Thiel Owners


Guys-

I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!

Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
128x128jafant

prof

Thank You for sharing. Hearing problems can certainly debilitate anyone at anytime. An aural sense is a precious thing not to be taken lightly.

God's speed on your recovery. Keep us posted as your health is restored.

Post removed 
Thanks for sharing. Hope this condition will improve soon. No reason to withhold your astute observations and sharing. Certainly reminded me not to take my hearing for granted and protect them from overexposure.
Hope you are well and enjoying this Fall season.


Thanks jafant.

But...as it happens...I’m not doing terribly well, in a way pertinent to high end audio and music. And if my post count here starts to drop quite a bit, there’s a reason.

I’ve had pretty bad tinnitus for decades (and I know I’m not alone on the forum with that issue) so have made sure to not overdo sound levels when listening. Despite the ear ringing, fortunately I have really good hearing - tests more like ears 12 years younger than I am. Plus, I’ve mostly habituated to the tinnitus (can sleep through the night, doesn’t bug me listening to music, etc).

However, way back in 2001 I had a terrible bout of what is known as "hyperacusis," which is a collapsed tolerance to sound. It was truly terrible - even turning the pages of a book took on an exaggeratedly loud, irritating, sharp quality...let alone music. Basically, music listening was just gone for me. That kind of stuff really upends your life (especially as I work in sound as well). Aside from the fact everything just hurt my ears, it really tore me up to not be able to enjoy music or audio anymore. It took some years to get over it and mostly habituate, but thankfully that happened and for many years I’ve been able to enjoy high end audio/music.

Well....it’s back.

I had the misfortune of taking my son out downtown near our lakeshore on labour day and didn’t realize the air show was happening. We were essentially right on the strip in the path that the jets took as they made their way, flying very low over us, to the lake where they did their show.
It was just extraordinarily loud! Sometimes four jets in formation would fly right over us and plugging my ears did essentially nothing, every bone vibrating to the sound.

Since then my ears have been shot, and the hyperacusis (not to mention increase in tinnitus) came raging back. It makes everything painful and shrill. I had been enthralled with my new turntable and had been on a record buying binge for months just loving it. Now, the record buying has stopped cold, and I’m mostly staring at walls of useless records, and my nice Thiels sit there mostly unused :-(

I don’t need to tell anyone here how depressing that scenario is.   (And of course, apropos of my other speaker auditioning thread, any reason to buy new speakers is gone for now as well.  Couldn't attend the Toronto Audiofest because of this condition either, darn it!).

I’m going to start a therapy for the condition, which hopefully will be successful, though can take up to two years. I’m hoping to get better before then.

But I’d imagine I may not have occasion to post as much here for quite a while. (Though I probably won’t be able to help myself...it’s sort of like that "lost limb" phenomenon where you want the keep scratching the limb you lost).

BTW, I don’t mean to be totally woe-is-me. I’m actually starting to feel more optimistic that it will get better. I’ve been through this before and recovered, and I think I can actually perceive a tiny bit of progress already. So hopefully I won’t be out of the game too long.

Anyway, I took the excuse to get it off my chest, as it’s almost the only thing on my mind these days. Thanks. :)


I am very surprised they you can't really find any commercially available coax drivers that are really that good.  There are a few available but they have terrible frequency response and first order question is impossible because of their poor performance.


"It is kind of a tragedy that the 2.7/3.7 coax isn't being produced any more."


I share that sentiment!
prof
Nice post and over view on the CS 2.7, 3.7 and CS6 models.  Hope you are well and enjoying this Fall season.  Happy Listening!
andy2
prof gives a very nice over view of the CS 2.7. During my auditioning sessions I found it this model to act as a slightly scaled down version of the CS 3.7 loudspeaker for those that did not have a larger listening space. Both models do feature Jim's last design-the wavy driver concept as above. The curved plywood walls are beautiful as well. 
To address the 2.7 vs. the CS 2.4, I venture to report that the CS 2.7 has a little more weight authority in the Bass department. Wavy driver vs. passive radiator. Both feature that wonderful Thiel house sound that we all know and love (richest timbre, soundstage and micro details in the music).  Hope this information has been helpful to you.

Happy Listening!
rojacob

Thank You for the listing of your gear and musical preferences. I am a serious Jazz Hound myself. We have much in common. I believe that you will find this thread a great read from the beginning up until now.
Yes, sound reproduction has increased incredibly since I started my Audio journey back in the 1980's.

Happy Listening!
jserio

Welcome! Glad that you found us here. I look forward in reading more about you and your system.  Happy Listening!
Jafant...

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking here for a while and in fact, found out about the CS2.4 cap upgrade here, so thanks to the contributors for that. The 2.4s replaced my CS2.0s that I originally acquired in 1990. I replaced the drivers in those twice, but seeing that drivers for these were no longer available, decided to get the 2.4s, and I'm very happy I did. The cap upgrade and outriggers from Rob GIllum were icing on the cake.

The CS2.4s are the center of two interlinked systems: an 'analog' system that includes a McIntosh C26 and (2) McIntosh MC 240s which I originally purchased in 1969 (and use a 80w mono amps), and a 'digital' system (mostly for theater use) built around a Classé preamp/processor (SSP800) and Classé amplifier (CA5300). Two Thiel PowerPlane 1.2s and an SCS center channel make up the rest of the theater system, though I confess I'm on the lookout for a nice MCS.

There are a belt and direct drive turntable connected to the 'analog' system, and a CD, BluRay & laserdisc(!) player connected to 'digital' system, though I can also play the turntables through the 'digital' system. It's complicated, but what good is a hobby if it isn't expensive and take up a lot of time?

My musical taste is mostly classical music from the 18th to 20th century, especially piano and chamber music, though I also love orchestral works from Mozart to Mahler and beyond. I like serious jazz from Louis Armstrong to the Art Ensemble of Chicago, especially Coltrane, Dolphy, Davis and many others.

When I started this hobby in the 1960s, I was into what was called 'HiFi'. I never really made the transition to the 'high end', though I certainly appreciate what it has meant to sound reproduction over the last 30 years.

It is kind of a tragedy that the 2.7/3.7 coax isn't being produced any more.  I've thought about it and it seems the theoretical ideal would be if Vandersteen would buy the Thiel name and produce a few models.  Since it's a first order company as well the expertise would be there and the different house sound would maybe take them out of direct competition with each other.  I know the Tyler Acoustics guy is in KY.  He's a box builder, he could probably replicate any of the older Thiel boxes.  Not sure about the 2.7/3.7.  I'm just dreaming.
dancastagna,

I'm a bit unclear about your post.  Do you mean you already have the 3.7s and 2.7s, and yet are contemplating buying yet another pair of 2.7s...or the CS6?   Do you mean you are running your current 2.7s with solid state and want to try Thiels with tubes, but in another system?

I've had the CS6 and the 2.7s (and 3.7s) so here is my perspective:

The CS6s are the larger speaker, and sound it.  They go deeper and are more weighty in the bass than the 2.7s and even the 3.7s.  And the bass is amazing on the CS6s - no other speaker had such weighty, dense yet controlled bass in my room, and only the 2.7s and 3.7s compared (the 3.7s being the most tonally controlled in the bass, but a bit lighter and less dense/punchy in the bass than my memory of the CS6).

The CS6 cast a very big and really well focused soundstage, with that particular image density that stuck in my mind for many years after, and it's one reason why I went back to Thiel.  

Though I'd say the 3.7s cast an even more impressive soundstage, and the 2.7s somewhat comparable to the CS6.   In terms of bass, the "center of gravity" moves upward somewhat in the 2.7 vs the CS6, similar to how it does compared to the 3.7s - more about mid-bass punch than low bass slam.

When certain orchestral climaxes occurred, or in songs with great bass dynamics, the CS6 could produce that "rolling bass under your feet" sensation more than the 2.7s can.

Tonally, the CS6s were ravishing on my CJ 140W/side tube amps, with excellent bass control.

My one real caveat with the CS6s is, as I've mentioned before in this thread, in ultimate terms they sounded a tad reductive, instruments sometimes not quite as big/full/rich sounding as can be had through other speakers. It would play out especially when, say, sax or oboe would play in to the higher registers.  Or far-mic'd instruments in an orchestra could be a bit more tiny and thin sounding.   

It sometimes felt I could perceive a slight suck-out in upper midrange, especially one that altered slightly with listening position, and it seems this was mentioned in John Atkinson's review and measurements as well, in Stereophile.

What I hear with the last coax design in the 3.7s/2.7s is a more refined midrange in terms of sheer coherency and richness.  I don't get any of that reductive quality and they sound perfectly coherent and even top to bottom. 

Still, if we are talking comparison of the 2.7 with the CS6, there are certainly things to be said in favour of the CS6.  The scale, depth and power of the sound for instance.  

If you already have the 2.7s and want more Thiel...it seems to me the CS6 could be a nice adventure to try something a little different.



Dan, I don't have a buy recommendation, but I might add some perspective. The 2.7 is the newest design and shares the wavy plate coax with the 3.7 - which is Jim's world-class, swan-song breakthrough. A company could be built on that driver. That said, the 2.7 will move perhaps half the air of the 6 (anyone could do the math, I have not. Calculate comparative driver areas including the passive radiators). The 2.7 also shares the curved plywood walls of the 3.7.  It operates closer to the 3 more-so than previous model 2s.

The CS6 is larger and fills a larger space. I was told at the factory that Jim considered the 6 a better speaker in some ways than the 3.7. Thiel discontinued it for a leaner product line as they struggled to contain costs. The CS6 has fewer electrolytic caps and none in the signal path, and is on our upgrade radar before the 3.7 or 2.7. Rob Gillum would know if the particular serial numbers are the original 6 or the 6.1, and what changes were made. (And you could tell us those details.)

Happy Hunting.
Has anyone compared between these two?  What would be the difference in sound between the CS2.4 and CS2.7?  They seem to have similar bass driver, but the mid and tweeter are completely different.
I loved hearing more detail on specifics of upgrades Tom and others? have been working on, very interesting, made me want to pull off one the passive radiators my self and have a look.

Wow Prof those 2.7's in birds eye maple are a fantastic deal,  I have a question. what others thought of cs6 and where they may differ from the 2.7 & 3.7 that I have and plan to keep forever. I found a pair on ebay link is below. or am I better off grabbing the 2.7 and run them with tube gear which will be different than how I have my existing 2.7 set up.

Thank you for your input.  Dan

https://www.ebay.com/itm/THIEL-CS6-Coherent-Source-3-Way-Speaker-in-Birds-Eye-Maple-Local-Pickup-Onl...

prof
Nice catch. I would like to see oblgny score these as he is in NY.

Happy Listening!

I see a pair of Thiel 2.7s in gorgeous birds-eye maple, for sale on ebay right now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232972524856

What an absolute bargain for a speaker that beautiful, and of that quality.
As a 2.7 owner I can't recommend these beauties highly enough! 



For Thiels I would try a Kinki Studio EX-M1 or the new monos that they are about to release. They are neutral sounding have a good grip of the drivers. Users of Kinki rate them in same region as Pass, Nagra and Goldmund.I have a set of Mirage M7Si. On the specs an average easy speaker. But no - they demand a high quality amp. My budget is not for the mentioned amps. I have tried some of them but the Kinky did is at least as good. Happy listening. Thiel is absolutely value for money. Rgs
rojacob

Welcome! I am glad that you found us here. Thank You for the hot tip on replacing cap(s) in the CS 2.4 loudspeaker.  Tell us more about your system and musical genre tastes. I look forward in reading more about you and your system.  

Happy Listening!
When people asked Vandersteen that his speakers being
time phase coherent, what should the listeners expect
from his speakers, is there any aspect of his speakers
that should be special? What he said surprised me.
He said that actually the listeners should not hear anything
special at all. He added but over the long term,
the listeners will appreciate that the sound is completely
natural and life like sounding.

jon,

I agree. And that’s something I’ve been on about often in this thread. My Thiel speakers get out of the way of the sound, from top to bottom, to a degree no other speaker I’ve owned could manage. There’s just an evenness and control that leaves such confidence - no bloating here and there, no drivers sticking out sonically, just perfectly cohesive sound.

And I’m totally with you on the notion of price. As speaker prices ran ever further away in to fantasy land, Thiel kept firmly grounded in trying to produce as much great engineering for as reasonable a price as possible. I’ve always deeply respected them for that.

Andy,

Ditto on your observations about the linearity of the Thiels in terms of positioning in a room. I found the Thiels to be the easiest to position for great sound of any speakers I’ve owned. They just seem to maintain their balance so well. I think the control and lack of bumped up bloat in the bass region helps a lot.

It's not necessarily that the Thiels are the "best at everything" sonically.  I can think of a few other speakers that have aspects of their presentation I like as much or more.   But rather that they are so good in every parameter, and so cohesive, that nothing sticks out and it's easy to just hear the music and musicians, rather than the speakers.


To me the Thiel sound is the sound that makes me forget about the sound.

That's how I felt about the CS2.4. I remember back
when the CS2.4 came out, there were a lot of reviews
on the speakers (always a good sign for a component),
and every review there was always some reference
to it being a bit on the "bright" side.
I just don't understand where it came from.
If anything, I thought the CS2.4 in my system
may be a touch warm sounding on certain materials.

I remember I used to have a pair of Spendor S8 which
were known for their musical and warm sounding. But
as soon as I pull the speakers just a bit further from
the wall, the sound balance just became completely off.
The sound became lean and bright.

The CS2.4 on the other hands is very linear in term of
its position. As I move them further from the wall,
the sound balance changes very linearly and very predictable.
To me the Thiel sound is the sound that makes me forget about the sound.  There's nothing about it that bothers me.  I don't understand why.  Maybe it's because of the first order phase correct crossover.  There definitely aren't any frequency response problems that bother me.  Everything I've had in the past had problems that bothered me.  Peaky tweeters, flabby bass, overly lean bass.  Other, difficult to describe things as well.  Whatever they were caused by I don't have any of it with the Thiels.  I can sit back and relax.  

The type of company it was definitely appeals to my personality as well.  I'm not a fan of conspicuous consumption or the feeling that I have something special that hardly anybody else can afford.  
andy2

I just replaced the caps in my recently purchased used CS2.4s (sn 1030 & 1031) with the kit sold by Rob Gillum. beetlemania's note about removing the passive radiator is a good one and I would add that I was surprised at how long the screws were. They also require a hex wrench. Putting the passive radiator back in was easier than I thought but the whole process of removing and reinstalling them benefitted from the use of a small drill. When reinstalling, the drill helped in getting the screw to 'grip' the frame of the passive radiator more easily, drawing it to the cabinet as it tightened. I'm right-handed so I held the passive radiator with my left hand while using the drill on the screw at the top of the radiator. The speaker lay prone on a workbench and once the first screw is in, the rest were easy.
prof

Yes, it is the entire package indeed.  Hope you are enjoying the Fall season.  Happy Listening!
marqmike

Very interesting development.  Perhaps Mr. Rob Gillum could shine a light on this subject.  Feel free to send him an email, at the very least, he his quite responsive via phone as well.  Keep me posted should you decide to reach out and touch him.    Happy Listening!
beetlemania

Thank You for the update. Looking forward to a working XO model.
Hope you are having fun during this research process. It is going to pay-off big time.  Happy Listening!

......I think many of us love our Thiel speakers as that entire package, not just the sound but what the speakers represent in terms of their goal and the engineering talent they represent. 



Prof, your statement is the best summarization of my thinking about Thiel. For this reason I spent a lot of time to find my 3.6s in perfect condition and with the unique aim to keep them forever, a true artwork to me.



My early plans were influenced by some other threads here regarding aftermarket caps and, more substantially, by Tom Thiel's comments here. But other than, maybe the Mills MRAs, all of the current plans and component choices are from the mind of Tom.

I’m getting close to building the new boards. These will include Clarity CSAs replacing all extant caps, including eletrolytics. Tom has a custom voltage for some of these to save space and expense. My coax feed caps will include Multicap RTX bypass at about 1% of main cap capacitance. Resistors will be the Mills; I’m already running these and you can read my report in this thread maybe May, 2018. My XOs were sourced in China and the coils are suspect, so these will be replaced, probably foil in the coax feed. PCB will be replaced with point to point on masonite. Tom has written other details just a few days ago regarding his idea to provide cooling for resistors.
beetlemania,
It will be interesting to see what you plan to come up with.  Look forward to it.
It was just one owner of brand new 2.4's. And he had not nor had anyone replace anything on them.
Mike
@andy2 Other than the Clarity SAs in the coax feed, there is reason to think your Lexington XOs are superior to later iterations that were sourced from China. That said, you might still consider upgrading the components if not doing a full rebuild such as I will be doing soon. Stay tuned.
I think many of us love our Thiel speakers as that entire package, not just the sound but what the speakers represent in terms of their goal and the engineering talent they represent.

Well said prof (maybe prof is a real professor :-)

There is another manufacturer that I admire although for a different reason.  Sonus Faber's sound is probably completely opposite of Thiel but their design has the same vision as Thiel engineering.  Their speakers to me are sculpture first then engineering (like Italian cars).  I probably will never own one but I always enjoy looking at them.
tomthiel

Thank You for this piece of information regarding the numbering sequence of Thiel's loudspeakers.  No doubt that Rob is your Man for such historical and valuable insight.  Happy Listening!
andy2,

I think I get where you are coming from.

When you really look in to what Jim Thiel was doing - the clarity of his design goal, and then the obvious challenges it presented, and then the absolutely clever way he continually improved the design, carving away at the liabilities inherent in trying do make first order T/P coherent speakers, (and not only that - really great engineering all around, including the bass drivers/motors etc) it really adds up to a unique and compelling package.

Though I researched and auditioned many other speakers, and of course other speaker manufacturers are trying to up their own game as well, very few presented the same sense of clarity of vision and goal, to reach a place most manufacturers abandoned, which such a singular engineering talent at the helm.

I think many of us love our Thiel speakers as that entire package, not just the sound but what the speakers represent in terms of their goal and the engineering talent they represent. 
jay - I suppose folks know that Thiel, with its nuts and bolts x no bullshit approach, started every model with serial number 1, which was mated with number 2 ,  all matched pairs were odd-low.

We kept the design prototypes. My 2.2s are -3 / -4 (final, pre-production.) Early + numbers went to dealers for display. Usually reviewers got numbers in the 100s after the display and pre-buy pipeline was somewhat satisfied. The products were quite thoroughly engineered and required no changes except when production drivers drifted or shifted parameters for some reason, such as different surround, etc. viscosity etc. . . stuff happens. Eventually there might be some refinements which warranted the x.x.1 sub model changes we addressed earlier.

Usually the second generation of a product was called the x.2. But one exception was the CS6, which in the early days of Thiel in-house drivers, received some upgrades to the midrange driver and consequent changes to the crossover, and was called the CS6.1.  I estimate the date around late '96 and don't know the serial number of the change. Rob would probably know. I'm gradually collecting such information. 
marqmike

Good to see you again.  Do you know the number of owners of your CS 2.4 prior to purchase- I wonder if one of the previous owners swapped the plates or something else...

Happy Listening!
andy2

Right On! as prof can attest, one is going to have to spend more, much more, to better these modern Thiel loudspeakers.  Good to read that you are enjoying your 2.4 loudspeakers. I knew that you would enjoy them.

Happy Listening!
On my 2.4's there is no serial numbers. Could have been wiped off? Or maybe someone put a new plate on there, but not from what I understand with the previous owner.
I do not believe that I have seen SN that low for CS 2.4- special speakers indeed.

I think it may become a future classic.  It is a really unique design.  I don't know what others are thinking but there are really nothing about the new speaker designs that interest me.  Maybe I would like to listen to some of the Vandersteen's some day but others than that, there are not too much out there that catches my attention.  A few years ago, Absolute Sound named a pair of speakers (I'd rather not reveal the name) that costs about $100K as the best speakers in the world.  But other than the all aluminum cabinets, the design is more or less a square box with slightly rounded edges to improve diffraction.  It uses high order filters and the drivers although were specifically designed in house, I am sure I could obtain similar quality drivers either from Scan Speak, Seas or Accuton.  I am a bit disappointed in general in most speaker manufacturers.  Most of them are just too derivative.
andy2
Thank You for listing your serial numbers. I do not believe that I have seen SN that low for CS 2.4- special speakers indeed.  Happy Listening!
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the info.  I am glad the XO's in mine are home made. :-)
andy - your 2.4s are Lexington made with point to point wiring and 4-9s coils and domestic / european caps. I would consider them superior to later 2.4s with Chinese-made crossovers. I don't know the changeover date, but yours are Lex-made.