Audio Insider meets the Audio Ding-a-ling. Howdy, Ding!
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
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@geoffkait...……………………………………………….. I know you seem to be well respected here especially with over 11K posts to your name. It seems to me and I am only speaking of myself that most of your comments are quite snarky (when I say snarky I am being polite). From your posts, even if I was interested in whatever it is you sell, I would not buy anything from you, even if it was free. It always seem if someone doesn't agree with you, you call them names, etc. Again, I am speaking for merely myself. I wonder what names you will now call me, lol. I know I get annoyed from time to time and say things without thinking (and get called out on it), none of us are perfect, especially me, but can't you be a bit nicer or is it not in your blood to do so? Frankly, I am surprised everyone seems to put up with it. Ok, so now everyone can tar and feather me for speaking my mind. |
I got it. You prefer not to answer. It will not change anything important, but remember that you did not answer. As a little note on a side, I do not lie and I did ask the question before. It might have not been on "Talk but not walk" thread, but I did ask. Lack of evidence does not mean that certain event did not occur. It may merely mean that investigation has been flawed. |
I see no evidence you ever asked the question so I surmise you’re lying about it. But to answer your question, I actually prefer not (rpt) to say which Panasonic model I’m using at present, now that you bring it up. I use maybe five different players in the course of a year, of different brands and models. I trust that answers your question. |
glupson, sorry, but in this case you are partially incorrect. Geoff does always answers questions, but the answers are always the same. Pop quiz, what are Geoff's answers? Let me help, wire directionality, magic markers on the edges of CD's, cryogenics, and vibration control. There may be one or two others I am missing. |
glupson geoffkait, Do not get too upset. My questions are, in general, not addressed to you. So far, you have shown that you do not answer questions. >>>>I don’t get upset. I get even. I don’t answer questions? Give me an example. That would so unlike me. Perhaps you are confused, pumpkin. Ordinarily if someone asks me what time it is I’ll explain how to make a clock. Have a nice day. Do not get too upset. I know it’s your nature.🌷🌷🌷 |
Hi Inna That's a good point that sometimes I assume people already know about me, so I'm glad you brought that up, thanks. Counting up the amplifiers that I own right now and have here with me is 22 amps. If you count the audio closet I have access to there are around 200 amplifiers. I'm definitely not shy for equipment. It's funny that kosst the other day was trying to make comments about Class A amplifiers when I was not only a dealer for Nelson, toured with his amps on the trade show road, but have also tuned up maybe 30 of his amps in systems. I've probably owned 20 or so Class A amps myself, but it's more interesting to watch some of these guys ramble on not aware there are audiogon readers who know me rolling their eyes at them.LOL The Agon Mods have been great, the private emails from members have been great, the folks ordering have been wonderful, it's been fun talking to you and others, so I'm a happy camper. And the fact that the negative folks plan backfired is a hoot. I even took off most of the day today to spend time with Audiogon members. pretty cool Michael Green |
Hi Mitch2 As well there are many folks doing the opposite. I have a question for you. When you tried the small amp did you also try compatible speakers and other items, or did you just do a plug & play swap out? I don't know about anyone else but when I do a component change so drastic as the one mentioned by Mitch I also do a system match up to at least the level I did with my original system. One thing I have noticed with these smaller amps is they don't like complicated crossovers or many other things that we use with our past setups. That goes for wire and the whole boat. I'm seeing far more listeners going simple with better results then the other way around, by a big margin too. If those are looking to do this experiment be sure to let your amp burn in for a few months, especially with "D" amps. You would think this little thing will break in in no time but that's not the case from what I have been hearing. Michael Green |
You don't understand. Children have no access to expensive high level components, all they can have are some parts around house to build something by themselves for themselves. That's what Michael tries to do - to teach children how to do it and how to get the most out of it. Disregard the adult world, to hell with it. I just had to write again because of those micro-brains having nothing to offer but primitive harassment. Of course, big class A amp sounds better, everyone knows it including Michael. He also knows that Studer sounds better than any digital let alone his reference player. But that's not the point. In addition, Michael does not listen to music or components while listening to music, he is on a quest to create a particular sound signature. When he finds it the system is complete and tuned. That's what he is saying - find your own sound signature, I will help you. And, listen to his Chameleon speakers if you have a chance, with real good amp and analog source. Let me just say that they sound different, yes very much like an instrument. Try to see the best in people. In other words - don't be a....... |
Hi Tom You only do direct sales correct, you have no dealers right? If we went direct only we would publish the pricing on the main site as well obviously. As it is when someone inquires we fire them off pricelists. Why, did you need to purchase something? lol I'm pretty open to selling any way that works best. That's why they have edit programs for websites. Direct only is kind of a two edged sword. There's a part of me that wants to see the mom & pop stereo store come back. That era was wonderful for the consumer. But a store that has to compete against direct sales on the same product, that's a hard pill to shallow for me still. I'm sorry if that bugs some, but isn't that hope in you readers as well? Wouldn't it, by some miracle, be the coolest thing if stores were able to be that local hang out again? I don't know, I think there's a time you've got to stop with the greed and negativity and get back to the fun that made this all happen. I'm thrilled to death when a new person or someone from the past gets ahold of me and wants some of my goodies. I don't pretend to be the best business person, I don't even want to be the best business person, I just enjoy the ride and love it when someone else wants to come along. I like making people deals and mostly sharing music and our lives in music together. All this other stuff to me is just egos. Michael Green |
I like these forums because I learn something every time I visit. I actually did some walking a couple of years ago and tried lighter, smaller (i.e., more hip), Class D amplifiers by that guy from Belgium but alas I had to return to my old school,
overbuilt, yet somehow complicated, 95 pound each, 300 wpc, in room-heater, Class A monoblocks.....because they sound much better. I am surprised to learn I could have simply walked over to Parts Express and bought $20 Class D amplifier boards. Somehow, I am content to have stopped walking and to instead be sitting in front of an excellent-sounding system. When is it ok to stop walking? |
Hi Glupson Did you mean to say "over built"? Do a browse on some of the smaller amplifier builds and kits, they're all around. An easy example would be Parts Express. There's probably 20 sites like this throughout the world gaining more amplifier design credibility every day, both solid state and tubes. The Audiophile world (not HEA necessarily) is changing rapidly and at such a pace that HEA audiophiles are dropping out of the more expensive scene almost at the plinking of an eye. Now you can buy up and down the money scale anything you want, as far as amps & preamps go, sound wise. It's getting to the point where you can either pay for the chassis & some mystery theories or buy stripped down versions (that sound better) for hundreds, even less. Super low mass components and speakers are walking away with the hobby. It's not even up for debate anymore, it's simply a matter of watching it take place. Yep, there is a little debate on the HEA forums but these forums are changing almost overnight. The question listeners are now asking themselves is "why own complicated components and speakers"? It's truly not 25 years ago. There's no need to build complicated crossovers, and no need for complicated amplifiers, and certainly a bad idea to build over built, complicated, digital. The overbuilt complicated market is falling over the cliff as we speak. Glupson, you think we are seeing threads on the HEA dying, give it a couple more years when you'll read "what the heck happened". How many 40year olds are interested in huge space heaters for amps? I don't see but a few hands raised do you? This last AXPONA I talked to a few of my friends who are amp and speaker builders. How many products did you sell? 2, 3 maybe 5 if they are lying. Compare this to the 90's when you had salesfolks sitting at the table with the guy or gal taking orders with a couple people waiting in line to place theirs. That's not an opinion that's a fact. After the anger ends of people trying to desperately hang onto something that is fading we're going to come out on the other side with some great sounding systems, very much like so many people from the early 90's back do. The new components are not going to be big, there's no need for big anymore. I tell folks to look inside of the Sherwood 4105 and the brand X HEA product. No comparison as far as proper real estate goes. I mentioned this too, and I'll ask you. Why after all these years do HEA speakers require such complex crossovers? It's because there are that many problems in the design that needs corrected. Michael Green |
And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs. We offer products that serve to enhance the sound and physical performance of select string instruments. These devices are highly considered and reviewed from players around the world. Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art to benefit both the high fi system in your home as well as the live performance on stage. This becomes our mutual proving ground. It is our goal to merge the sound of the live performance venue and bring that reality into your home and studio. The previous may sound like an ad..well we have paid for banner ads as well as posted for sale items in several different catogories going back more than a decade..Some im post ers have paid zilch over that same decade. Are they just freeloaders and users not givers? They may talk but not give. Tom |
geoffkait, Do not get too upset. My questions are, in general, not addressed to you. So far, you have shown that you do not answer questions. You just babble your way as if nobody else exists. At least as if nobody else exists except for you to try to make fun of them or insult them. Bad boy. If a boy at all. |
Michael Green, I have been thinking about your recent post and HEA paradigm you mentioned and so on. I am a bit slow so I am still simmering my thoughts about it. Kind of like a slow cooker. I think you recently mentioned that current HEA is full of "over-engineered" products, or something to that effect. If I remembered those words right, what do you mean by that? Not necessarily the brand and model number, but what would be a general sign/idea of an overengineered product? |
Hi Readers I apologize for my former employee’s business partner. I have no clue why both he and Bobby are doing what they are here and with so much venom. As has been covered and now repeated for the how many times, Robert of Starsound worked for me for 9 months 20 some years ago and now distributes a line of cones I once got noticed as I introduced the Audiopoint to HEA. I know boring right? The MTD replaced the Audiopoint and life goes on and so on · and so forth · and so on and so forth · and the rest · and/or the like · and/or suchlike · and/or more of the same · and/or similar things. lol But But it is kind of cool that Michael Green Audio and/or RoomTune has been at the HEA Shows every year since 1989-present. That is pretty cool isn’t it! The fact that other designers and stores have trusted the designs for that long. Kinda neat. Thank you Tom for "just asking". And thank you for all the advertising your doing for me. Michael Green PS: holy smokes 34,000 views on this thread so far! |
Michael, you post a link to room tunes on your site. Yet nowhere in the link does it give a price for a basic room tune pack. In fact, there are no prices for anything. What gives? I have looked around on the site before and have had the same result when researching any of your products. I don't want to have to talk to Harold, or whoever the guy in the picture is, to find out how much products cost. |
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Hi Stereo5 Yes, I am RoomTune! The 90's were a blast weren't they! And yes we still make and sell the RoomTune http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune In the later 90's after the HEA market seemed pretty saturated with RoomTune and the Audiophile mom & pop stores went out of business I for the most part traded in my CES badge for my NAMM badge. That's the short version, but I've always been around just not as visible. Michael Green |
Thanks for the question about my involvement with Audiogon, but I’m pretty sure this has been covered before, maybe a few times. I will try to find more of the shows Audiogon covered for and with us and reissue them on TuneLand. Here’s one of them. _________________________________________________________ "Greetings and welcome to the 2005 CES show coverage from the Vegas Towers, No one puts out show coverage pictures like the people at Audiogon. I’d like to personally thank Steven Clay and Albert Porter for their excellent pictures and visit. What is it I always say? A picture is worth a thousand words and here are the ones that Audiogon has displaying on their site for you to view. After this article, please visit Audiogon.com and take a look at the 2005 CES coverage. _______________________________________________________ I probably have cut and paste this particular show to the recent TuneLand somewhere, however I don’t know how long Agon host their archives. I know we did ads and programs with Agon for a long time and got a great response. If and when the time comes I'm sure we can do it again but it probably won't be until after the forum trolling is gone. As folks read TuneLand you can see the type of community we are and if we did any ads it would be with those who have similar Vibe. No doubt the Mods here have the right feel, but the forum still is looked at 50/50. I know we're doing promotion with TONEAudio to help introduce our friends at AUDOLICI and we pop up here and there to say hi on "enjoy the music" and other places, but todays marketing is a lot different from the old paradigm and changing every day. For right now though just being here has introduced us back to a few hundred RoomTune and MGA followers and family. It's been interesting, for example Kosst negative comments have sold Picasso & Bare Essence interconnects and speaker wire for us, and Audiopoint rants has allowed quite a number of people to reconnect with us. We also have listeners ordering MGA Tuning Blocks, Speakers and RoomTune just from this thread alone. So if the sales do go into the hundreds of orders here I would think we will try some ads here again. In the meantime and as the trolling decreases here I will probably do a free banner for Agon on our website. It will go here http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/contact-information Michael Green |