oblgny - I reside in Lake Grove, N. Y. Very close to Stony Brook University. Again, free for pickup only.
My travels don't take me to Long Island. Thanks anyhow.
My travels don't take me to Long Island. Thanks anyhow.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,533 responses Add your response
31 - regarding your CS5 vs 7.2 query: my considerations would be more strategic than any one aspect of performance. That performance aspect is the type of bass alignment where the CS5 is sealed and therefore produces more coherent bass as it rolls off the bottom end. However, both products go deeper than most program material, plus the ear is least sensitive to time/phase in the bass, so I would attribute minor significance to that aspect. (Albeit, I personally like the CS5 bass, which isn't the point.) On to amplifiers: the deep bass of the CS5 drops well below 2 ohms and therefore requires significant and specialized amplification to drive it well. If I had a pair of 5s, I would split the bass from the upper frequencies for easier amplification. Repairability: the CS5 lower drivers were Kevlar by ? (I may remember some day.) I don't know their availability or whether Rob at Coherent Source Service can rebuild them. Check on that. But, those were 1988 specialty drivers from a model that sold less than a thousand pair. So caution is advised. The tweeter is Thiel and also used in the 2.2 and 3.6, so it's available. Note that the 5 is a 5-way, so the integration of the drivers yields a very smooth frequency response and reduces excursions required of other Thiel products with fewer drivers. The CS7.2 uses Thiel drivers and I believe Rob can repair those. He says there are virtually no problems with the 7.2. As a general observation, Thiel approached product design as a process of incremental improvement. Each design stood on the shoulders of everything that proceeded it. I think of the 7.2 as a fully modern, realized design whereas the 5 as an evolutionary step. As I've mentioned before, I find significant flaws in the 5's use of bucket brigade delay for the 2 midrange drivers. That's a lot of circuitry for the signal to navigate. FYI: I have heard the CS5s more than the 7.2 and have heard them both perform gloriously with the Krell FPB-600. Reviews suggest that any amp short of that or similar full-out muscle is likely to whimp-out under the CS5 demands. All that aside, if you are inclined toward collecting icons, the CS5 is unique in Thiel's history. Its development was spurred by demand, especially from Japan, for Jim's ultimate statement. In fact I judge that he pulled some significant punches; it could have been more ultimate, even at that time, had he allowed a budget of $15 to $20K rather than the under $10K at the top of his psychic tolerance. Now, a flight of fancy. In my dreams I would remake the CS5 to a higher standard. An easy fix is a cabinet resonance or two. Another fix is to break out the bass from the upper drivers for separate amplification. Now we're in no-problem performance land. Furthermore, let's upgrade passive parts for further significant improvement. Then the serious business - reshape the cast marble baffle for physically proper driver placement rather than electronic compensation. I remember the first 100 pairs were Brazilian Rosewood from my private stash - considered the finest cabinet wood in the world. I am unaware of any other fully 5-way coherent source transducer out there. Such an undertaking would be a collector's edition re-imagined re-issue of the iconic and obscure CS5 from 30 years past. It would fly. |
beetle - good advice. Regarding your 2.4SEs, the evidence suggests that the original boards made in Lexington were Masonite PtPoint. Perhaps after Jim's death (2009) Lexington changed to PCBs with the same traditional parts. (I don't know when that change happened, but ERSE had those PCBs for sourcing parts before China. Many folks say the PCB per se does not reduce sound quality. Your SEs came from after XOs were sourced from FST in China with CYC parts, including some downgrades from Propylene to Polyester (T). It seems that those parts were supposed to be clones of the extant parts, but sources say the verification is weak or missing. We are assuming the unverified Chinese parts are of lesser quality. Despite the unknown parts quality, including wire alloy, the coils are not tightly wound, which results in squirm losses. Regarding sandcast resistors, you have heard and I support upgrading to Mills. However, I know that the Lex sandcasts were ERSE which we know to be best of form. But resistors are great bang for buck, so why not upgrade while you're in there. |
@tomthiel Interesting that there are 3 iterations of the
CS2.4 XO. It appears that, other than the Clarity SAs on the coax feeds, my SE
version has the lowest parts quality of the 3! I suppose the sandcast resistors
are equivalent for each iteration.
@holco, unless you opt for a full Tom Thiel-style XO rebuild, which is my plan, I wouldn’t change much else on your boards other than the resistors. Your woofer board has better caps and coils than my FST-sourced boards. I would replace the resistors with Mills MRA and call it a day.
On the coax board, I would replace those resistors as well, maybe try to figure out a way for them to breathe for better cooling under those big Jantzen caps (perhaps a thin aluminum bar underneath them to draw heat to the sides?). It is highly desirable to replace those 100 uF electrolytics with MPT-type (Erse PulseX is a good option that won’t break the bank) but it will be really tough to fit those on your PCB. I suppose you could just replace those with fresh electrolytics of similar size. The only other thing I might consider is adding a high quality bypass to the 43 uF subfeed. The cap itself is labelled as MPT type (might be a Solen?), so already good quality. But you might try a ~1% bypass. I am going to use a 0.33 uF REL Multicap bypass with that cap (planned as a Clarity CSA 250 V). Cornell-Dubilier 0.1 uF is also worth considering for a bypass. You might even experiment with 1% bypasses on your Jantzens if you’re really adventuresome. |
You guys have been busy while I've been away . . . holco - further investigation has shown that the OX seems to have 3 types. Lex 1 is PtP on Masonite with Solen (etc.) and first-rate ERSE / Jantzen coils. Lex 2 has same high quality components on PCBs. That seems to be what you have. Those coils are good and they match your boards. Don't swap them for the schematic you posted because those values were for masonite. You can physically measure your coils with an impedance meter if changing coils. But if you change gauge, then the DC resistance also changes which must be compensated in the resistor values. Since you have good coils, I suggest the easiest way out for now is to stick with them. Go with the Mills resistors. Sonic Craft has New Old Stock Mills, which is best. As beetle said, we're working on custom values, etc. and hope to have news to report by end of 2018. Keep us posted. |
Read the reviews and make your conclusion, Bryston isn't the only one that can manage the power hungry Thiel's and make them sing ;-) Audio-GD Master 3 power amp, Audio-GD Master 10 is the Master 3 with an integrated preamp. Spec's, 250W @ 8ohm / 500W @ 4ohm / 1000W @2ohm http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-32015/Master-32015EN_Specs.htm Reviews, https://6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan2/1.html https://headmania.org/2017/07/16/audio-gd-master-10-speaker-amplifier-review/ http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master10en.htm |
With all the Bryston love, I'm sure a tube-head's opinion isn't welcome.But.... For my own personal taste, I had the Bryston 4BST for a number of years just to be able to test on a variety of speakers - an amp I could always throw in that would drive anything, even though I mostly used tube amps. Never could keep it in the loop too long. I sooo much preferred CJ tube amps on my speakers, including the Thiel CS6. My pal is going through one of his "I'm fed up with the hassle of tubes" phases. Replaced his tube amps with a big new Bryston. All vinyl system. He's very happy with the sound. Me...I definitely miss what to me was the more natural, organic presentation he had before. But, that's personal taste for you. |
I picked my bryston 3b st to drive my 3.5 and with a impedance of 5, and worked out really well. For my 3.7 I have decided on the 7b St monoblocks that I will run in parallel bridged mode, resulting in 500 Watts at 3 ohm and all the current that can could be needed. I also looked at the 14bsst but was told that it could not be converted to parallel mode so the 7b St were the last ones that could be switched parallel or serial. |
rosami, while there has been some incremental improvement (IMHO more hype than substance) over the years in speaker design, I still think the real value is with some of the older stuff. Some of the great designers, like Jim Thiel, John Dunlavy, Peter Walker, etc., have past, and there hasn't been a stampede of newer one's jumping to take their unique places. If you like Thiel's you might want to check out offerings from Duntech, Green Mountain, and Vandersteen. I suspect the next generation of speaker design on the horizon might be a bit different with more internal DSP functions. Time will tell. |
There’s been a lot of recent talk about using Bryston amps with Thiel’s here recently. I am not the only one who has touched upon this more than once before, but I guess for some slogging through all the posts on this thread might be daunting. There was a time with the earlier Thiel’s that Bryston was as easy recommendation to make. A company with a long tradition of well made products, with one of the best warranties in the business, respected by both audiophiles and pros alike. Heck, the 3B is still one of my favorites. But... the more recent Thiel’s with sub 4 Ohm impedances aren’t quite as good a match. If one is considering purchasing Bryston amplification for any of the sub 4 Ohm Thiels it behooves you to read the following: https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-4b-power-amplifier-measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-3b-st-power-amplifier-measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-sstsup2sup-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements We can see that only the biggest 7b mono’s really have a proper 2 Ohm power delivery window to deal with the more recent Thiel’s. Even then it 690 Watts into 2 ohms is equivalent to a 172.5 Watt amp that could truly double down. With the latest Thiel’s impedance load one would be paying for 400 or so of unused Watts per channel. |
unsound... You were the very first member to relate the merits of the 3.5’s to me and once again I have learned more. I mis-spake (new word!) about sensitivity/efficiency and your input cleared that up. Much appreciated. I had lived with a pair of Klipsch Epic CF-3’s for a period far longer than I have with any Thiels. (Entirely Audiogon’s fault, mind you.) Those old Klipsch had a sensitivity of 101db, capable of being driven with a tabletop radio but - and oy vey! - those compression horn loaded tweeters really got to me after a while. At one point, just before I removed the drivers and turned the cabinets into bookcases, I had actually stuffed a pair of white crew socks into the horns to eradicate the brittle quality. Solely for aesthetic reasons shortly thereafter I used some foam. Neither attempt resulted in resolution to the perceived problem so...bookcases. Don’t ask. I am less of a carpenter than I am a technically proficient “audiot”, but it struck me as a good idea at the time. Anyway...it might be misconstrued by some followers of this thread that I didn’t like the 3.6’s. They were typically excellent Thiels - unbelievably “true” sounding from top to bottom. It was only at my very conservative listening levels that they didn’t, couldn’t (?) deliver that natural, organic bass. Pushed a little beyond my norm they were as wonderful as the 3.5’s. Thiel makes ANYTHING sound good, period. I’ve thrown just about everything at the Thiels I’ve owned - class a, class a/b, class d, monoblocks, tubed and passive preamps, and they all benefitted from Thiel. If I didn’t discover Thiel from this site I would probably still have that old Pioneer pushing them Klipsch... |
(Continued - sorry) are real or just the normal sales talk. Have speakers really improved that much in the last 20 years and is it maybe worth checking out other brands now that my 3.6s need work ? Are there any objective Thiel owners among the Thielophiliacs that have done serious unbiased listening to other newer brands and can provide thoughts on PRAT, imaging, coherence, etc. of other brands vs. our beloved Thiels? Thanks. |
Fellow Thielophiles, I’m torn on my next step! My 21 year old CS 3.6s need a tweeter rebuild (I’ve had to do this at 7-year intervals and it’s that time again). I’m not sure if the speakers also may have a problem with the crossovers — they’re sounding raspy and pretty nasty lately. Issue is I’ve only had Thiels (03a and then my current 3.6s) for the last 33 years and haven’t done any serious listening to other speakers! ! Now that my 3.6s need work - and given possibly having to do significant work if crossovers need attention - and only CSS still servicing them, I’ve actually been thinking about listening to some other speakers (sorry guys!). I’m curious if the “improvements” that the dealers, that Ive recently spoken to, say have occurred in the last 20+ years |
oblgny as always, good to see you my friend. With all of this talk about the 3.5 model, I knew that you would eventually chime in. Hope you are well and your situation is improving. You and Tom really knows this loudspeaker inside and out. Keep us posted should you choose to purchase from High Performance Stereo. Happy Listening! |
thielrules Nice score! Good to read that you guys are keep Mr. Rob Gillum in business. I have heard the Bryston 3B-ST a few times and do not underestimate its presence. It is a real sleeper of a power amp. Stepping up to the SST or SST2 will reward the listener even more. Keep us posted as you massage these loudspeakers into your room, system. Happy Listening! |
Oblgny, efficiency is not necessarily the same as sensitivity, and 2.87 Volts is not necessarily the same as 1 Watt. The 3.5’s depending on vintage were rated as 88-89 dB @ 2.87 V. in to 8 Ohms. That does not account for for the 4 Ohm nominal/minimum impedance rating (though not dropping below 5 Ohms in independent testing ). Suffice to say one could round down to a 85-86 dB sensitivity into actual load. The same holds true for the 3.7’s, only more so as the impedance drops even further. If you consider the actual impedance load the more relevant sensitivity drops accordingly. This is why the power levels into lower impedances need to increase as much as they do. |
thielrules.... I see that the 3.7’s have an efficiency rating of 90db whereas the 3.5 is 88db. Does the efficiency difference offer a better low-level listening experience with the 3.7? I’ve been able only to move up the food chain to the 3.6 which, in my humble opinion, did not offer the range at low listening levels although it did typically Thiel stuff when I went out of my comfort zone. Congrats on grabbing that pair! |
Hi guys (and gals) I'm happy to announce that I'm now the proud owner of a new set 3.7 nos. It was the last set that Rob Gilliam had and I'm breaking them in with about 50 hours on them. I have to take back my earlier opinion stating that the 3.5 are good enough for low volume listening. The 3.7 are clearly a major step forward in all areas of listening experience even driving them with my modest amp a Bryston 3b st. I can't wait for a set of 7b St to arrive so I can provide the current that these speakers deserve. |
High Performance Stereo has had a pair of CS3.5 with EQ listed on its site forever and a day - $1000 with availability in New York or “along the I95 corridor.” I have never conducted business with them in the past; reluctant because they rarely tender any useful information regarding their wares, and the accompanying photos - when they post photos - are pretty poor. Has anyone here ever had a transaction with them? Without being able to inspect them - especially the mids - I thinks they be way high at $1000. I may tender a lowball offer of $500 simply due to the fact that they’ve been listed for so long... PS: I have made this offer to anyone here before - if you live within a reasonable distance of my zip 11755, I have a complete pair of 3.5 innards - woofers, tweeters, mids, crossovers, and speaker emblems. The mids are kaput - the other drivers worked fine. FREE - but only if you pick ‘em up. I gave away the EQ to a fellow member here earlier this year. And a happy Thanksgiving to all |
Thanks again beetlemania Hope Tom Thiel can also shed some light on the bass coil. Br, Mario |
tomthiel - Larry Staples rings a bell. If he is on this thread then let me say "Hello, Larry" as well. As to it being a forming experience it was. I bought the 3.5's as much on that Kentucky experience as the dealer's showroom, since he had pulled the speakers at the time I stumbled across them. I have also liked Spica's and Vandersteins and so I guess my ears were latently attuned to phase coherence. At least I believe the lack of same messes up some speakers that should sound better than they do. Jafant - Glad you enjoyed the story. I've got a few more audio stories to tell as well, but this is not the thread for those. |
@holco Your PCBs look a bit different than mine in that you have different brand caps. Mine are CYCs other than the Clarity SAs in the coax feed; yours might be Solen? Regardless, your cap quality looks superior to mine other than those Claritys. My CYCs are MKTs whereas your caps are labelled as MPTs. Also, the coils appear to be higher quality in that they are more tightly wound. Finally, the board itself doesn’t appear to have any labels. Here is the backstory on the coils. When I upgraded my resistors, I noticed the PCB had the parts’ values printed on the boards. I wrote to Tom Thiel: I forgot to mention an interesting artifact I noticed when I replaced the resistors yesterday. The PCBs have all values labeled. On the woofer board, instead of inductor values 0.72, 0.3 and 0.06 mH per schematic and layout, it has 0.65, 0.22, and 0.06. On the coax board, instead of 6 and 0.15, it has 5.78 and 0.13 Tom investigated this and discovered the PCBs were sourced from FST whereas Thiel traditionally made everything in house using point-to-point. Apparently, the modified values are to compensate for the PCB environment. But maybe it’s even more complicated given that you have a different generation PCB than me? My SEs are among the last built. The seller claimed they were built in 2012. I’m guessing your 2.4s are older. Perhaps Tom can add his thoughts about your coil values. My rebuild will be point-to-point on Masonite and I’m going to use the coil values as indicated on the layout and schematic (I plan to build completely new boards other than I will reuse the MRA-12s). If you are keeping your PCB, you might need to use the modified coil values if upgrading. |
Thanks Tom & Beetlemania :-) For sure it's the PCB version, resistors are equal but there are no marks on the coil's, do you guy's know the value of the changed 0,72mH coil on the PCB version? I wil also look for the other parts that you reported. Can't find a Mills 4ohm resistor in Europe that's why I changed them to a parallel 4R7 and 27R resistor with a total result of 4R003 See photo, https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16063392/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20181101-192450.jpg |
@holco Regarding coils, as Tom noted, you need to verify whether your boards are point-to-point on masonite (made in Lexington) or PCB (made in China by FST). The coils values are slightly different for the latter to account for subtle changes in that environment. The layout you have is for the PTP and the PCB values are somewhat different. I recommend upgrading all resistors to Mills MRA including that 16 ohm. Not sure why you have the one in parallel. Is it becuase you can’t find the correct value? Sonic Craft has all the correct 2.4 values. But note that the “Mills” are older and “Vishay Mills” are newer after Vishay bought out Mills. You’ll have to mix and match the old and new but that is of no issue. That 43 uF cap is a subfeed and deserves attention. That is a tough value to get in a quality cap. You can get that value in ERSE Pulse (Tom had this option on his short list), or run a parallel (eg 10 + 33) higher quality. Tom has a custom Clarity CSA for that cap, not sure whether/when that might become availability. Note that you can go with a lower voltage for that one as it is downstream of that 16 ohm resistor. You might also replace those big 100 uF electrolytics with ERSE Pulse. Tom is getting a custom low voltage Clarity to replace those but, again, unsure of its availability. ERSE could also be a decent option for the woofer caps (33 and 56 uF). |
holco - good judgements, upgrading the signal paths. Coupla comments. Depending on your serial number and if it is Lexington-made and whether or not it is on masonite or a PCB, the .72mH woofer coil may not be the correct value. Details would help evaluate those particulars. Likewise, if it is Lex-made, the coil will look very tight and well-wound. If so, that is an ERSE coil which, in my opinion, will not be improved by the Jantzen, unless the J is foil. On the coax board, you are ignoring the parallel feed in the first position. I suggest investigating the 43uF cap and its 16ohm series resistor. At minimum replace that 16ohm with MRA-12s. Beetlemania might have comments on the other resistors. |
