large openings on the rear wall). I have yet to hear the AX-5 clip with the 2.4s. If you like the Ayre sound and want more power you can move up to the VX-5 separate or a used V-1. The MX-Rs have even more power and should drive pretty much anything but you better come with deep pockets!

dancastagna
Very sweet looking speaker cables. It would be interesting to learn if that cable could be used on a different brand of power amp? Consider consulting the seller to inquire more about applications. Keep me posted on your purchase decision.
Happy Listening!

Good to see you - beetlemania
I am considering an Ayre power amp as well. Not sure about the integrated or separates? Certainly the Twenty series pulls out all of the stops. How loudly do you listen? No report of clipping is  very good sign.
Happy Listening!

Hi Tom, 

Thanks for the reply. Gives me some hope I have nothing to worry about with the caps.

Dsper

There are well respected amplifiers that don't double. Ayre, for example.

Ayre doesn't give a 2 Ohm spec but not sure why you wrote this. Ayre specs *all* of their amps as doubling into 4 Ohms. The AX-5 JA measured did show signs of stress at 2 Ohms but otherwise reacted well as the current demand increased on his test bench. I have the Twenty version of the AX-5 which is said to have slightly improved power over the original version and I will attest that it sounds really effing good driving my CS2.4SEs  :)

Audition not possible, I have watched the 5300 sell in a day or so but the 5200 linger. Thank you for helping the newbe! I know this is a really bad topic but you guys know better than anyone,  the seller of amp has a pair         https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis91f0c-mcintosh-cs3m-speaker-cables-2-meter-pair-speaker   will these work with 2.7 ?

Dan, I don't know that amp. The power specs look great and they withhold the lower impedance specs due to AC-mains overload with all channels firing. Nothing like a real audition to prove its merits to you.

Good to have you back in the fold of things - dancastagna
I wonder as well how many are using a newer or more recent, 2000 and forward, Classe' power amp?  The 90's models seem to be coveted.
I guess we all can query about an older, 1999 and backward, Krell or Mark Levinson?
Happy Listening!

I have been away and didn't keep up with thread, Wow lots of cool conversations! and the analogy of talking about your kids!! HA so true,  loved all the albums everyone shared and really rekindled some music,  ! The Doors and the Sound track to Blade runner... oboy what a treat for the Thiels!  I also laughed my ass off counting how many Gibson models were in attendance but then cried when I saw what Corvett01 sold his for.  Prof had me flashing back to my youth and the days of the Hustle with the Saturday Night Fever. These box's we all share are Thiel Time Machines! For the record I wasn't 100% disco. I remember seeing the Who in Shea Stadium (loudest concert on record) and the Palladium and Studio 54 that same night!  Sorry for rambling.

  Mr Tom Thiel question will this amp work with 2ch/home Theater? CS2.7 as main Msc1 center cs 1.7 rear   https://classeaudio.com/ca-5300/   I have left them a few messages asking for 4 ohm 2 etc...  Thought Tom or someone here might know some history. I was going to run all 9 speakers with PS audio M700 but now just the 4 atmos power plain 1.2  Thank you all for the album sharing again.  Dan
                

Tom, your response is greatly appreciated. I have an extra woofer but it sounds like there may be more wrong. The equalizer was just serviced a few months ago and that was what started me to examine this more closely. Thanks

dspr, my recollection (unreliable) is that there were no electrolytic caps in the CS5. Film caps are stable or get better with age. I'll keep an eye and ear out to confirm my suspicion. Does anybody know?

thielrules, troubleshooting is a hands-on undertaking. I'll speculate a little, but the problem needs actual triage, both speakers and the eq.
The deep bass looks like the green channel has the eq and the red channel does not: textbook 12dB/octave rolloff. The red channel from 80 to 300 might be a woofer problem or the bottom end of the midrange phase-lagging causing that periodic (cancellation?) pattern. Of special interest is the combined blue output from 250 to 1K is lower than either speaker. This graph implies phase / polarity issues in the red speaker or the eq.

I suggest you take out the eq, change cables, measure each speaker in the identical room location, swap amp channels, etc. to gather meaningful troubleshooting data.

Perhaps you can arrange an appointment with Rob to send him your preliminary data beforehand and take your speakers when he's ready to put them on the bench.

Good to see you - dsper
Nice system. I hope one of the guys here or Rob Gillum may be of service to you. Keep us posted on this development.
Happy Listening!

Here is just a link to the graph of left speaker (5ft), right speaker (5 ft) and both speakers (16 ft) Same signal sweep for each measurement.https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Ft6xYyKt7vg--wdn5KplLU0Y5hZ7b4s/view?usp=sharing
More detailed info if you download data file for REW.

Thanks Tom, the data files are used in REW to chart the values of frequency responses. After downloading the files, just open them in REW (room equalizer wizard). Rob, who is just around the corner from me is pretty busy and I hate to miss my speakers for weeks but I'm prepared to do it, if it can be fixed.

thielrules, I can't read your attached files nor do I have a 3.5 schematic.
Although the role of caps is to block low frequencies and the woofer circuit doesn't have caps in its series feed, there are some smaller values in the shunt circuits which could lessen woofer output via passing more bass to ground. But, my recollection (fairly dim) is that all those 3.5 shunts were mylar film caps, which have an indefinite life.

If an electrolytic cap has actually failed, it will usually show leaking goo. E caps are labeled "NP" for non-polar.

This gig is something that Rob Gillum may help you solve.

dsper, cap failure is a gradual thing until they might blow up, which should cause considerable sonic change. Gradual failing can be heard as frequency shifts in the xo regions, especially at high power and possibly noises like gurgling or sloshing water. As I mentioned, Rob has not seen any cap failures, Thiel used very high quality caps. The rule of thumb is 20 to 40 years of heavy use plus or minus 20. I'm not being facetious; if a cap is going to fail, it often fails in the short term. And if it's going to last, it generally lasts a long time. Yours didn't fail early, so they're probably good for a few decades.

Rob at Coherent Source Service could replace your E caps or talk you through doing it yourself. Also, we are developing crossover upgrades using 21st century passive parts. Our upgrades-in-development will not use electrolytic caps to address the fact that those interested enough to resurrect and upgrade classic Thiel speakers would be well served to never have to worry about caps again. The polypropylene replacements cost an order of magnitude more than stock NPs. We are exploring cost-effective solutions at two levels; it's a little early to announce brands, but we are making progress. 

thanks Jafant.   except for the speakers and my old Oracle table,  everything else is PS.  great company,  great products,  great service and made in the USA.

Thank You - ronkentPS Audio has become quite a force in the industry and our hobby.Paul and his company have certainly grown and expanded by research and development. I would have never thought that, outside of line/power conditioners and regenerators, he would offer pre-power amps or dac/transport/streamer(s).I wish that I had more Audio company/manufacturer representative(s) here.The invitation is extended to those guys as well.

Happy Listening!

Hi,

I am listening to "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster" on Verve right now.

Hegel HD 25 DAC, AudioSpace CD8 as transport, Prima Luna Dialogue Premium, Coda CS, and Thiel CS5's.

It sounds very good to me but I am wondering about the age of the Thiels.

How does one tell when it is time for new E Caps?

Dsper

Good to see you - thielrules
the Bryston 3B-ST is still a very capable power amp. Does it perform well on your other pair of 3.5 speakers? Agreed at 30 x 30, your room is very large indeed. If you get the itch to upgrade, the CS 3.7, would flourish very well in your room! 

Happy Listening!

Good to see you - thosb
I discovered Spoon (2) albums back from their current offering. Yes, this thread is strong  by the grace of the contributors, experts and fans.
As your reading proves, there are many of the guys that have owned Thiel loudspeakers since the 1980's. Impressive!
Happy Listening!

Much Thanks! tomthielfor the continued insight and perspective(s) on the facts that made Thiel into the best loudspeaker company since inception. Good to read that you found a repair service for those Classe' power amps. That company has a strong following as well. Keep researching and writing.

Happy Listening!

I am always here for you - oblgnyHope you are well and enjoying Summer there in NY.Happy Listening!

Okay after all this talk of amps, i need to put in a big plug here for the power regenerators from PS Audio. I started years ago with the PPP,  then to the P5, and now am using a P10 (which i will be selling next month in order to buy the new P15). these beasts make a huge difference in the sound quality of my system,  and many people just overlook how important they are. I would rather have an amp that retails for 5 grand,  and a P10 for 5 grand,  than an amp for 10 grand.  They are an important component and affect the sound as much as the room itself.   Just in case anyone is thinking i am a PS employee,  let me assure you I am not.  I have a great menswear store in Greensboro NC and (shameless plug here),   if anyone really likes nice menswear,  they need to check us out.   www.thehubltd.com

Guys (and galls?) I could use your help in "diagnosing" my speaker problems. I have 2 sets of Thiel 3.5's and the newer set shows an acceptable measurement curve using REW and the build-in sweep measurement. My older speakers that I power with a Bryston 3B-STin a large 30x30ft room, show problematic measurements for each speaker, taken about 5 ft from each speaker, especially in the lower ranger 20-100 hz. I have links to the REW datafiles so you can examine them if you have REW, a free program. I have tentatively concluded that one woofer may need replacement but I'm curious about your opinions. Are these speakers reaching their end of life? Speaker are 12 ft apart.
Right speaker, from 4- 5 ft
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14xdQvRFk24kUBehj1WXhETCNU0vb7nV3/view?usp=sharingBoth speaker, listening position 16-18 ft
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14xdQvRFk24kUBehj1WXhETCNU0vb7nV3/view?usp=sharingLeft speaker, from 4- 5 ft
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIeddDfRzRsdXjSXPdG3HSyFsCs39kkd/view?usp=sharing