I just heard the Sasha and The Thiel 3.7 and these two speakers stood head and shoulders above all the competition.
I was very impressed with both of these!
Great demo at Audio Perfection in Minneapolis of the Wilsons. Those guys are great there! |
Mr_bill,
Do you think these two speakers are very close? Can you specify the pros and cons while comparing these two speakers? I don't have opportunity to compare these two speakers side by side. Thank you. |
I've owned WP 5.1's and Thiel 2.4's. One of the things Wilson speakers are known for is their electrostatic like resolution of low level detail. The material used in their cabinets, while expensive, absorbs less energy than conventional MDF. While my 5.1's had issues, they did have that spooky realism of an electrostatic along with the slam of a good dynamic speaker. I suspect the cabinet material contributes toward this.
The Thiel 2.4 actually had a better sense of 3D space than the Wilson's in my listening room. But, I couldn't hear detail down the the noise floor as I could on the Wilson. In short, the 5.1's were so revealing I could hear micro details at lower volume levels as one could do with the Quad ESL 63. The Thiel simply didn't have the resolving power and required increased volume. I realize an argument can be made that the 5.1's resolving ability resulted from an overly hot upper midrange and treble. Which is why the later WP's have moved toward retaining the resolving power while reducing the excessive brightness of the 5.1.
My question to those that have heard the Thiel 3.7 and the Sasha is this. Can the 3.7 resolve low level detail as well as the electrostatic like Wilson or does it require increased volume levels?
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Egrady,
"Can the 3.7 resolve low level detail as well as the electrostatic like Wilson"
In short yes. The 3.7s are one of the most resolving box speakers I have ever heard. But I have never heard a box speaker get more details in the mids than a good electrostatic (wilsons are far from it too...). I also own a pair of CS2.4, while they are a good speaker the 3.7 is on another level.
I find it interesting you found the Wilson more revealing than thiel. Was it just in the highs or was it also in the mids and bass? I am not a stickler for highs and find most good speakers recreate the highs good enough for me because of my tastes I may not have noticed the CS2.4s short coming in the highs (if it exists). But I am very picky about the mids and bass. I like a LOT of midrange detail and smooth textured bass. In those two areas I feel Thiel hit a home run with the 3.7s. |
I recently heard also the Magico Q5 and the M5 series.
Both driven with super high end gears.
Definitely i can appreciate the refinement of these speakers.
But for a floorstander, it isn't quite as full range sounding as say a Wilson Sophia or sasha.
For the amount of $ these speakers are involved, I'd really have to think twice about them.
I've also recently heard the Sophia 3s and the Sashas.
For the cost of these speakers compared to the Magicos,I'd put my money on these speakers and spend the rest on electronics.
However, I can understand why some people would prefer the Magicos over the other speakers.
As they say, to each his own ! |
I'd pick the Thiel 3.7s over both the Wilson Sasha and the Magico Q5.
Thiel makes an excellent speaker at their respective price point. Not perfect, but again, consider the price.
To Egrady, I always thought my 7.2s required some volume to become involving. Not excessively loud, but they need to move some air to get the detail. In contrast, my Avalons sound fantastic at a whisper or a roar. The 7.2 was such a great speaker, it took the Avalon Isis to get me interested in upgrading. |
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I mean not off course , you should always test with the same "upstream" components /room , stereophile has a fine balance off testing :listening/measurements |
I have been listening to 3.7s for around two weeks. I love them very much! Every speaker has its shorcoming. To my ears, 3.7's base is very flat, tight, transparent, and resolving. So quality wise, 3.7 has great bass. However, its base doesn't go down very deep, and not "punchy". Some people might its base is a little bit "shy". I have Thiel resolve this issue perfectly by adding their smart subs. I never heard them, so I can't comment on that. |
I have heard the Thiel CS 3.7 with 1 Thiel Smart Sub. My audiophile review of the sound is, "I did not like it". I will be buying the Thiel CS 3.7 to use without any subs. |
Thiel 3.7s with a pair of JL Audio L112s
and plenty of clean power---250 wts+
= n i r v a n a |
Thiel 3.7s with a pair of JL Audio L112s
and plenty of clean power---250 wts+
= n i r v a n a |
Why would you pair up one speaker with an amp that is voiced for it and then listen to another speaker with the same amp if it's not voiced for it? I'm not saying that's what happened in the original post, just saying. In my opinion, you can surely compare different speakers with different amps but they have to be at the same price point (that you can afford), they have to be the "best" amp for the speaker, and the comparison must be in the same room (preferably your room). It may be the only way to compare two different speakers... with the electronics that let them sound their best. |
Ketchup,
I do not agree with price point shopping for hi-fi... This is one market you do not always get what you pay for... I can think of at least 5, $5000 or less speakers that would out shine LOTs of $10000-$15000 speakers. |
James63,
I agree with you. |
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I would also love to see that list. |
I mentioned the price point because you can only enjoy a speaker in your home with the electronics that you can afford. If you're shopping for speakers and electronics, you have to get what sounds the best to you at a cost that you an afford.
I would also like to see that list... let's hear it. |
Well here is a shot list of great $5000ish speakers. I have included some "expert" reviews... if you don't want to trust my opinion. So here we go flame suit on.
Thiel C2.4 (price just raised from $4900 to $5900 last month)
"The Thiel CS2.4 is a great loudspeaker, one of the very best I've heard regardless of price. Its treble soars and its bass plummets, but all the while the CS2.4 sounds utterly neutral and musically communicative. This speaker looks gorgeous and has the earmarks of heirloom-quality craftsmanship. The CS2.4 will be at home in a tweaked-out dedicated listening room or in a finely decorated living room, and its moderate size means it won't take up much space in either."
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/thiel_cs24.htm
PSB Synchrony One
"With a proper amp, though, you'll find that these speakers are capable of remarkable performance from top to bottom with bass performance that is notable for the speakers' size and price, loudness capabilities that belong to speakers twice the size, and a midrange presentation that sets a new standard for tonal accuracy, clarity and detail."
"To my ears, the Synchrony One is the best PSB speaker yet, and it establishes a benchmark for value and performance -- something that seems synonymous with Paul Bartons name."
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_synchrony_one.htm
Magnepan 1.7
"Here we have a $1995 speaker whose staging, focus, and low-level resolution are not just much better than that of its excellent predecessor but downright superb by any standard short of a CLX or an M5, with detailing in bass choirs that was so good it reminded me of the Maggie 1-Us (which had the most lifelike detail in the mid-to-upper bass I've ever heard). " Jonathan Valin
http://www.avguide.com/blog/magnepan-mg-17-unqualified-triumph
Magnepan 3.6
No review needed hundreds of owners here alone...
For the last speakers I was actually thinking of Dynaudio's S5.4 but they are a good bit more than I thought... But the list of brands that make good budget speakers goes on and I am sure someone could add to my list with Gallo, Usher, Revel, Dynaudio, and countless other speakers I will never hear...
Some speakers in the $10,000-$15000 that I demoed at length that did not make the cut.
Focal 1037s $1100ish (bad integration, tweeter oddities, bass VERY room depentant, but had a very clear midrange)
B&W 802D (moments of glory, but odd bass anomalies, very poor dynamic contrasts, colored as a whole, I did like them at one time though).
Klipsch P-38F $12000 (wheres the music?, each driver was great but sounded separated in space, too much bass in room I heard them, not for me but I heard them in the same room as the Magnepan 20.1 so it was not a fair fight)
Wilson Audio Duettes $14000ish (Poor detail retrieval for $14000 and only ok in general, uneven bass in a very good room, some resonance in the kick drum+ range possibly caused by port noise). I realize there is some adjustability to these but I did not take the time, YMMV.
I am sure many of you have speakers/brands you love to hate and great brands that don't get press... and there are lots of speakers that fall into no man's land of good but not great. |
I think that it is silly to think that you can really understand the differences in speakers if the demo uses different electronics or rooms. How do you attribute the differenct characteristics heard to the speaker, but not to the upstream signal or the room interactions?
My last serious demo was when I bought my Wilson Sophias. I had already owned the Thiel CS 1.6s (a very highly regarded speaker) as my fronts for a couple of years. I made a special trip to the dealer (over 200 miles away) to do some auditioning. I listened to another pair of Thiel's (but I can not remember which particular model) as I was considering staying with that house sound.
We started by auditioning the Thiel's with using the same amplfier that I owned at that time so that we could be as close to my system as possible. I then demoed the Wilson Sohpias whith those electronics. We then switched to some other higher powered amps so that I could make sure that I was hearing all the potential out of both pairs of speakers. The pre-amp and source was never changed. The process took several hours but I was able to make very accurate conclusions on how these speakers sounded in their dedicated auditioning room and how they would sound in my home.
During that audition there was a clear winner and I knew that I was certainly hearing the differences in the speakers. Even my wife (who has never been a fan of how the Wilsons look, even to this day, 6 years later) could hear the diffences. Simply put, the Wilsons just sounded more like real music. |
Musictime,
All of our choices are more personal at this stage in the game than anything. I demoed the Sophia 3 and Thiel 3.7 in the same room same system yesterday for about two hours.... I pretty much feel the same way as the original poster but my review would be even less kind to the Wilsons.
Maybe I will start a new thread and go into the detail. I am pretty worn-out from traveling (work related) at the moment though. |
James63,
Thanks for your post. When you do have some time, I would be interested in hearing the deatails of your demo day. I do agree that there is alot of personal taste at this level of audio reproduction. I wonder how much the difference in opinion on these speakers is due synergery (or lack of) of the upstream components. |
Musictime,
I wrote you up a review of my demo but it ended up being three pages long and I could not post it as a new thread....
I e-mail it to you instead. If anyone else wants to read my BS about the Sophia 3 vs 3.7, just send me an e-mail, and I will forward it your way. |
James63,
I received your review of the demo day. I hope you are able to somehow post it (maybe split it up into a post then reply), because its well written with good insight.
I think it would peak some interesting debate. |
Musictime,
Thanks for the kind words about my review. I was not sure how people would react because of the strong stance I took, and rather harsh comments I made, but they were from the heart and how I really felt.
I was not ready for the number of e-mails I received about the quasi review (30+) and it has become rather hard to keep track of what conversation I am having with whom. I did just read through my review for the first time and it had a ton of typos, so maybe I will fix all the spelling/typing errors and post it latter. |
I felt KEF Reference 203's outshined a $50k Meridian setup. I didn't want to feel that way because I wanted a Meridian setup so badly, but I couldn't deny what my ears heard. Meridian DSP 5500, 5000c, 5000 (18bit). Another good sub-$5k option are B&W Nautilus in varying models but I have no personal experience with Theil or Wilson, feel free to send me some if you want my opinion. :) |
