Put it on Youtube
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
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Here’s another thread http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pieces-of-music-that-digital-can-t-get-right In this one it talks about things that digital can’t do. Ok, so I have several copies of "Ventura Highway" on digital, and I can make any adjustment I wish to the signal. here’s a quote "On the opening of America’s "Ventura Highway" the opening dueling guitars are ambient and bounce off each channel very pleasantly in the analog domain. In the digital domain the channels are totally separate and too clean and sterile lifeless sounding. They are not talking to each other It was like this with ny Marantz 8005 but the SA-10 gets halfway there." ___________________________________________________________ Not so (or not so for him). On my digital I can make the dueling ping pong sound any way I wish through variably tuning it. This is the action of the playback system, not the recording. mg |
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Hi Mitch This thread is about talking without really walking, and the question, why fake it if you haven't really done it. I find the thread I pointed to as doing exactly that. I don't fault the OP or the participants. I simply ask, why do people in this hobby do the talking about things that they haven't truly explored, and then act as though they have experience? All of life is an us and them, until we actually "do". There is no good or bad in it, just talking vs walking. mg |
@michaelgreenaudio
Since starting this thread we have seen at least 50 threads that give testament to the OP.MG - The thread cited as an example in your most recent post is a BS effort to create a caste system where an elite group owns "expensive and ultra expensive gear" and are persecuted by those who do not own expensive gear and therefore cannot possibly understand. There are no examples of this given by the OP and I have called him out to provide specifics. Respectively, your thread here is not the same as the example thread since your premise has almost nothing to do with money and expensive gear. I suggest you not align your thread with that one. However, there is the similarity that both threads promote a premise of an "us and them" division among audiophiles. |
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As far as wire construction goes I can only comment on effects seen in industrial applications although as the main culprit is electrical and/or ground noise it could be audio relevant. With some of the AC drives we use and servo drives if the incorrect spec power cables are used it can be disastrous . Now installers have cheapened out and used under spec cabling and we always find it. Personally on inspection of the under spec and the correct spec cabling the only differences I can visually see are much different insulation and separation of the internal cable bundle. At the moment I have no idea if the wire itself is different in construction, say cast vs drawn etc. Gauge is same I know. Sounds like it could have a reference point with speaker cables, power cords and interconnect? |
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I am certainly not (rpt not) disparaging anyone who might have a debilitating or difficult condition like Autism or Asperger’s, the latter of which, by the way, is actually quite common, 37 Million or whatever, and usually not very difficult or debilitating and I’m not trying to start a fight, but the reason I even bring it is it’s interesting there are marked similarities between what we refer to as “audio nervosa” and (some of) the symptoms of Asperger’s, especially the loud, aggressive, repetitive, almost compulsive nature of many audiophiles’ posts on these and other fora, not to mention the obsessive and or compulsive nature of the hobby for some, whether is upgraditis or tweakaholiism. But in terms of sheer aggressiveness and repetition, can there be any better poster boy for the big A than Wolfie? I exclude myself, naturally. I’m pretty sure there is no name for the condition the symtom of which is the constant barrage of what about this, what about that? Oh, wait! That’s very repetitive! Bad news! Stalking probably isn’t a symptom but then again, I’m not a psychologist. |
I know people who have suffered with Aspergers Syndrome and other types of Autism themselves, and who have been through the trials of raising children afflicted with this stuff...I don't feel it's funny, or think it's inclusion as some sort of cynical comedy bit by Kaitty to make some ridiculous satirical point is anything other than insulting to these people, and utterly classless. What a creep. |
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At the end of the day the disposable income that you can throw at a system in your home, tweaked or tuned, needs only to sound good to you. If you find the system a pleasure to listen too then no one else should be able to tell you it doesn't sound as good as "X" or you didn't spend enough money. It should be all about creating a space that you immerse yourself in for a couple of hours and feel better than when you first went in. There are too many manufacturers out there that tell you that you can't reach audio Nirvana until you spend what waterfront costs in Miami Then again what the hell do I know I have only posted 19 times. |
elizabeth Isn’t the whole point of ’cast’ wire to remove the grain? Single crystal..I would think drawing wire then using a moving melt zone purification technique would clear all the grain (as an alternative to casting the wire. >>>>>Excellent question. Off the top of my head, totally guessing here, I’d say the grainless wire doesn’t sound as good as wire with grain - when the wire is in the *correct direction.* But I might be simplifying things too much. Here’s a 6 Moons review of various exotic cables, see what you think. We have had amorphous carbon cables for quite some time, how do they stack up? And the Teo Liquid Cables, of course, not sure if they are amorphous but they probably are. Graphene cables, anyone? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/interconnects/interconnects_3.html |
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In reality the grain in wood is not (rpt) not analogous to the “grain” in metal conductors. The grain in metal conductors is actually the symmetrical crystal structure of all natural metals and some other materials such as quartz and most mineral crystals. Because wood grain is usually oriented in *one plane* (not one direction) it has practically nothing whatsoever to do with why wire in cables and fuses is directional. The grain in wood in not directional itself, the wood exhibits directionality according to the *plane* of the grain, determined by how it is cut, a butcher block, for example, or the Mpingo disc. Cut that way on purpose. Capish? The directionality of wire is due to unavoidable *deformation* of the symmetrical crystal structure during manufacturing along the longitudinal axis of the wire. Like porcupine quills, it’s easier to rub them with the direction of the quills than against it. |
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Well Tom we have steaks on the grill, should I be cutting with or against the grain. I know it is not an audio topic, but I see a little room to repeat my question from a few months ago. Not to mention that this thread is diverse enough to absorb yet another topic. When making pizza, do you guys recommend putting oregano directly on the dough, on tomato sauce, or sprinkle on top once all other ingredients have been in place? I am always torn between those. |
Regarding Asperger's syndrome. "I skipped a few symptoms that didn’t seem appropriate here."Skipping (ignoring) parts of the constellation of symptoms commonly associated with suspected abnormality is not that prudent when attempting to establish (prove or disprove) a diagnosis. Considering all the symptoms may exclude said diagnosis as a possibility and point towards entirely different problem. The way it was presented in the post above is skewing approach to fit and support pre-determined statement. Not much harm on Talk but not walk thread, but reckless in real life. |
kosst_amojan @geoffkait I thought we talked about your psychological name calling already. I thought we agreed you would at least be creative enough to rotate through the mental illnesses in order to bring awareness to more of them. At least be creative, will you? Why’s it always Asperger’s? Are you well acquainted with it? >>>>>For your information: I mention Asperger’s occasionally on these threads for several reasons, the primary reason being some people, including your humble scribe, sometimes exhibit Asperger’s-like symptoms. Do they apply to you? You decide. Perhaps there is some connection between audio nervosa and Asperger’s. But I’m not a psychiatrist. Perhaps you know better than I. Below find major symptoms. I skipped a few symptoms that didn’t seem appropriate here. As for *wire directionality* I doubt you would be able to prove the negative. Asperger’s Symptom #1: Underdeveloped Social Skills Individuals with Asperger’s syndrome often have difficulty in social interaction. Asperger’s Symptom #3: Inability to Empathize Individuals with Asperger’s can often seem as if they are insensitive or uncaring towards others as they have issues providing socially acceptable responses when they interact with others. Asperger’s Symptom #4: Difficulty with Eye Contact Asperger’s Symptom #5: Restricted Interests Individuals with Asperger’s can have narrowed or restricted interests that are focused. It can be interests such as model building, drawing, video games, or more. The interests that they are so focused on provide a sense of security and comfort for them. Asperger’s Symptom #7: Literary Language Individuals with Asperger’s may have weaknesses in areas that uses nonliteral language such as humor, teasing, irony, and sarcasm. They have difficulty interpreting what others are saying and often take what the other person says as truth. Asperger’s Symptom #10: Unusual Communication and Speech While individuals with Asperger’s do not have any delay in acquiring language and speech, there can be abnormalities in their style of communication and speech. For example, there can be abrupt transitions, miscomprehension, literal interpretations, oddities in pitch, volume, intonation, and rhythm of their speech. There can also be echolalia which means that there is repetition of vocalizations. Their speech can be flat, unusually fast, jerky, or loud. |