Thiel Owners

From Jim Thiel in Soundstage review of 2.4SE
http://www.soundstageultra.com/equipment/thiel_cs24se.htm


How were the improvements measured? Jim Thiel again: "The improved resolution is not the kind of thing that shows up well in measurements; the magnitude of the difference between the CS2.4 and the CS2.4SE is more easily heard than discerned from graphs. The new capacitors allow more nuance, air, detail, and decay to be reproduced by the coaxial drive unit. This was especially evident to us when listening to recordings that contained realistic reverberation, as well as recordings where the instruments were not processed heavily."

Great that there are subjective improvements noted with the upgrade. Can we agree on objective measurements that would capture such an audible improvements and continue the Thiel tradition of both objective and subjective substantiation of improvements?

Holco - thank you for the report.
Regarding leakage - ideally you want none, but practically a small woofer enclosure leak doesn't do much. Are both channels the same? Of serious concern is if the woofer enclosure leaks into the midrange sub-enclosure. Push both the woofer and passive and see if the midrange moves. If so, troubleshoot.

Regarding foil coils. I await your comments on that change. News from the research front: foil alloy is considerably purer than wire alloy. As I've mentioned, Thiel used 6-9s ultra aerospace wire from 1978 onward. By 1995 that wire was no longer available and we used 4-9s specified as C10100plus. That seems to be the best wire currently in use, except for specialty boutique producers such as Cardas. I have learned that ERSE, Jantzen and other high-end suppliers now top out at 3-9s C11000 @99.9% with higher oxygen allowances. Jantzen specifically disclaims audible benefits beyond this C11000 grade, etc. etc.
My personal experience is to the contrary, having spent the summer of '78 comparing wire. Some auditory brains hear the difference. I am currently exploring a solution strategy.

Beetle - your FST coils and hookup wire meet the C11000 spec. But your FST coil winding was less than best. I await your experience with Cardas hookup wire.

Audio inductor foil meets better than C10100. It is as good as the original ITT 6-9s aerospace wire that I secured in 1978. So the generally accepted higher performance of foil coils might be attributable to some combination of  foil skin effect reduction, tighter wrap and purity of alloy.

Lotta mystery.

what strikes me is that if you press the passive woofer the active woofer (of course) comes out but then almost immediately it will slowly return to its neutral position, so there is some air leakage, is that intentionally also the intention or do I have to look for the leak?

beetlemania,

There are still questions about the Wax coils values, my LCR meter indicates that they are too high in value, they are sent to Jantzen and according to them they are within the specs, next week I get them back and can tell more.

For the time being they have not been in the woofer crossovers yet.     

Regarding the Jantzen foil coils on the coax board (which were part of the last total upgrade), I can not say anything specifically about what only the foil coils do in the whole picture, but the entire upgrade gives a significant improvement in SQ!! the key points that I hear are even more air than before, now it is as if the space embraces you and takes you to the room where the music actually plays out, also the width of the spatial image is now more outside the speakers and also more forward , the naturalness is also very impressive !!

All in all, I was already very happy with the CS2.4 but after the upgrades I now have speakers that I never thought I could own :-)

@jafant I did try the Bryston cubed series with my 2.4's and wasn't pleased with how the played together.  The build quality was superb on that amp...it really was like audio jewelry if you will.  But in my room I needed to warm up the Thiels and fill out the midrange and lower midrange and the Pass Labs amp (X series, not the XA or XS series - I was specifically told by Pass that the X series would mate better with the Thiels than the XS).  I had the 7bcubed in my house for about a week.  Couldn't get it to work well with the 2.4's at all.

I've gone thru a few really good amps over the years and felt something was always lacking

I am not sure there is a perfect component.  You could spend a lot of money on something but it won't be perfect.  Every design is a compromise.  I like the CS2.4 very much but I always feel like there's something it could do better, but of course this is also true for any speakers in the world regardless of cost.

Thanks Steve, very insightful. I gave up on my CS6's years ago.  I've gone thru a few really good amps over the years and felt something was always lacking. I still have the 6's w/ss1 but only use them maybe a week every year or so.  Class D may be in my future or get off my rear end sell them.

@holco thanks for the pics. Looks like you still have the stock 0.72 mH coil on the woofer board. Is that the one too far out of spec?

Were you able to compare SQ with and without the foil coil on the coax board?

I really enjoyed my years with the CS1.6. I had them well away from the rear wall and there was no meaningful output below 50 cycles. I gave serious consideration to adding Vandy or Thiel subs but ended up moving on. Outside of the lack of bass, my only complaint was an irritating distortion with a subset of songs from certain female vocalists. Had me reaching for the volume control. But the overall transparency and resolution was exceptional at that price point.

For the visually inclined among you I have posted some photos on the diy audio forum.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics.html#post5683434

the Vandersteen aerodynamic driver patent has expired, reflections do matter
Bryston has a unique port shape also....at least in the mini-A

happy Friday to all !!!!!

Beetle - the airflow technology addresses any and all airflow situations. A high-impact situation is port flow; in a sense that is low hanging fruit. There are many other situations that apply to all speakers. I am looking at back-wave implications for the passive radiator and all drivers. Bass frequencies move more air, but all frequencies have potential. The flair around driver circumferences may come into play, especially at coupling frequencies where the driver transitions from constant velocity to constant acceleration. Air viscosity and turbulence are prevalent in such transitions. We're looking at the rim between the tweeter and coax mid in my newly acquired MCS1, which shares the 2.3 coax, similar to the 2.4. The 1.6 has a significant tweeter wave guide in conjunction with an acoustic loading device to suppress the oil-can resonance peak. Hmmm, what if that interplay might be settled. 

Short answer is yes, many potential applications. The only audio implementation to date is a round port in a Tannoy monitor and augmentation of a B&W golfball textured port. My first application is the 1.6 slot to see what we learn in the higher resolution Thiel CS platform. By the way, the 2002 CS1.6 is better than I thought possible at $2K retail.

Happy Friday! All.

beetlemania
I see. I will combine a CD/SACD player which ever way I go.
I do not own any Vinyl. I wonder where the clipping point lies with Ayre separates? I will consider shooting out both integrated and separates on the next demo.  Keep up the excellent XO work!

Happy Listening!

@tomthiel That is very interesting and I look forward to reading your report. Do you imagine the technology will eventually extend to the other Thiel models or just those few with a slot port?

@jafant I have the stock resistors. I suspect the 6 dB gain version is for people with low gain phono setups. I have a TT but my cartridge and phono stage work well with my amp albeit the gain is plainly down compared to my DAC (and with hirez I rarely listen to vinyl anymore). Regardless, the stock version works well with my 2.4s.

brayeagle
I am patient as well. I had planned a Bryston audition during the holiday stretch, but the dealer/retailer (Engulf Audio) did not show? Onward and upward. Stay safe and warm.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

Thank You for the hot tip. The reading tells us that a 301 ohm resistor can switch out to a 619K ohm resistor. Is this where the extra 6db of gain results? Have you made this particular change to your AX-5 Twenty?
I plan to consult Alan about this matter during my next visit.

Happy Listening!

Beetle - I have heard A-B comparisons only with Tannoy speakers in a good large room with decent sources. These demos were professional, not high-fi. I would not say there was any particularly tangible imaging involved. What everyone including myself heard was a cohesive solidity in the harmonic structure of the sound field - natural detail and realness entered the scene, akin to the proverbial lifting of the veil where none had been evident. I would call the effect extraordinary and surprising.

Within the month I expect to have a customized kit of materials to apply to the 1.6s for direct A-B comparison and SpectraFoo analysis in my studio.

Beetle - patents are in the works, so no substantive news yet. I am beta-developing the technology using the CS1.6 as my test mule. The 1.6 / 1.7 slotted port is unusual in its airflow dynamics. Ports care where they are placed in their enclosures. The 1.6 long slot side-steps some of those placement issues by being placed in the lower chamber at large. So its airflow dynamics are more complex than usual, since the broad placement creates a gradient of interface parameters with the enclosure resonances.

I can report first-hand that the slot works.
I can also report that the interface technology will improve it as well as improve speakers in general - a fluid dynamics solution for fluid dynamics problems.

Plenty more to tell when I can.

You guys facing inclement weather -stay safe and warm out there.

@tomthiel I can’t wait to hear your airflow technology. I’m wondering how that might modify image density.

@jafant Looks like either a qx-5 or dx-5 into an ax-5 will clip at about “40” on the indicator, assuming full output CD such as most rock recordings. Only a small difference between the models. This is for XLR connections. RCA will be more like “44”. This also assumes a stock AX-5. Apparently, there is a version with 6 dB gain resistors, so that will modify accordingly. Keep in mind this is not an exact science and other factors can influence the onset of clipping. 

Jim - please keep us apprised of how the 2.3s do for you. The original 2.3 coax was the pioneer coax. Do you know when its upgrade happened?

My original prototype Brazilian Rosewood O2s from 1976 we given to our parents as an early appreciation gift for their support. They are in storage at my youngest brother's house in Virginia; I'll get them this summer and, of course, soup them up a little. The O2 actually started the audiophile ball rolling. The O1 was a 10" 2-way Rock-n-Roll Boogie Machine with 3rd order slopes and huge magnets for high efficiency and the EQ for 30 Hz bass . . .  but not much finesse. Some early supporters asked if Jim could design something more refined, which became the O2 6.5" ported 2-way with second order slopes. Quite lovely for its day. I will apply the boundary-layer airflow technology under present development to the port and driver circumferences, add some absorption to the baffle to reduce diffraction and upgrade the passive components. And I bet we'll have a sweet little bookshelf monitor.

Thank you,
Tom

jafant,

I’m patiently waiting. :-) :-) :-)

Meanwhile,we’re awaiting for the polar vortex to hit us. (Forecast for minus 7 wind chill tomorrow.)
I grew up in the Sonoran Desert, where the two most-hated four-letter curse words were Cold and Snow.
George

@tomthiel. i also meant to thank you and pass on my admiration for the great work you and brother did. And condolences. So very happy to hear you are reinvigorated and moving the ball forward again - rebirth is possible !!!!

my understanding is they are factory supported updates w dual magnets and related xover changes. I take delivery sometime Mid February and will get you serial numbers, photos, then.

My brother still has a pair of 02 circa 1979 ish..running strong !!!!!!

best !

Jim

tomic601 - I would be most appreciative to learn the nature of the 2.3 upgrades. Beetlemania and I are working on the 2.4 and I have heard rumors that some folks have plugged in 2.4 drivers and XO to the 2.3 cabinet. If you have first-hand information about such an undertaking, it would help me assess the territory.

thosb

stevecham is a subwoofer reliable source, as is, John Ellison over on Audio Asylum.  Happy Listening!

pops 

my pleasure. We know that Classe' is a favorite match with Thiel speakers.  Meridian remains a digital favorite among many Audiophiles at large.  Happy Listening!

brayeagle

I have not forgot about you. I am still attempting to procure a Bryston 4B3 audition with a dealer/retailer north of Atlanta. Hope you are well today and enjoying your system. Stay tuned.

Happy Listening!

tomic601
Good to see you here again. I look forward in reading more contributions from you soon.  Happy Listening!

Thank You! Panel. It was a very good day indeed. The factor that impressed me most - Alan did not down-sell the Ayre integrated.
On the other hand, Alan did not try to up-sell the regular separates nor Twenty separates for a substantial monetary margin. We all know this is a rarity among dealers/retailers. A few of you guys have contacted me via PM to report a previous connection with Mr. Alan Jones going way back, in some instances. One thing is certain, this gentleman knows Thiel Audio loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

also, appreciate the review of Alan’s great HiFi Buys in Atlanta. I have over the years bought a bunch of gear there and have always been spoiled by him and his team. 
best

Jim

my compliments on this most excellent, civil and collaborative thread ! Many thanks Jafant.

I am working a trade for a pair of 2.3 with some updated drivers ( mid/tweeter and xover ) , dont have them as yet but will post when I do. I worked at a Thiel dealer in late 70’s early 80’s ( Audio Connection Huron, Ohio ) so I certainly appreciate the brand, history and especially Jim T and his engineering and principle driven approach. I am certain I met Jim while at CES in Chicago, probably at the Drake.
While I am a big Vandersteen fan, I do look forward to having a pair of Thiel in the arsenal !

Jim

jafant - nice review and hope to read several more from you!

thanks stevecham, you're making me a believer!

Cool Jafant - sounds like a great day!  I still have my Classe CA200 amp and meridian Digital player I bought from HiFi Buys around 22 years ago when I lived there!

Pretty sure I once heard a V-1 with the CS7.2, no issues just music. CS5 I’ve not heard ever but agree that most Ayre amps probably not be the best match. The “40” on the indicator is for my specific combo of amp and source! I can probably calculate the typical clipping level for the combo you have below.

beetlemania

my pleasure. I am really looking forward to the next session with an Ayre spinner. Alan did remark that any Ayre amp would not mate well to a Thiel CS5 nor 7.2 speaker. Much more current is required for those models specifically. I will try to get closer to "40" during next demo.
I rather enjoyed the presentation and sound yesterday.

Happy Listening!

@jafant glad you got to hear that Ayre stack. My combo of AX-5 and QB-9 will result in clipping around a “40” on the volume indicator (max 46, 1.5 dB steps). My room is 18x19 with a vaulted ceiling and two large openings on the rear wall. I listen at indicated 20-24 for folk and such, maybe 26-28 for orchestral, and 28-32 for rock. Much more than that becomes too loud for my preference. I have not experienced any strain at any level, just beautiful music. 

stevecham
Thank You for citing your power amp history- that is quite the list!
No doubt that PS Audio is making tremendous strides in many areas of Audio reproduction. Ask ronkent , as he is our resident PS Audio expert.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania
this one is for you my Audiophile friend. Today, I spent a beautiful sunny afternoon in Buckhead Atlanta, visiting HiFi Buys. Owner Alan Jones has been in audio retail for 25 years and counting. In fact, he was the southeast Thiel Audio dealer/retailer until Mr. Jim Thiel's passing.
Alan has a very nice photo with Jim in his office. I have known of his excellent reputation from his days of operating Audio Alternative.
I wanted to audition Ayre electronics, which has been on my short list, for many years. I am glad that I waited because the current operation has much better sound rooms than the older establishment per Alan.
Specifically, the Ayre AX-5 Twenty peaked my interest. The rest of the system- Monitor Audio PL100 speakers, Ayre QX-5 Twenty digital hub, AudioQuest Niagara 5000 power conditioner (much needed in downtown Atlanta), Audioquest Hurricane and Tornado PC, Audioquest Castle Rock  72V SP, and Audioquest XLR 72V IC (green connectors thus I did not see the model name). 
No physical cd/sacd player  on-hand for this demo, although my next audition will include an Ayre DX-5, so I can really dial-in the combo. The DX-5 is the only spinner where Ayre stocks  spare critical parts (drives/laser assemblies/transports)  per the late Charles Hansen.
Now, the fun begins. Selections via ROON and Tidal included my reference title Jamie Cullum 'Twentysomething', various Ben Harper, Daft Punk, Kate Bush, New Order and The Rolling Stones 'Get Your Ya Ya's Out'.  The combination of gear and speakers was excellent. I was pleasantly surprised by the full range sound of the MA monitor speakers.
Excellent air, instrument separation, little to no distortion, was appreciated. Excellent bass and treble extension heard. The system was slightly warm of neutral all around. I detected zero dry, lean nor thin characteristics all around. Overall, an excellent presentation.
Today's goal was to evaluate the Ayre Integrated amp on a first time demo. I look forward to the next installment with Ayre's own spinner to compliment my massive cd/sacd collection. 
Alan concurred that Ayre is a sonic match for Thiel Audio loudspeakers.
Further, he stated that I could not go wrong with an integrated or separates from a current/power output perspective. Distance was around 8 feet from set up and volume was set to 30 (plenty loud for close proximity).

Happy Listening!

As some may recall, I was outspoken and against Class D amps for many years, having heard only a pair of Rotel monoblocks at a local dealer about 13 years ago. My position was that there was no way a switching design could outperform Class A and A/B designs due to all that high frequency noise. Fast forward to late 2018...

I have owned amps (integrated, stereo and monoblocks) by conrad johnson (tubed and solid state), Parasound, Bryston, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Denon, Marantz, NAD and most recently, Manley Labs. After reading about PS Audio’s Stellar line, and in need of a dedicated preamp as I was downsizing, I decided to take them up on their trade-in and home trial offer and I am so very glad I did. The M700s "woke" up my Thiels in a way no other amps ever have. I know, that’s quite a statement, but I have had several of my audio buds come over for a listen. They were all familiar with my other amps through my Thiels. All said by far the best they’d heard. It’s not so much the power and oomph they provide, indeed they’ve got that, and certainly the Krell FPB 400cx had it, but it’s the quality of the music they produce. I don’t listen loudly anymore, typically peaking in the low 80s SPL by my ratshack meter. These sound like tubes, and I know what tubes sound like, but they are also very micro and macro dynamically revealing, very sweet once broken in, and best of all, I have never heard so much front to back and left/right resolution. I’m also a musician, and I have never heard in any of my systems, acoustic guitar that sounds like it’s in the room like that. If this is a good as it gets from here until the end, I’m totally satisified. There is zero noise, even with my ear up to the tweeters at a level that would be deafening. By far the highest value purchase I’ve ever made. Same with the Gain Cell DAC preamp. PS Audio absolutely rocks! Anyone who is in the market for a preamp/DAC, stereo amp or monoblocks really should consider their home trial offer. I’ll bet VERY few get sent back.

Just checked hifishark for the thiel integrator...boy they don't come on the market very often!

stevecham - can you please elaborate on your choice of amps?  I am interested in the Stellar M700s and wondering how they sound compared to other amps you have used with the Thiels? Thanks ahead of time!