Thiel Owners

Rob will only have the CC SAs which were CC's best at the time, for the series feeds.

Appears that @vair68robert has CS2.7, not CS2.4, so Rob's Clarity SAs are almost certainly incorrect capacitance

I do have a question for you beetemainia and holco ,
did you change or increase the wiring guage ?

 From my 5 March 2019 post in this thread:

I replaced every passive part from the binding posts to the driver hookup wire.
Binding posts: Cardas "CPBP" (rhodium over silver), dual for biwire
Woofer in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair plus 2x17.5 ga hand twisted (~14 ga equivalent)
Woofer out: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair
Coax in: Cardas 2x15 ga twisted pair
Coax out: Cardas 2x17.5 ga hand twisted
(wire gauge per Tom Thiel recommendation; OEM wire was 18 ga throughout)

Rob - I have done considerable work comparing and choosing caps and resistors, both with Beetle and consulting with folks at Thiel. I chose Mills MRA-12 resistors and ClarityCap CSA feed capacitors plus some CC customs for shunts. It is likely that large shunt caps will actually be electrolytics, which I have not chosen. I have not yet done the iterations re which caps matter enough for which price points, etc. But I have chosen candidate caps for each spot. Rob will only have the CC SAs which were CC's best at the time, for the series feeds. My legal status is not finalized for Thiel bankruptcy, so I can't now share schematics, etc. I consider Thiel coils world-class. Do not increase wire size in coils, since their resistance IS critical to the circuit performance. We learned that later CS2.4 XOs were made in China with inferior wire. Rob G might know the serial # watershed and might have Thiel coils. If so, I recommend upgrading at least the series feed coil in the midrange circuit. I am using custom coils from ERSE or Jensen as world-class equals. 

Regarding wire, as I've mentioned, that stock wire is world-class and carefully chosen. There is a widespread belief that sexier wire is better, and I concur in general. However, remember that increasing size will reduce resistance and that the wire resistance is part of the overall circuit design. Eventually I will measure the differences and compensate. For now, I suggest experimenting with different type (such as litz) at the same gauge, especially the long runs between XO and drivers. There is a spot which I perceive advantage without much alteration. Between the input terminals and the XO carries both direct and shunt signal and therefore acts as a choke point, both + and -. I like it thicker, but haven't measured it until I get to work on the XO as a whole.

There is room for improvement via better input terminals. I suggest tight mechanical connections before soldering. BTW, bare copper or silver on copper rocks. Gold isn't that great and brass is poor. CAIG Labs makes a conductive paste with cleaner-antioxidant in it. Keeps non-gold connections clean and conductive.  

Keep us posted.

Thank you Tom

I haven't taken the speakers out yet , not until I start the crossovers upgrad project .

To answer beetemania's question and maybe more insight into the issue.
When playing the IBE cd louder than normal something vibrating 
making a noise like jon-5912's story about sub's virating pan on the oven ( I'm still laughing about that ) . 
The vibration starts at about 30hz and ends about 105hz .
This is not coming from the speaker but from behind it ,
the bass is sound is not affected .
Thanks again for the info about the EBI cd , I printed out the 
freqeuncy and timing chart .

I do have a question for you beetemainia and holco ,
did you change or increase the wiring guage ?
Tom what would be you opinion on increasing the wiring gauge ?
I was thinking of using Cardas 11.5 gauge with WBT fastons .

Until I open the speaker up and inventory componets on the boards 
or I hope Rob can give me info or schematics 
I can only guess at what componts I'll use ,
but I will ask you guys what you used and why .

Happy Monday 
Rob

As a general observation, wire management is a big deal. Thiel buried long runs in channels routed into cabinet walls, sometimes used goo to attach to braces and generally made a spiral by rotating the driver as it goes into position. If you've had drivers out, you may have wire rattle.

Jupiter copper is supposed to sound superb. i considered those as bypasses. Of course, you can’t do the whole board with those even if you have unlimited budget (and space). Jupiter Cu capacitance is nowhere near the values on a Thiel XO.

I’m still confused as to what you did when you experienced the resonance.

Ayre recommends playing the IBE at “moderate” levels which I interpret as less than typical SPL for music.

When I did my XO rebuild, I searched for cabinet modes with steady tones (ie, not IBE). At higher SPLs, there were many frequencies that caused distressing distortions. I never determined the cause - amp or speaker - but immediately stopped that exploration!

Thank G*d, actual music sounds sublime!

Wow Thanks beetlemania

None yet , that project will begin right after New Year .
Still working on the amp , 32 caps and 3 resistors 
with 2 resistors and 4 recitifiers going in next week end 
leaving just 10 more caps and 8 resistors to go .
I doing this in small groups to see how they affect the sound 
and control any problems .
I've been using Hovland and Nichicon caps 
but for the speakers I think I'll use Jupitor CU caps .

1:04 on the Ayre IBE long glide tone is ~28 Hz. Charles Hansen posted the formula on audioasylum.

What caps did you replace? In the 2.7s?

Thank you jon-5912 and brayeagle 

I feel relieved and I to have only heard it with the test CD .

I'll be running it again next week when I replace 
the recitifiers on the amp that are faster and have a softer recovery  .



 

agree with jon.

Test tomes resulted in weird noises, both earlier 3.5s and now the 2.7s. 

I played around with test tones on my 3.7s and heard some mild vibration in the crossover.  Something is resonating down there but I've never heard it with anything other than the test tone cd so I don't worry about it.  Test tones can do funny things.  When I bought a big sub and was running frequency sweeps I heard a loud weird sound upstairs that scared me.  Turned out the pan in the oven was going crazy with a particular frequency played loudly by the sub.  Never noticed that with anything other than test tones either.  All sorts of stuff can start resonating with a continuous signal at a particular frequency.  Since music doesn't normally contain long continuous single frequency notes like that you'll likely never excite those resonances to near the degree you can with tones.

With both speakers it could be a room mode or other boundary effect. Test it by changing locations in the room.

Vibrations from Both speakers at low hz , could it be the wires ?

I have a CD called Irrational, But Efficacious!  by Ayre and Cardas .
I play this as break-in sound every time I've installed new components  on my amp project. The CD has a track called full glide tone 
that sweeps from 5hz to 20,000hz , my CS2.7s do not start to 
produce sound until 1min. 4secs ( 30hz ? ) .
In the past I played this disc at listening level but the other day 
I had replaced all the power capacitors so I thought that I'd
try a louder setting.  
Both speakers had this vibrating noise that sounded like a metal plate 
or my thoughts speaker wires touching the bass basket .
There wasn't any distortion to the sound , just this added vibration noise 
that would go away as the frequency increased during the sweep .

Have any of you experienced this ?
Do any of you have any ideas about what it could be ?

I plan on e-mailing Rob for information about getting to the crossover
boards ( something that I've been working up the courage to do ) . 

I'd like to thank holco for his beautiful system images that help me visualize the Xover boards .

Rob




                                                                

R. I. P. Ginger Baker. 

While waiting for my braised brisket to cook, I went to the "Speakers" topic and went to the beginning, hoping to find threads about AR3a speakers.    Found this:    Not much has changed.

Thiel 30 April 2000 thread:

"Looking for advice in driving Thiel 2.2s. I love the clean, detailed sound they provide with $10,000 amps, but my current gear (mass-market junk) doesn't cut it. Advice? I need both an amp and a preamp, and am willing to spend up to about $3500 total."

Tomthiel, 

Your baffle modifications sound very interesting. I'm excited to see exactly what will be implemented and what the sonic effects will be. I'm planning to keep my CS2.2 speakers and willing to invest in effective tweaks/updates that make a great speaker even greater.

My thought has always been that the core system should be as accurate as possible but allow for an alternative when you want to listen to something that is hard to tolerate without some softening.  In the past I've run two paths, one using the balanced and the other the RCA jacks.  I ran the RCA path through a tube buffer that would warm the signal up a tad.  It let me easily switch back and forth just by using the source switch on the preamp.  I'm sure there are people who will have a problem with there being two sets of interconnects hooked up but if they're short I don't think it's a problem.  

I think the way to go if you want to manipulate the signal a little bit is to get digital eq.  I'm 100% on board with the speakers being as accurate as possible.  Accuracy is a difficult enough to achieve without trying to somehow modify the sound to have a particular character.  

Wow, Tom, thank you for that candid post.

Regarding my upgrade, I would not hesitate to do it again. Some may consider it expensive, especially relative to the price of used Thiels, But the result is a speaker that compares favorably against other models up to $30k and is not embarrassed by the very best I’ve heard.

 I am very curious about your baffle treatment. I need to know more but am a likely candidate! 

I have searched the thread and not found an answer. Apologies if it exists and I have missed it.

I own some beautiful CS5s and am considering a  set of Parasound JC1s. Anyone every hear the combo? 2 channel audio only. Thank you in advance.

All - I think this lovely Autumn Friday in New Hampshire is a good time to share some recent developments. Several months ago, there were posts here about the Thiel midrange being shouty and harsh, and I pushed back to have set up scores of shows where that simply wasn't the case. I then began some soul-searching and tried to thank the poster off-line, but he had taken down his post. I want to thank him for a very productive period of my life. I apologize for not keeping your names straight, but time required to review the thread is more than I have. Here goes.

A tremendous amount of effort by Thiel aficionados goes into finding music, hardware, cables and room conditions to make their Thiels sing. We all do it. Thiel did it. Notice the Krell, Levinson, Pass and other amps that work, sometimes costing a large multiple of the speakers' price. I have musician friends who invest their lives in making their CD the best they can make it. And often on my reference system, built around CS2.2s, it can sound shouty and harsh, with midrange glare most evident when the music gets loud and complex. Same goes for rock, jazz and symphonies. We tend to blame the record producer because stellar CDs do sound good. Beetle (I think) asked here about that and I agreed with his assertion that Jim only valued good playback on excellent CDs, with no excuses for poorly engineered material.

Fair enough as far as it goes, but there is a lot of room between the few best examples and most of the remainder. In the past few months, I have listened to hundreds of (non audiophile) CDs, and don't like what I hear on most of them. I shifted the hypothetical responsibility away from the record producer and onto myself, and over a few weeks' time, I believe I am approaching a core paradigm shift. Whereas Jim's paradigm, shared by the whole Thiel team might be summarized: 'Complete Fidelity to the speaker's Input Signal', mine is developing more like: 'Translation of the artists' Dream'. I know that is fraught with philosophical burdens, but it also serves to take responsibility for a bigger slice of the pie. For instance, the new paradigm would have prohibited the low Thiel impedances because the Artists' Dream is to reach a populace which includes sub $$$$ amps. And so forth and so on.

A self-limiting assumption is that making the music more accessible will de facto reduce its accuracy. That will not be tolerated. I am proposing keeping present performance as a performance base line. After months of inner work, I have identified a sphere of great promise. And I appreciate those of you who are co-developing and testing with me, just as I appreciate Beetle and Holco and others off list who have co-developed crossover solutions. What we tried in Beetle's 2.4s achieves very  high-quality results, but the cost would be in three figures. And my verification here showed that something still seemed un-addressed. "It" became more evident with the (new to me) 3.6s from the hotrod garage. Despite their greater power, deeper bass and higher resolution than the 2.2s, there is also more upper midrange congestion, harshness, glare; more so on complex and loud music. My trusty stethoscope helped me find some sort of hash on the baffle flats that sounds a lot like the in-room "problem". Further dots were connected with the Vandersteen baffle discussion here, as well as my experiences with Dunlavy and Hales over the years. I am in the 4th iteration of baffle treatment which produces more, not less, inner detail and image size-height, while reducing that "glare" to where the large majority of music becomes enticing and enjoyable, rather than requiring excuses. I have trouble staying out of the studio to do my required work on other projects!
I am now assembling some kits for some of you to try, and feed back what you learn. I simply lack the upper frequency hearing, and face a shortage of appropriate listeners in my small village. Thanks guys. Present work addresses multiple cabinet aspects. I was part of 2.2 and 3.6 cabinet development, and proud of it. So it surprises me that so much work was left undone, due primarily to riding the wild bronco of manufacturing development and growth. The largest surprise to me is that for a fraction of the cost of crossover upgrades, we can make a qualitative improvement in the sonic presentation, in the musical assessibility. I know that's hard for insiders to believe and it puts a huge burden of proof on me;  I'm not asking you to believe anything. But, I am looking forward to user critique more than I ever have in the past.

Jafant - I catch all the posts, but try to limit my input to matters that matter. Rob has told me about the 2.3 x MCS coax, but third-party verification is always in order before anyone commits cash.

tomthiel
I was hoping your eyes would catch this post by our newest contributor from France.  That would be very cool as there are many pairs of CS 2.3 on the secondary internet marketplace.  Hope you are well this Fall day and having fun in your Hot Rod garage.
Happy Listening!

Ambroiseg - I believe the MCS-1 shares the coax with the CS2.3

Happy Friday! All

ambroiseg
Good to see you again here.  At your leisure, take time to read this thread from the beginning. I believe that you will find a plethora of information.
There are a few international members of the Panel here. To my knowledge, you are the first from Paris. Thiel Audio is truly represented around the world. I hope Rob is able to assist your initial query. I like your musical tastes.
Happy Listening!

Nice to you :)

So I'll wait for Mr Gillum's answer.

I'm french, i live in Paris and I discovered Thiel's speakers by buying to someone 3 MCS1, which 2 of them had the coaxial damaged. One central MCS1 (I'm selling it because I listen music more than watching movies) sounds good and amazing ! I tried it with an old 60's french tube amp : Jason A-2-25 : 25W with a great quality.
Awaiting for MCS1 repair, I use my TDL RTL 4 : uk speakers from the 90's, very good, but a bit too wet and confuse compared to MCS1, yet more bass.

I listen to various kind of music, mostly on vinyl : heavy metal, classical, french song...

cascadesphil
Good to see you again. Thank You for posting CSS' phone number.
Happy Listening!

ambroiseg
Welcome!  Mr. Rob Gillum is your guy at Coherent Source Service.
He is a one-man operation and will reply to email or phone call as soon as possible.  Keep me posted after your consultation on replacement parts / tweaking the cross-over (XO). I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes and system.

Happy Listening!

I'd try calling Coherent Source -  +1.859.554.9790

Hi !

I recently bought a pair of MSC1 for a great price but the two coaxial drivers are dead... Is it possible to find replacement parts ? I sent a mail to Coherent Source Service but no answer...

Is there a possible replacement from another brand ? May I tweak the crossover ? Thank you so much.

Ambroise

gasman117

Nice catch!  There seems to be a few of you guys in the NY state area.

Happy Listening!

FYI
Thiel 3.7's on craigslist rochester.  $7000

a bit out of my range at this moment

if someone buys them, i  live in rochester and would be happy to hold them for you. 
i'd even deliver within couple hours for the privilege of helping someone achieve nirvana.

dave

vair68robert,

Starting with a pair of 2.2s in 1996, I too have mostly bought used since then, and it's still been a rather expensive (but rewarding) hobby. I'm surprised and pleased to learn that CA-2300s are fetching $5k+ used. That's a bit more than I paid used for my CT-2300 in 2011.

I admire your DIY effort upgrading your electronics. I lack expertise and skill with a soldering iron in that area, but I did take a deep-dive into acoustic measurement and room treatment as well as designing and building an ultrasonic vinyl cleaning system to earn my DIY wings.

Back on the topic of adding subs, I should add that Thiel cross-overs, whether passive or active, do a superb job seamlessly integrating subs with main speakers.

Bob

ish_mail

You're welcome .
I'm still replacing capacitos and resistors as my budget allows ,
with ultra-fast soft recovery recitiers being next .
Basically part DIY hobby and part the cost of audiophilism .
Used CJ MF-2550se are going for Over $3,700 ,
a Classe CA2300 is going for over $5,000
and a CJ Premeier 350sa went for over $5,000 this year .

I have noticed that many Thiel owners are using Conrad Johnson
equipment both solid state and tube .
At the same time it seems that adding a sub or two seems to be a popular addition .

 I am thinking about adding a CJ preamp
( used ) to replace my passive preamp .

This is a Fun hobby that is or can be very $$$$$ 
and I am trying to keep it down to $$ by buying used and upgrading .

Rob

@tomic601 Thanks for the Thiel offer. I have my eyes on the Thiel 3.7 for the downstairs now.

A speaker you did recommend  to me in another post will get a much stronger second for look my office, the Vandersteen Treo CT. All this Thiel thinking made me circle back on the Treo CT.

yyzzsantabarbara......I could deliver a nice pair of cherry 2.3 to you on my way South in October, just for grins....Mods don’t over rotate on this....

@vair68robert Thanks for your post back on 9/11 with the link to the article comparing the Classé CA-2300 and the C-J MF-2550 SE amps running 3.7s. I've been running 3.7s with a Classé CT-2300 (same as CA-2300 except for the case). Starting with the amp and speakers alone, I added a single Thiel SW1 sub via a PXO5 passive X-over, and finally a pair of JL Audio subs via a Thiel SI-1 active X-over. Along the way, I installed an array of tuned (60 Hz) bass traps on my rear wall to fix a severe SBIR problem –– this in addition to more standard room treatments.

The CA-2300 handled the 3.7s quite well from the beginning, but adding the Thiel SI-1 and the dual subs made the most significant improvement. High frequencies were sweeter and stayed sweet to louder volumes, the sound was more transparent, vastly improved extremely immersive sound stage, etc. Adding dual subs with the active X-over lightened the loads on both the amp and the speakers. It's hard to say how much of the improvement came from each component, but I suspect at least some of it had to do with easing the load on the amp. Consistent with the review, while the Classé amp performed quite well on its own, this suggests that there might be room for improvement in its load handling abilities.

It's worth noting that the reviewer didn't prefer the MF-2550 SE in all respects. He preferred the C-J Premier 350SA's weight and soundstage and referenced the Classé's (presumably superior) subtlety. I'm not shopping for a new amp right now, so I'll just make a note for future reference. If your room and budget allow, you might consider adding sub(s) with an active cross-over as an alternative to upgrading to a heftier unit if you're otherwise happy with your amp.

Happy Friday! All

I appreciate the nice comment thosb!

Getting caught up on my favorite thread and have to say a belated but big thanks to andy2 and prof for explaining what they are hearing when they listen to 1st vs 2nd order crossovers.  You guys (and many others on this thread) have tons of listening experience and a talent for being able to explain what you hear, thanks for sharing!

TMR just listed a pair of teak CS 3.6 for $1499.   Described by TMR as 7 out of 10.

I won't get a 2.7 or 3.7  for the office if I get the 3.7 for the downstairs. I just have to convince the wife that a toddler needs a 3.7. Though when we were dating 12 years ago she went with me to an audition of the 3.7 (in a smallish room) and I told her I would get this speaker one day. I had Revel Salon 1 at that time and loved the 3.7 so much more than the Salons. Good thing is my kid loves music like me and so does the wife, though a little less crazy than me about it.

At the time of the Salons I had a house in the woods in the Bay Area, CA and could crank my music at any time and any level. I got the house to fit the speakers (single life). I downsized from the Revel Salons to the AudioengineUSA 2+ desktop speakers ($299) when I moved down the coast with the wife.

If I cannot convince her of the 3.7 for the downstairs then a 2.7 or 3.7 for the upstairs. 

yyzsantabarbara

A unique opportunity to own both CS 2.7 (office) and CS 3.7 (downstairs room). I am excited for your future Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

Thanks guys. I have been looking into the 2.7’s today.

The 3 office speakers I have previously narrowed down my search are 10K, 15K, and 18K MRSP. I know I would get the same audio happiness buying a 3.7 and the price would be a lot better. The 2.7 would seem like a smarter choice for my room and even cheaper. Those other speakers now are starting to seem a little expensive given my rekindled excitement for the Thiel.

A light-bulb moment for me today was when I realized a used 3.7 would be a good choice for my living room downstairs. It is 22 x 13 x 30+. There is an additional 5 feet that can be added to the 13 feet room width if I include the staircase. Currently that room is my toddlers play room and has no furniture (just toys). I have been trying to think of a dream speaker I can get down there that is sturdy (my 3 year old is strong), with strong drivers, and sounds great. It will get dinged up with the boy and his friends but these things are meant to be enjoyed.

yyzsantabarbara

Good to see you again.  I usually advise the CS 2.7 model for an office / small room application. OTOH, I can see your wanting to procure a sweet pair of CS 3.7 loudspeakers.  Continue to watch the demo/used market as well as internet sites. California is a Hot market for this kind of activity.

Happy Listening!

hi YYZ,  like Prof.  i have owned both 2.7 and 3.7 (current).   i think for your space the 2.7's would do a great job. the drivers sit a bit lower (about 4") and are easier to work with for most listening positions

@tomthiel I am a huge Thiel fan myself. 

If I could find a 2.7 I would be interested but these things are becoming harder to find. Lucky for me the tax man is keeping me broke for a few more months. I will keep an eye out for the 3.7 or 2.7 because the coaxial driver and the dispersion pattern of these 2 speakers are good for my seating position. I am seated slight more to the left side of the room.