T+A Class D Amps ( M200 or A200)?

I’m surprised that nobody has weighed on the merits or concerns raised by the idea of going with the Jeff Rowland 625 S2 (whether with the Eversolo A10 or the NAD M66 or with some other solid state pre-amp)….

Good discussion. Your focus seems to be on power amps, and they are certainly part of the equation, but I wonder if the right preamp might make the difference. I realize this is complicated given all the digital you have integrated already, but just throwing it out there. 

Totally appreciate that, thank you, @soix.   I do expect they would both be pretty sonically neutral. The other item on the scale in the M66’s favor (for me) is Bluesound. Probably not worth 3K on its own, though.  But if I were to go through with this, I would hope to do a bit better on price of the M66 via the used market or through “kindly” dealer trade-in concessions.

I really have no idea which is better, but all else equal I’d give the nod to the M66 as the more established brand and Dirac if you might use that.  That said, I doubt you’d be unhappy with either performance wise and the A10 is $3k cheaper, which in my world is material.

Thanks @prophet9 and @goodlistening64 ; very helpful to me.

  @soix, do you think, cost aside, that the eversolo dump-a10 is likely better than the NAD M66. The M66 has also gotten great reviews (e.g., https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-m66-streaming-preamplifier-measurements-page-2 )

 and has more functions than I will ever use. Pretty solid customer support room, at least based on their being very helpful when i had some very boneheaded questions when setting up the M33.

I am really resistant to the idea of getting DAC/Streamer separate from each other and even separate from the pre-amp. (I would even consider going the other way and skipping the pre-amp altogether by hooking up an amp directly to something like the Bluesound Icon, but that is probably heresy?)

Yeah the Icon is probably a good step below where you’d wanna go.  Unless you’re very space constrained I’m not sure why you’re hesitant toward a separate DAC and streamer, and most combo units come with some significant compromise either with performance or the app, or both.  Something like the HiFi Rose RS151 DAC/streamer with a good stereo preamp might work — preamps are important so if sound quality is paramount this might be worth considering.  If you’re really hell bent on combining everything including the preamp then the new Eversolo A10 looks promising with the significant caveat that their customer support is sub optimal should you ever need it, and especially with streamers it’s not uncommon at some point.  But here’s a good review fyi in case you might be interested…

https://soundnews.net/reviews/sources/eversolo-dmp-a10-review-feature-rich-great-sounding-and-incredibly-beautiful/

The Bluesound Node ICON is designed to directly hook up to an amp. It would be wise to use the balanced XLR outputs to do so, I am told.

That, in and of itself, is why I am considering purchasing the ICON, even though my interest in streaming is tepid. The apprehension is that it is highly unlikely that the DAC in the ICON will be better than the Yggy that I use. Also, the preamp- I would surmise- would be the weak link. Still, it sounds like fun and creates a hands-on utility of sorts that everyone can interact with easily. 

I use the NAD C298, which has the same Class D technology as what the OP uses. Hence, it would sound the same; sans the speaker differences, which are vast. 

My take is that the OP probably needs a 2  or 4 tube preamp to provide the flesh/tone/etc that others here in this thread describe. But, to each his own, I have to live with 30 feet speaker wire runs, so everyone has limitations as to what can be done - or what can be deemed plausible in a room environment.

I have had a pair of M200s as well as a single A200 for about 2 years now - ZERO regrets.

I used the M200s along with a pair of SPL M1000s to bi-amp the Sonus Faber Olympica Nova IIIs.

I have since changed speakers to the Diptyque DP140 MKII Panels, and tried them with the SPLs, but found the T+A M200s an almost perfect match.

Preamp by the way is a Matrix Audio MP-1.

My advice: Go for it!

There are many (and growing) manufacturers now that offer high quality Class D that I wasn't aware of when I started my search a couple years ago for Class D monos.

Really helpful and thoughtful posts @goldenways and @996turbo911 (nice car too!). Thank you.

And of course you are right, @goldenways about the ratio of potential listening hours to those at play for return shipping. I was just being honest about my behavior and that the hassle of the return would quite possibly influence my sense of how much i liked the amps once i had them installed. I could see convincing myself that it was a big improvement and worth keeping them. I might have a chance of being more neutral if I could audition a few different options in person, or even better with a local dealer who would help me with an in home try out, because for sure hearing it in my space with my speakers is not something that can be recreated at an audio show or a dealer’s showroom.

And @996turbo911 , fair question about Class D.  I am not 100% committed to class D; it’s more that after a lifetime with AB amps — the last 11+ years with the perfectly fine Parasound A21 with the P5 preamp — I am enjoying the M33’s sound and sure don’t mind that it is a lot lighter and runs cooler.  But ultimately, it is as many of you have said, I should really find a way to listen to more equipment.  As it has only been recently that I’ve had a lot of time to just be at home and listen to music, I was content with my Parasounds driving a pair of KEF R500s; so it’s just been that past year or so that I’ve really been focused on upgrading components to get even better, more life-like, more dynamic sound. I probably should just chill a bit and live with the M33 and the Epicons and the C399 and the Revels (they’ve only been with me for a few weeks!) and see if upgrades make sense.  The piece that is limiting from a pure performance perspective is that, even with help from Roon support, I have been having trouble getting Roon to be stable when playing in groups that mix WiFi and Ethernet wired components, despite putting my Roon server and the audio equipment on their own fiber based network (with most of it direct Ethernet connected); and that means, if i have to drop Roon, i am limited to BlueSound connectivity if I want to continue to have multi-room listening options, and given the way our home is constructed, and the way we live, that is pretty crucial. 

All that said, there is a used Jeff Rowland 625 2s power amp at a nearby dealer in great shape at a pretty tempting price and I will ask them to hook it up for me to hear, but then I run into the question of what pre-amp; given my BlueSound issue, would a new or used NAD M66 (i would trade in the c399 toward such a purchase)  be the way to go, or do i need to look elsewhere and figure out my multi-room issues after I’ve settled on the amp/pre-amp/streamer/DAC situation.  I am really resistant to the idea of getting DAC/Streamer separate from each other and even separate from the pre-amp. (I would even consider going the other way and skipping the pre-amp altogether by hooking up an amp directly to something like the Bluesound Icon, but that is probably heresy?)

Huge T+A fan and I enjoyed everything of theirs I have ever heard. I'll also agree with the above posts that this seems like a gamble for what could be a pretty minimal improvement. 

There are many other great options for amps outside the class D realm. Is there a reason you aren't exploring those many products? I know some people have issues with heat, power draw, size, whatever, but you didn't mention your reasoning or if you really are stuck on class D completely. I don't hate class D at all, just feel you might be limiting yourself by only looking in that direction.

Can not answer your question but if you can get your hands on the T+A, go for it. That’s really the best way to answer your question. IMO-the thing with auditioning is that it’s hard to know if it will actually work with your setup. It’s not your own system, You’re listening to someone else’s setup. There are so many variables - room, sources, cables, speakers and more. Chance of matching your set up to theirs is slim. Hearing them and taking home for trial would work. Hauling your speakers, sources and cables to dealer is impractical. There are plenty of people here who know what to look for when auditioning and knowledge to mentally calibrate to one’s own system and have had successful outcomes. 

As for shipping hassle, you’re going to spend many hours listening to your system for years to come. What’s a hour of hassle time? For shipping expense, it’s the cost of reducing risk that you may get into an amp that you are ultimately not happy with.

About the specs on the M200 and your needs, I can add no value.

On T+A, I’m hooked on the company, their engineering approach, the quality  of their builds and I do own their products. Other than their software on their streamers I happy. One experience that really put me in their camp was visiting their room at EXPONA 2022. Like most showrooms, it was loud and hard to judge anything, but I spoke with the owner, US sales rep and maybe the son. I just came away impressed by it all. That does not mean T+A will work for you but it certainly did for me.

I listened to the T+A amps and preamp.  It sounded excellent.  I’m leaning towards trying a Benchmark amp if I audition again.  I keep going back to my Rotel amp and preamp.  I love the sound and putting out 350 WPC at 4 ohms is plenty for my Revel M126Be and Arendal 1723 towers.  I may get more headspace but my heads already in a good place.  Suggest auditioning and deciding if it’s worth the investment.  It’s the only way you’ll know. 

All good points, thank you guys.

and @soix, you are right I would be pretty much throwing darts in a very dimly lit room at this point. I should figure out a way to go and hear more gear before i start buying stuff (even if it is returnable). The hassle factor in return shipping decreases the incentive to be strict about whether the item really is a meaningful upgrade. (That, plus placebo effect and confirmation bias.)

The M33 is no slouch so from that perspective it’s not too surprising you’re pretty happy overall with what you’re hearing.  But there’s a big difference between liking the sound being truly moved and captivated by it, and IME that’s the next level and what can be achieved with higher-end components.  It can be easy to be lulled into liking what you hear until you hear what’s possible with something much better, and then you’re not so happy anymore.  Just purely as an example, inserting something like this Gryphon Diablo integrated into your system would very likely be transformative on every level. 

 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbef10-gryphon-diablo-300-solid-state

But at this level it becomes highly personal and dependent on individual tastes/system synergy and only you can determine which components deliver the sound improvements you’re looking for.  I’m just stating the obvious that there is a much higher level out there and you should do some more research as to which components likely deliver the specific sound characteristics/improvements you’re looking for.  I’d also emphasize that everything matters a lot so plan on a better streamer, DAC, preamp/amp, and probably even cables.  What’s your budget, and are you looking for new or used?  Knowing that and having an idea of what you’re looking for you’ll at least get some good thoughts/ideas here to look into.  All that said, I don’t think throwing $$$ at the T+A amp is a good idea at this point as it’d be a crapshoot until you do more research as to what else is out there.  I would highly recommend traveling to some dealers/shows if at all possible to go hear for yourself and ideally demo components in your system.  Anyway, just my $0.02 FWIW.

Yeah well, it sure won't cost you anything to insert your m33 into the Revel room right now. Start there. But I'm worried that what you find lacking may just be the characteristics of D amps in general. Perhaps you could consider improving the dac instead. 

Thanks, @ericrhodes1 

you have articulated the reasons for my hesitation pretty well. Will the T+A sound better than the M33 in any material way if i am not upgrading anything else?  For a lot less $ i could trade in the c399 for a new m33 v2 to be used for the Epicons and put the OG m33 with the Revel 226Bes. 

Ooph, they’re both Eigentakt amps? And you’re hoping the monoblocks together with a better power supply and implementation will make an appreciable difference? Your ears are better than mine my friend. Spec wise, you may be right. But that sounds like a nearly lateral move to me (for both rooms). Don’t get me wrong, I love the Purufi Eigentakt amp. And I really doubt any GaNFET can best it (especially considering their price at even lower wattages) . Still a trial for the cost of shipping? Why not give it a try.

Let us know, 

Eric 

I don't mean to complicate the issue/question but if you have not considered the following for GaN amps I'd suggest you ad them to your list.

Orchard Audio, Class D Audio and LAIV Harmony.

@soix, thank you for trying to put your intuition and experience to work translating my inarticulate resort to “oomph” as being what I am missing.  I think though, I’m not as negative on the M33 as you suspect. I don’t think of the sound currently as anemic or thin, but it could be described as a touch too polite. So that is in line with your lacking ‘life/emotion” and “heft” concepts. Tonal density and color seem very good to me and I would say overall I am about 90% happy with the sound the speakers make. It is just a touch of crispness and maybe even authority lacking on the bass (say when a drum kick happens) and similarly on high treble like when a triangle is struck in a passage (flutes however sound great). (The M33 is also driving a REL T9/x sub.). Violins, Cellos and trumpets & sax all sound great; resonant and controlled. (Clarinet & piano sound especially good: clear, natural. Very much a “you are there” sort of experience. I certainly don’t want, you are right, harness or over brightness or any thing that could be described as “aggressive”.

I started down this path not because i am all that unhappy with the Epicon 6/M33 combo, but because I feel that the 226Bes deserve a fuller sound than the C399 is giving them. (Here one gets closer to missing life/emotion, while still not being anemic.)

The C399 has the same DAC and streamer technology that the M33 has, but an inferior (while still perfectly solid mid-Fi) amplifier.  I have often heard of the M33 referred to as mid-Fi, and maybe it is — the upper end of mid-FI perhaps? — but the C399 amp is more so. I think the M33’s coloring (mild as it is) and polish and its better bass control and clearer, more shimmery high frequencies would improve how the 226Bes sound. (Fortunately, at least the C399 does not bring out any shrillness or over assertiveness in those Beryllium tweeters.) The 226Bes are easier to drive than the Epicons:  8 ohms nominal impedance and 90 dB sensitivity (at 2.83 volts at 1meter); so, that also made me think that the M33 might shine more with them.

And all of that is what lead me to thinking about the T+A M200s — same very good amp technology as the M33, but with some the fancier, better high voltage input stage and proprietary power supply. (And just the potential benefit that separation of the amps into 2 mono blocks offers.) And same watts per channel.

Hope that helps some.

You’ve got nice speakers and sounds like the M33 isn’t really doing it for you.  Reading between the lines it sounds like you’re feeling like the sound is a little anemic/thin sounding, lacks some life/emotion and could use more heft, weight, tonal density/color but you don’t want to sacrifice the detail in the treble while avoiding harshness/brightness.  Does that sound close to what you’re looking for?

Thanks, @soix.

I had my concerns about that, but figured i might try it initially while i search for an alternative. I am also wrong about the nominal impedance of the Epicon 6s; it is 5 ohms not 6; even more of a concern about power/voltage.

taking the NAD C399 that currently runs the Revels and using it just as a pre-amp/streamer/DAC (which it is pretty well suited to, despite lacking balanced outputs) and for a pair of T+A M200 mono blocks for the Epicons.

I didn’t read your post closely enough before I responded — my bad.  You do not want to pair the C399 in any way to a good amp as it’s a total mismatch from a performance perspective and will be a huge bottleneck.  

@soix, thanks for that advice. Both AGD and Tempo have escaped my radar. I would be happy to spend less!

To answer your question, the Characteristics I’d like are, very generally, to keep the neutrality of the M33 but if possible add a touch more oomph (for lack of a better descriptor), even though the M33 is 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms, there is something about the 6 ohm & 88dbs sensitivity Epicons that makes me feel like they could use some more power and I am purely guessing  that the higher voltage T+A s might create a bit more crispness across all frequencies, without moving into harshness or sterility. 

Really depends on what specific improvements you’re looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you if you could share that critical info.  There doesn’t look to be much by way of reputable reviews out there on these amps so a bit of an unknown.  For a Class D alternative I’d take a look at the AGD Audion monoblocks or Tempo di GaN stereo amps as they’re more well reviewed and more of a known quantity.  They’re also quite a bit cheaper, and they can be easily upgraded by the user when technology improvements are introduced (and they have been), which is very nice — not sure if that’s the case with the T+A amps.  AGD offers a 14-day return period less shipping and credit card fees.