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Lloyd, there's a high end dealer nearby who sells Wilsons. At some point, I really should treat myself to an audition. |
Lloyd, on whim and fancy, audition the Paradign S8s v2 or v3 (w/ Be tweeters). Make sure they are presented fairly and that they are driven with good electronics. I think you might be surprised at how much they do right and how little they don't. Probably the major weakness is crisp deep bass. That's an easy fix with a Paradigm Signature servo sub, or a next generation Sub 25. I'm not tellin ya they're better than the Wilsons, or any other speaker per se. All I'm saying is they are worth a fair listen in a good room with good equipment. IMHO |
Hi Bifwynne,
Agree...and there are loads of speakers out there we could all name that are "better" than the "25" that made the list. I actually only commenting on how well Wilson did. I do like the 3 speakers named, particularly the Alexandria. I have not heard anything i prefer, though i am curious about the Rockport Arrakis and the Genesis Statement which i have heard are stunning. |
Bill, I knew with just a little effort we could smoke you out. Thanks for the approbabtion. The Morons :<( |
Audiophilereview.com?
LOL
Morons |
Lloyd, on a serious note, I try to take Audio reviews and surveys like this with a grain of salt. Generally, I don't get involved with threads like this.
The speakers that made the top 25 are all fine speakers. But when I see that other top performers like Vandys did not make the list (actually #26), . . . well one can only wonder???? OTOH, I was somewhat tickled to see that my Paradigm S8s made #7, especially since they cost a fraction of what most of the other top performers cost.
FWIW, take it with a smile. :-)) |
Wow...just read that article on Top 25 speakers...Wilson came out on top big time. Maxx 3, Alexandria and Sasha's all in the top 5.
I will say, all are excellent, and i think the Alexandria 2s are stunning. |
Just feel like starting trouble. Oooopps, I own #7.
audiophilereview.com
LOL ;-) |
In a moderate size room the best speaker I have listened to is the ClassisLoudspeaker T3.4.I am comparing it with speakers I owned for years or decades.By far better than the JM Lab Nova,or Utopia,Martin logan Prodigy or Monolith,Dayton wright XG-10(when it worked it was really good).I auditioned many speakers at shows and in show rooms,including the different Wilsons,Tiels,Avalon,Burmeisters,MBLs,etc. it beats them all.The music sounds like you are there with the musician. |
I heard some Focal Utopia Stella EM speakers a few weeks ago and I can't say that I've heard anything that I liked better. I've heard the Utopia Diablo and Grande models in the past and they are all excellent. |
I still love my Transcendence 8s powered by a DNA-500.
But if I ever go bigger, it will probably be for a Genesis 1.x system. Snappy percussion is something I admire and the Genesis 1 and 2 series really get that right and ALSO have a midrange as sweet as any panal systems I have heard and loved. |
I was at a party years ago and in the middle of a large room was one chair.
The owner told me this was the sweet spot; sit down and relax.
On came the Klipsch horns.
On came Bruce Springsteen.
I was on stage with him.
Its the moment where I truly understood what high fidelity was all about.
Prior to that I listened to the radio. |
I have now had the Daber Monitor 3's for two weeks and have had a chance to do some critical listening. I have the rounded cabinets in maple that Steve provides for a small extra fee. They are gorgeous with very high end carpentry work! The first thing that will strike you is the deep, tight bass for such a relatively small speaker. I doubt anyone but the most avid bass fan will see the need for a subwoofer in a two-channel setup. The mids are very satisfying and the highs are clear and precise. Vocals are rendered in a very natural fashion. The soundstage competes with the best. My wife, who is very musically inclined, even prefers them over my Acoustic Zen Adagios. A very different speaker and a matter of taste, but still high praise from a very musical person. I love them both for different reasons. To say that I am pleased with the results would be an understatement. In summary I think this must be one of the best values in speakers out there and they are made in the USA by a small entrepreneurial company. Give them a try - you will not be disappointed!
As a side note the speaker stands for the Volla speakers fit as if made for these speakers (rounded) - got them from MSS HIFI at a decent preice. Steve is planning on making stands for them as well in the near future. |
TBG
Sounds like you have found a solution, even though I have no idea what TIbetan bowls are (although now I am a bit hungry). I think it supports the point that a playback "system" includes your room. And yes, getting a good room can be a lifelong enterprise.
Brad |
"it had an amazing impact basically removing the sidewalls and the speaker walls"
So you are saying these treatments essentially turned your room into an anechoic chamber?
I don't doubt they have a positive effect used properly, but that sounds like a bit of an exaggeration? |
Transaudio, I have two listening rooms. One is quite large with high ceilings and natively pretty good acoustics. The other is a tiny 10 x 13 x 8' room in my small summer home in the mountains. I was never dissatisfied with the large room and very unhappy with the small room. Long ago after much experimentation in the large room I got it very satisfying. The small room took me two years to get it acceptable.
I don't think getting a "good" room is at all easy. I tried professional solutions like LEDE, profession diffusers, and even audio mirrors. I even tried digital room correction. Then after hearing a demonstration of the Synergistic Research ARTs and buying them on the spot, I found a solution in the large room. The small room also responded to using these Tibetan bowl derived wall treatments, making it listenable. This summer, I found another company also using the Tibetan bowl derived method, and it had an amazing impact basically removing the sidewalls and the speaker walls.
Basically, I agree with you, but it is not easy to create a "good" room. |
transaudio has a very good point. Bad equipment matching, bad room acoustics can make any good sounding loudspeaker bad irregardless of price. Acoustics in a room is very important, as important as the speaker design itself. All well designed loudspeakers however properly tuned and placed in the optimal acoustical environment with matching gear gives that audio nirvana feeling. There's always something in us that always wants us to push the envelope even though we might be satisfied with what we're hearing.
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I'd be willing to bet, reading some polar opposite posts about "best" being low cost and weird speakers alike, that it was more about what was the best ROOM. In my world (recording/mastering studios), its ALL about the room. A mix can blow you away in the right room on cheap speakers, or 2 seconds later sound like crap on killer speakers in a bad room.
I remember Glenn Meadows at Masterphonics used to master using Yamaha NS10M's on Cello amplifiers. Sounded very good in his room! That speaker, widely used for mixing, sounds awful to me 99% of the time.
Brad |
So far the best I've heard were the Legacy Helix at the Legacy Audio showroom in Springfield, IL. Other contenders Magnepan Tympani IVs, MG 3.6s, Acoustat 2+2s, Snell Type As, and Legacy 20/20s. I look forward to hearing other contenders. |
Revel Salon 2 driven with two Mark Levinsons in "compound biamp" mode. Even better than BOSE!! |
Bose? Really? Take it apart and see what you paid for. Gimmicky gadgets. It will never be a speaker audiophiles can take seriously. Hype is what you paid for. Simply put you can't polish a turd. I bet you run them with the Carver cube amps from the 1980's because they sold on hype and were such crap as well. Can you bi-wire them? Try lamp cord because all that fancy wire is just a waste of money too. |
Appogee Diva's: hearing things that left you incredulous and god smacked: we would laugh because all of that sound was coming from a piece of plastic with a diamond running through it! |
Wilson Benesch Bishops, driven by Graaf GM200 amp. |
You wouldn't be funnin' us, would ya, Dawgbyte? We have "Dawgs" here in Northern Ohio that wander in from the hills during football season. The team, especially management and coaches, as you've probably noticed, is persistently sad-sack. The colors of "rustbelt" seem to fit. |
This past weekend I had the privilege of listening to the finest speaker of all time. Micro dynamics, prosaic transients and sublime transparency that no other speaker can touch. The Dexter 6000R is by far the greatest man has ever produced. At $1,600,000 it's an absolute bargain. I was so blown away by the fidelity and sonic boom that I took delivery of two pair. Chim Richaldson of Dexter Audio personally set-up one of the systems in my master bathroom. The 6000R is the cure! |
I agree with HiFisoundguy. I have a pair of the 901 series 6 and they do wonders for me. I play them for people and then I play my Dynaudios. It helps people understand. Also, the top is large enough to mix martinis on. Try that on a harbeth. Ain't happening.
I also tried them in the shower. If you are using a regular shower radio, stepping up to the 901s can make a big impact. Acoustics in there are perfect for them. Again, the ample surface area on top makes a great place for your shampoo. |
The Harbeth monitor 30's are probably the most transparent and most balanced reference speaker that I've heard. You can't match their price-tag (considering the tuning & craftsmanship) with anything else available.
I have owned many systems and heard alot of speakers (quad,maggies,wilsons).
I have happily settled with Harbeth.
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I totally agree!!! speakers are the most important part of any audio system. I used Gradient Avanti and felt that they are one of the best speakers available in the market today. |
Was probably a friend's KLH 9's driven by a Futterman OTL amp.
At one time, I owned the same equipment but they never sounded as "real" as my friend's set up. Very obviously room dimensions, speaker placement, absorbtion factors, etc. have much to do with what you hear and my experience certainly proved that to be the case. |
To put my answer in context, understand that I have been out of this game for the better part of 20 years, for reasons too complicated for this post. My "new" 2 1/2 (?) systems, accumulated over about 20 months, are soon to get the juice, however!
BEST: I think Mark Levinson's demo of master tapes on his HQD System at CES in Chicago about 33 or 34 years ago. That would be huge Hartley [sub]woofer units (15"-ers? Or was it 18"?)... stacked Quad "57" ESLs...and Decca (Kelly) ribbon [super]tweeters. Of course, the source may have had something to do with it... But, whew (!): "It's hi-fi, Jim... but not as we know it."
MOST MIND-ALTERING, JAW-DROPPING, FANTASMAGORICAL, and JUST PLAIN SCARY: Professor Hill's Plasmatronics ($10K a pair, and it seemed kind of outrageous!) at one of those same CES's. An ion plasma "tweeter" aboard, in case you don't know; and enough ozone to bleach the walls, I expect. Don't give me your quibbles about "integration"... The Roger Wagner Chorale, doing "Dry Bones", complete with Spike Jones-alike sound effects, could stop your heart... or scare the bejeezuz out of a corpse, and START ITS ticker! To this day, when some reviewer describes a ribbon tweeter as "lightning fast", I laugh. |
There are two.
1) Acoustat 1+1 & RTR ESR 15 disassembled, and arranged in a line source next to the Acoustat panels, with the Acoustat HF Transformer removed, which allows you to use natural roll off of Acoustats crossing over to RTRs. It also increases efficiency,and detail, by removing haze caused by HF transformer to equalize HF response. Combination give you coherence, and dynamics. Easily driven with HQ 30 watt triode wired tube amp. Best with Subwoofer, as the Sunlights but imaging, detail, and dynamics are superb, and tall line source does wonders for helping wall and ceiling reflections. They were the best I have heard, until:
2) Sunlight 308s. Simply amazing speakers. I am driving with a 2.5 watt 6a3 Triode single ended amp. Doc Gizmo got it right in his "Triode Guild" write up of these speakers. Acquired from Johnk who probably regrets letting them go. All of the positive aspects of the Tannoy's that people rave about on the Tannoy sites, but with no veiling,or the power requirements to drive them, as well as much more detail, and great imaging. HF is limited to 17k, so system also included a Fostex t90aex tweeter horn tweeter to 40k, and a pair of Audio Pro B2-50s for the bottom end.
Both speaker systems were/are the best I have heard, and I would be had pressed to choose between them, assuming I could recreate the Acoutat/RTR system. The advantage to the Sunlights is that a very high quality low powered tube amp is not as expensive to build as a very high quality high powered tube amp, but they are heavy, and bulky to move around. the problems with the Acoutat/RTRs are that they are electorstatic, with high voltages, and the power supply of the RTRs can be cranky, to say the least.
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Sound Lab A-1PX electrostatics. They sound real. |
Overall best value/sound:
Vandersteen 2CE Sig II
Magnepan MMG
Magnepan 12
Favorite overall sound:
Current B&W 800 Diamond
Cost no object, sell the house/car to afford them:
Mcintosh XRT2K that had three 1kwatt amps per channel
I think the total cost of that rig was something like $250k?
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hifisoundgy,I had a pair of 301's.Much BETTER than the 901's.Go get em mapman!!!! |
Brad,
Welcome to the AudiogoN universe :-)
I've listened to ATC SCM150ASL Pros in L.A. (Charlie Bolois is my Studer tech extraordinaire!)
I've heard Hill Plasmatronics and own Beveridge Model II's, Model III's, and Rogers LS3/5A's. Dali MegaLine III's are my current reference loudspeaker.
Your comments are salient and observations are not hyperbole.
Best regards,
Sam
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For me it was not even the most expensive speakers that I enjoyed the best. I have heard Focal Grande Utopias and the Wilson Maxx before but they didn't do much for me. The best was Innersound Model 10. I also like Nola and Proac speakers a lot. |
The best speaker system I ever heard was the ATC 150s with ATC subs we demo'd at a pro audio show with Bill Schnee and Doug Sax (the guys who recorded all those Sheffield Labs discs of years ago). It was in a room treated from the ground up to sound great. The speakers and the room they are in is the speaker "system" together as a team. You will never get the greatest speaker in the world without addressing your room, putting a properly designed speaker in it that does not have dispersion problems or high distortion drive units inside, and then using decent sounding recordings.
Sorry for the strong statement, I am new to Audiogon, I supply high end studio equipment to folks that record, mix and master the records you listen to and evaluate these systems. I have dealing with rooms and speakers for a long time. I deal with people and their systems they work on, all day. The goal in professional music is to spot flaws so they can fix them before you do. The room you record in is key to a great sound. The room you monitor in and the monitors you use are key. If there are flaws in room or monitors, this becomes a flaw in the recording that's there forever. For example, if a monitoring system has poor top end response, you will mix bright to compensate and the final record sounds bright. Same thing about low end, if the room or speakers are bass heavy, you lighten up on the bass in the production process and the record will sound thin without real bass extension. A good monitoring rig is key to this work and something that all top people work to achieve.
So when I hear people say "I tried 4 pairs of speakers and they all sucked", you know its probably the room at play. When they say "I tried this really obscure piece of crap and it sounded wonderful", you know the room they are listening in has some major flaws!
Brad Lunde
Owner of TransAudioGroup |
I wonder if the best speaker you've ever heard is about pushing the envelope or being comfortable where you are? Its a very subjective question. All the absolute best speakers I've ever heard are beyond my financial resources. If you are satisfied with what you have, do you care if something else is better? |
I would have to give the nod to my Bose 901 Series 3. With my Heathkit receiver, these really rocked. By having all midrange drivers, there was a purity that Magicians and Magicpans can't match. |
In my first real component audio system, I had a pair of Lafayette Criterion short floorstanders with HEil tweeter in an all Lafayette system built around a 40 watt integrated (I worked at Lafayette at the time as a poor college kid and got a good deal).
They were my favorites from lafayette at that time due to the unique clarity of the heil, but teh rest was questionable. Also, the heils had a tendency to fry quite easily in that rig. I changed everything less than a year later.
I would like to hear a good modern heil design running off my current system. What I heard back then was probably not indicative of what is possible. |
I absolutely agree with MRTENNIS being a speaker collector. I've tried piezo electric,domes, waveguides, horns etc. but the ribbons, planars and electrostats which I also own are much cleaner than other types of transducers. I hope people get a change to experience the sound of ESS HEILS being used as your high/mid transducer. It is crystal clear with the right kind of gear more so then any other transducer I have heard. The other if you can find it is the add on JANSZEN Z-130 the last model made and the eminent technology. Some ribbon designs are better than others, the same with electrostats, you just have to find a design that suits your equipment. Some of the discontinued or defunct manufacturers made some great transducers but misfortune is the sad part of audio when companies who contribute no longer exist. |
Jas Audio Plato. They just bring a lot of energy in to the music, and give the sound a bit of nerve. Well it took only one demo, and a week later a brand new set where shipped to my home. |
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this is a difficult question to answer, because it depends upon the amp-speaker interaction.
i would say the best driver type is a ribbon, electrostat or planar magnetic. |
There are some who would insist that only Magico can be the best and that we are all delusional. |
Jsquattrin... I did not like these latest bose 901's at all the way bose recommended setup !.. You also have to use really GOOD interconnects and speaker cables with these 901's too, like the Crimson Musiclink cables ! Also, these speakers sound like sh*t with the bose stands, I got the best sound out of these 901's by putting them on top of some plastic milk crates about 12 inches off the floor and with the 901's tilted up a little bit by two large wagner anti-vibration pads under each speaker and with the 901's turned around backwards with most of the speaker drivers facing me ! They also sound their best in a large room with nothing around them !.. I also have my bose equalizer hook up between my source and my amazingly good Yamaha a-s2000 integrated amp that is also a really good match with these latest 901's too ! I also using some world class ac outlets in my system, "Maestro ac outlets" !! To my ears,everything in my system are "Giant Killers" !! |
I live near a bose outlet store and I have heard the new bose speakers and They sounded like my fathers stereo back in the 70's. They were presented to me as the much revered Bose 901's and I was polite and listened but they sounded decidedly midfi to me. No imaging or anything I would associate with being at the performance. I wouldn't ever listen to these and say WOW! It sounds like I'm right there at the performance. It is possible that they weren't set up correctly but that is also the responsibility of the retailer selling them. After going to the shows and hearing much of the equipment and seeing that alot of audiophiles who are lost and don't have a clue as to how a really good system should sound. Hell, 90% of high end stereo stores do not have there system's set up right. I live in the San Francisco bay area and I've been to easily 20+ stores over the years and between San Francisco, oakland, Berkley, and San Mateo, as well as Denver, and Just cause the store sell's expensive equipment doesn't mean its set up right. When you find a system that Disappears and doesn't even sound like you're in a room with speakers, then you know, that this guy knows, what he is doing. |
Tbg,
That was one of our favorite rooms :-)
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Rockitman, actually it was the MMMiniOnes that most impressed me at THE Show. |
