Thiel Owners
https://manofmany.com/tech/audio/dynaudios-evidence-loudspeakers-85000-well-spentDamn ... tall, slim, and perfectly proportioned lols. That definitely will make me spend 80K on front ends :-) Here's a trick question: Does really it matter how they sound? |
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Thank You for reviving the old CS 7.2/Levinson thread. I would be interested in learning if any of those guys still own the 7.2 loudspeaker?" Been quite a while since I lived in the DC area and my friend who worked at the store and I did deliveries with. Most of that was the late 1990s through around 2005 (my friend was gone from the store a few years when I sold my 7.2s and got my 3.7s and since he helped me sell my 7.2s the owner let him deliver my 3.7s and took care of him). There's an old Washington Post article (I was not able to find it) from around 15+ years ago about one of the people I was talking about that deals with ultra high end 2-channel systems. His first name was Hugh (last name escapes me at the moment - was a retired Navy pilot - very nice guy) and he was the focus of the article. I think back then he had about $140k at retail into his 2-channel system. Besides being over his place (which I enjoyed), I'd see him at events at the local audio shop. There probably weren't too many of us back then who used to frequent that local shop who owned 7.2s. Back then I think the most expensive speaker I saw in someone's house were these - https://manofmany.com/tech/audio/dynaudios-evidence-loudspeakers-85000-well-spent Room wasn't a good match (way too small but I understand the customer moved a couple of years later into a bigger place) and he had Levinson 33Hs which I helped install. I always look at used stuff (not that I need anything), particularly local to me and probably one of these days, I'll end up picking up something speaker wise.
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andy, Yes that's a fair point. Though I think to a degree. But there is so much that you can adjust via speaker positioning/room acoustics, especially when we are talking about things like an assertive treble, that it makes sense as a first step before trying to "fix" it with gear that may or may not come close to doing so. On the other hand, I don't think I'd get exactly what I get from my CJ tube gear vs a solid state amp, strictly from changing speaker positions. |
Playing with speaker position and room acoustic will yield differences that swamp what you’d get switching around digital sources.(And btw, I’m not in the camp that says every digital source sounds the same).That's missing the point though. Every adjustment will have an affect on different aspects of the sound. Speaker position, room, ... will have some specific on the sound, just as cables, DAC will have their own affects that cannot be found in position ... |
dsper How much of a DYIer are you ? Would you consider replacing and upgrading the componets in your amp? If so try replacing the rectifiers with fast and soft recovery ones . Since the 500 is an older amp it might have fast recovery but not soft , I was suprised at the difference they made for around $7 each x 4 . Rob |
dsper Reviewing your original post- the Naim and Mark Levinson are very fine players indeed. Not familiar with the AudioSpace CD8 but find it cool as there are many excellent spinners out there. I too find modern DAC(s) on the clinical side. If you like the sound from Cullen and Synergistic Research, consider, a full loom (interconnects and speaker cables). Keep me posted as you find that perfect balance between cabling and gear. Happy Listening! |
Hi prof, Are you sure you have done all you can with speaker position/listening position/acoustics to dial in your speakers before chasing other solutions?You are asking a fair question. I have added bass traps across the front wall ceiling and down the front wall corners; and have added absorption panels on one side wall where one speaker has to be set within three feet of that side wall. At that time, I also tried to dial in speaker placement. However, I have not revisited speaker placement and room acoustics since I acquired my latest transport and DAC. My problem is that my equipment upgrades since I acquired the CS5's have all been noticeable improvements so I keep wondering what I am "obviously" missing in that regard. Or put another way, perhaps I have lost sight of the room/placement variables. And I have not yet set up my turntable since acquiring the Thiels... Thanks for the advice! Dsper |
Let me add my impressions to the comparison of the 7.0 and 7.2. we listened to some Michael Jackson songs from thriller album. Rob has all Bryston, the latest CD, pre amp and 28 B3 amps. Not sure about cables. As the room is an office, perhaps 14 x 16 ft without any room treatment, it is fairly alive. Listening to both the 7 sand 7.2, at 85 to 95 dB the immediate impression is the excellent bottom and bass response. Hard to pick a winner as both were astounding. The mid and high is where we there is a difference. The 7.2 is more resolving and given the acoustics more intrusive in the highs whereas the 7 was more balanced all around. When I came home and compared the same music on my 3.5 and 3.7 I would say that the 3.5 has the same character of the 7 but can't compete at the higher spl. The 3.7 can't match the 7 or 7.2 in the bass but easily makes up for it in the mid and highs where the resolution, clarity and balance is unmatched. If anything, how all of these speakers have a great soundstage and draw you into the music makes you forget that the are these differences. I would say love the speakers you have and make them work the best with what you have as far as room and other components. |
Hi Dsper, Playing with speaker position and room acoustic will yield differences that swamp what you’d get switching around digital sources.(And btw, I’m not in the camp that says every digital source sounds the same). You should be able to alter the brightness, image focus, soundstage depth, all sorts of things, by playing with positioning (or perhaps adding some acoustic absorption panels or a diffuser at a problematic reflection point).My left speaker is right near a very reflective tiled fireplace. It can cause some shrill high end so I made a thick velvet cover that I place over that area (on hooks) for listening. Works perfectly to balance the sound. Are you sure you have done all you can with speaker position/listening position/acoustics to dial in your speakers before chasing other solutions? (Of course if you really want to try those other things, go for it). Cheers. |
Oh Boy! I did not mean to create any controversy about speaker wire or transports! Let me try to explain my last couple of posts. My Thiel CS5's fell into my lap as a good local deal and started an exploration of how good the CS5's could sound. First, there was a two year process to get to an amp that I felt could power the CS5's without breaking my bank/space. Then I worked on room acoustics but could not tame a shrillness in the treble. At that point I received some good advice from another CS5 owner regarding ladder DACs. I found a Theta ProBasic III, which eliminated the shrillness and sounded more organic to me. I was still aiming for that live, nuanced presence so I tried upgrading to a PS Audio PerfectWave transport and was amazed at how the increased detail improved the "aliveness" of the sound. At the same time, another thread suggested I try higher gauge speaker wire that yielded more detail and an improvement as corroborated by recent postings on this thread. My transport post was simply trying to elicit advice on how to maximize the sound of the CS5's. I am thinking CS 6 and 7 owners might have cool stuff to share. The suggestions from bray eagle about Belden Iconoclast cables and vair68robert about Cardas 9.5 stranded litz are both news to me and appreciated! Thanks for listening, Dsper |
dsper Anytime is the right time for Cabling discussion. Wether you wish to persue the DIY route or aftermarket, there is something for everyone. We have a few members of the Panel who enjoy the DIY aspect offering plenty of information in this thread. Equally, there are other members of the Panel who enjoy the aftermarket companies. No right or wrong approaches regarding cabling. Take your time, demo all interests and have fun in process! Good to see you here. Happy Listening! |
tmsrdg, I'm not turning the thread in to a cable debate. I don't want to go in to any depth on cables 'n stuff in this thread. That's why I made such a short comment. But on the subject of merely talking about these things, I believe you have an imbalanced and biased sense of proportion: I simply added my voice to anyone else's opinions on the subject. Why is, for instance, your opinion to be the default - automatically favored over mine? Why is your experience to be seen as veridical, and a relevant data point, but mine and my experience counts for nothing? Why is it any less "tedious" to hear a constant throng of "every material sounds different/all cables/tweaks change the sound?" With no counterpoint to it? This hobby comprises audiophiles who have a range of opinions and experience supporting those opinions. Why should your own version be the default, which can be explicated over and over, yet someone more on the continuum of being skeptical (for good reasons) should just sit down and shuddup? When someone asks about cables, or in this case particularly about spending money on transports and which server "sounds best," he is sure to get many opinions about how to spend that money. I'm simply adding in one other perspective "you *might* want to consider that you are considering quite a lot of money for something that is controversial and for which the claims can be fairly dubious.* It was people who added that voice to discussions like this who helped folks like me figure out where allocating my money made the most sense. No one has to do as I do. But it's good to hear other viewpoints, rather than live in an echo-chamber IMO. BTW, you might consider dialing back the insults ("cognitively challenged" analogy). Doesn't help anything. Cheers. |
prof, re your reply to Dsper above: it's getting somewhat tedious to constantly read the same thing from you on cables. We all know how you feel, no need for constant reiteration. It's like saying over and over "I'm cognitively challenged and I expect everyone else to be too!" My wife and I, both professional classical musicians, have done the A-B test with numerous cables, amps, cd players and etc. There has never been any problem whatsoever in identifying different cables selected randomly from a list of say, 6. My wife (or me) selects a cable, the other person closes their eyes, opens them when the system is turned back on, and, no problem identifying the exact cable. Just like there is no problem hearing the difference between the Steinway 12 feet away from our 3.7s and the Thiels themselves. I have to say, thankfully, that's a small difference... |
Dsper, I am interested in other Thiel owner opinions regarding transports and DACs and at what point a listener needs to start playing with interconnects. You don't need to play with either. (And certainly not transports...and streamers/servers don't 'have a sound of their own' if they are operating properly). But from what you wrote, I don't think that's the point of view you are looking for. It's your money ;-) |
Hi Dsper, I'm a great believer in quality multi-strand cabling for audio frequencies. That's why I've used Belden stock for years. (Disclaimer: I have no financial nor proprietary interests in Belden.) Recently, Belden has offered a new stock, specifically aimed at the audio high-end market. It looks very interesting as an alternative to some of the exorbitantly priced mumbo jumbo cables designed to separate a HiFi addict from his hard earned dollars. I found the explanation of this Belden Iconoclast cable to be reasonable; however, since I haven't auditioned any system using these new cables, I can't vouch for the increase in performance over what I now use. If you're interested: https://www.iconoclastcable.com Just my ancient two cents George |
Hi brayeagle, I found your post about speaker wiring: "... I began to use DYI speaker and interconnects - - top Belden wire with the best connectors I could get...Belden AWG 10 for speaker wiring..."I just replaced 16 gauge lamp cord on my Thiel CS5's with 10 gauge multi-strand copper wire and I can hear an improvement! Better detail that provides more decay and presence. It got me to thinking about why I believed lamp cord was good enough and recalled that I had looked at Roger Russell's "Speaker Wire" discussions http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm. This was back when I was listening to easier to drive speakers like Advents, Paradigms, and Magnepans. If I had thought to refer to Roger's " Maximum Wire Lengths For TWO CONDUCTOR Copper Wire" chart when I purchased the CS5's, I would have been hearing better music for the last couple of years! Thanks for listening, Dsper |
JA - our time was quite limited, a wreck on the expressway cost us over two hours late arrival. Most of our time covered tech. Rob has original driver and product testing rigs and much deeper stock than I had imagined. He has all the development prototypes from Cs3.5 on. At CSS he has a showroom/office, adequate for the job of comparison. We didn’t make it home where is we’ll hi Fi-Ed. At CSS he has Bryson cubed series. ThielRules might know the gear particulars. TR was there as well as Tammy, long-time driver-maker, and Jeremy Kling, son of Walter Kling, co-originator and Mfgr Director after I left. We all compared 7s to 7.2s and considered them co-equal. Concrete and polymer baffles are equally inert- deader than CS5. Sound is preferential- only. 7 is gentler,7.2is more incisive. We heard equal detail. Jim was working on a 7.3 and I suspect a goal was to mitigate the “in your face” tendency of the 7.2. Best I’ve heard. |
It seems to me that Thiel renaissance is on the way, that's good, very good to hear.Thanks Tom, what best christmas gift could we wish?Maybe we will see Tom and Rob together in a new enterprise, if this is the case I wish all the best to both of you.I already have dealed with Rob twice, can witness he is a strongly recommendable and competent guy. About Tom His name and career speak for him. |
Hi tomthiel, jayant, fitter, asturias & others, If anyone is in the N. CA area, you're welcome to audition my 7.2s, which have been described by the former local distributor of Thiels, as the "best 7.2s on the planet by far". Not bragging, just sharing. I also own 2.3s which have been very competent. Great to see such enthusiasm! Happy Holidays all! Keith aka kld236 |
Hi, I am interested in other Thiel owner opinions regarding transports and DACs and at what point a listener needs to start playing with interconnects. My recent journey included using an AudioSpace CD8A as transport and a Ric Schultz modified Oppo 105 in my system (Prima Luna Dialogue Premium preamp, McCormack DNA-500 amp, Thiel CS5 speakers, and Synergistic Research and Cullen interconnects). Anyway, things were not sounding right to me. I have two great dealers in my area who let me try various components at home. Over several weeks I auditioned a Naim CD5si, Levinson 390S, Rega DAC R, Bryston BDA1, and a fairly recent PS Audio DAC, do not recall which one. I also listened in the showroom to an Esoteric streamer that lists for like $7,500. Just too clinical for my taste - all detail but no music - no PRAT. I ended up with a Hegel HD25 that I also had auditioned; and paired that with the AudioSpace as the transport. This sounded passable for a while until I decided the treble was just too sharp. It had been suggested to me from a fellow Audiogoner to try a R2R ladder DAC so I acquired a vintage Theta ProBasic III. This was a wow moment for me because it provided a more detailed and nuanced sound with much less treble sharpness. Then I acquired a PS Audio Perfectwave Transport, which was another wow moment. Combined with the Theta DAC, the detail and presence went up another whole level. And I do mean wow. So my question is how do I get closer to a "live" sound? Is it a different transport or DAC? Or is it time to adjust what I have through different interconnects? Most of my equipment upgrade experience has resulted in wow moments so I have not paid much attention to interconnects.... Your advice and comments, please. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Preliminary report from Lexington. Rob is well equipped and stocked with knowledge, experience and parts. A truckload of spare parts was delivered from Audio Consultants - what a score! We spent some time comparing CS7 to 7.2. More discussion can follow; don’t hesitate to score a good deal on the original 7s. |
Someone pointed me to Bang & Olufsen Uni-Phase xover design. At least based on theory, the filter will be able to achieve 0 degree phase shift across the frequency band, hence the name Uni-Phase. I have not seen the step response but the square waves all look very good - not too unlike that from a time-phase coherent/time-coincident design. Unlike the Thiel or Vandersteen, though, the Uni-Phase uses 2nd order filters, not first order filters. The advantage is 2nd order does not stress out the drivers as much as first order filter. For reference : https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/10/29/bo-tech-uni-phase-loudspeakers/ |
As I said a few posts above, I believe that one of the differences in sound signature of first-order filter is that high order filter, there is a faster change in phase, which results in excess overshoot and undershoot in time domain. And the reasons why were explained in my previous posts. I here compare different impulse response of different filters. An ideal first-order time-phase coherent has the "best" impulse response. The 3rd order electrical filter has the worst. There are a total of six different filters here: 1. First order ideal https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129364003/in/album-72157711891600612/ 2. Third order electrical: shows the most undershoot, overshoot: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129853971/in/album-72157711891600612/ 3. First Order, No Time-Phase Coherent https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49130037747/in/album-72157711891600612/ 4. Three-Way Time-Phase/Time-Coincident: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129363963/in/album-72157711891600612/ 5. Another Three-Way Time-Phase/Time-Coincident: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129363973/in/album-72157711891600612/ 6. A Two-Way Time-Phase/Time-Coincident: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49130076182/in/album-72157711891600612/ |
I was playing around with a three-way mock-up. Basically I use a setup with what I already have. Making the cabinets would just take a lot of time. The tweeter is ScanSpeak AirCir, Seas Nextel 5.5in. as mid, and Scanspeak Illuminator 5.5 in as woofer. I don’t current have a dedicate cabinet for 8in. woofer but the freq/phase behavior should not be that different. Measurement was done at 1Meter distant between the tweeter and the mid which is about 33in. high. There are quite a bit of ripples on the freq. response probably due to room reflection which also shown in the step response being taking a bit longer time to settle at the low frequencies. The xover seems a bit complicated, but that’s typical of first order, time-phase coherent, time-coincident speakers. The 50uf cap on the tweeter should only affect the lower freq. so it probably will be OK. Actually I don’t need it there for freq. response, but I put it there to protect the tweeter. Pic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129808921/in/album-72157711891600612/ Xover: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129320988/in/album-72157711891600612/ |
I just purchased cs 7s I am very happy with them and they are a big improvement over my 3.6s I had. that being said my bryston 4b is not able to make them sing like it did with the 3.6s while I’m sure the 7.2s are better for me I couldn’t justify the difference in price And would rather use the money towards a bigger and better amp. |
Also note (not sure of the date) that the initial 7.2s had a concrete baffles (the ones I previously owned did not). My understanding (could be wrong and it was a long time ago) is that there were some problems in shipping them to the Far East (cracking). I believe there was about a 15 pound difference in the weight of each speaker having the composite baffle vs. the concrete one (which was the one that weighed 15 pounds more). There's probably threads on the concrete vs. the composite one and people's impressions, although I'd imagine that would be a very hard comparison unless there were 2 sets of 7.2s in the room with the same system. For those looking at used ones, don't forget hifishark.com. I go there probably once a week or so (not that I need anything with all my systems but it doesn't hurt to look). |
Asturias, I have 7.2s! They're absolutely fabulous in my system due to many factors. So coherent, detailed, and neutral. I supplement them with Enigma super tweeters and a pair of SVS PB4000 subs. I have PPT E Cards on the driver magnets. Enhanced Oppo 105, Jeff Rowland's PSU, DAC & Corus Pre, PPT everything everywhere, incl The Gate. Bybee iQSE v2s for atmosphere energizing. Exotic power cables and supply. Analysis Plus interconnects and loudspeaker cables. (and more...) Buy them if you can find them! They're a testimony of the late great Jim Thiel's magnificent work. Good luck. |
