So glad you caught my lack of clarity on what we really did with the wiring. I've never heard of or thought of putting 2 ground (-) wires in the 0ohm terminal. So your right, it's what we did with the wires that made the difference. I'm still thrilled about what we did. Unconventional, clever and resourceful. I didn't spend a dime (I had some extra cheap cable wire lying around) and I'm not adding any "tone control" tweaks like interconnects that are known for being "lean" (not that I'm against that, I'm still going to do that if it's still needed). I'd say that this tweak was the best one to make at this point, other then room acoustics. But even then, I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want to properly allocate the amps ohm output.
In regards to EQ, I completely agree with Al. All of our ideals in the chain are just that - our made up ideals. The fact is that before we even decide on which song to play there have already been endless, less then ideal breaks in the "ideal" chain (ie the recording process). I played with the idea of trying to keep everything neutral for the sake of hi fi and all that. But I realized that who cares? It's your sound, your music. If you like boomy bass, work towards more boomy bass. If you like unnatural "sparkliness", then go for it. If you want to hear the recording completely as it is, then go for complete neutrality. For me, I'd rather enjoy (based on my personal tastes) my music that I enjoy, not dependant on how well the recording was. I have no control over how they recorded but I do have control over my setup and making it sound as I like. |
11-10-13: Deetothevee
But I do know that the changes from biwiring were immediate and impressive ....
To be sure it's clear to others who may read this, as I see it the improvement was almost certainly due mainly to the use of different amplifier taps for the low and high frequency sections of the speaker (which in turn was made possible by biwiring), not to biwiring in itself. One thing that I toyed with before the biwiring was my itunes equalizer. It definitely reduced bloatness in the bass. I'm no expert, but it doesn't feel right to have all this effort and money in a hifi setup and only to lower frequency responses on an EQ which alters an artists intentions. As I heard "less bass" it was satisfying at first but then I realize that I've, in some cases, eliminated sounds of a piece so that it could be appropriate to my rig and environment. Is my thinking correct? Or is this what I'm essentially doing when I make tweaks to achieve my current goals? I think this gets into the philosophy of it all so would love your opinions on EQ. Good question. Unfortunately I don't think that there is a general purpose answer, as there are many variables involved. Including differences in the quality of the equalization function, and the fact that on many and perhaps most recordings the artist's intent is already compromised by less than optimal mic'ing, mixing, overprocessing, and generally poor engineering. And there usually tends to be a tradeoff between making the (sonically) best recordings sound their best, and making average recordings sound as good as possible. Also, IMO/IME introducing equalization into the signal path, if it is not implemented to a very high standard, can easily have downsides (such as loss of clarity and definition) that outweigh the benefits. FWIW, my own philosophy is that in general the less processing that is introduced into the signal path the better. And if that means that mediocre recordings are reproduced "warts and all," or that acoustic anomalies in the room or system can't be addressed in a convenient and inexpensive manner, so be it. Although I have an open (and intrigued) mind with respect to some of the relatively recent developments in DSP (digital signal processing)-based room correction products, such as the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core (around $1100), and (at vastly higher price points) the Trinnov products. IMO. Best regards, -- Al |
I've played a lot with the different modes since I've had the amp. I've always loved the triode mode. The linear mode does help the bass issues a bit. But not enough. I've used the triode mode as the benchmark for each tweak I've made so far (speaker positioning and bi wiring). I still check how it affects linear mode but my goal is to get to a happy place with triode. Plus since the bass issue is slightly worse in triode it was a better place to start notice improvements as my discernment skills are developing.
The other thing that has been changed before I made the biwire tweak is the tubes. They are now el34 wc (svetlana) compared to the stock Primaluna el34's. They came with my purchase of the amp so I'm not sure if they are broken in yet. I assumed they were but I should check into that because that would make things confusing ;). But I do know that the changes from biwiring were immediate and impressive regardless.
One thing that I toyed with before the biwiring was my itunes equalizer. It definitely reduced bloatness in the bass. I'm no expert, but it doesn't feel right to have all this effort and money in a hifi setup and only to lower frequency responses on an EQ which alters an artists intentions. As I heard "less bass" it was satisfying at first but then I realize that I've, in some cases, eliminated sounds of a piece so that it could be appropriate to my rig and environment. Is my thinking correct? Or is this what I'm essentially doing when I make tweaks to achieve my current goals? I think this gets into the philosophy of it all so would love your opinions on EQ. |
11-10-13: Newbee
Al, FWI you can change modes on the fly without risk so A/B comparisons are easy. Thanks, Newbee. Since the design of your amp has a lot of commonality with the design of the OP's, I'll defer to your comment. Best regards, -- Al |
Al, FWI you can change modes on the fly without risk so A/B comparisons are easy. The difference is that in triode mode the top end is rolled and the mid-range is somewhat sweeter. You can hear the decrease in power output. The change is not so much different from other amps with mode switching, IME. And I doubt that this will solve any of the OP's issues with the bass, although it will make edgy recordings far more listenable. |
Glad I was able to help. One more thing to try, if you haven't already, would be running the amp in triode mode, rather than ultralinear mode (which according to the manual the amp automatically defaults to when turned on). I don't know if with your particular speakers and setup triode mode would produce results that are better, worse, or just different than ultralinear (although I'd certainly expect the results to be different), but it's something that's easy enough to try. The manual indicates that the mode can be switched via the remote control.
When you do that, keep in mind that the power capability of the amp in triode mode is just 18 watts, compared to 36 watts in ultralinear mode (although that is just a 3 db difference; not a large amount subjectively). So on material containing high volume peaks, especially in the bass region, be careful not to turn the volume control up beyond the point where distortion starts to become obvious. That would signify the onset of clipping (i.e., the point where the amp is being asked to deliver more power than it is capable of). Severely clipped waveforms, which will sound very distorted, can damage speakers.
Also, although the manual doesn't say this, IMO it would be prudent to not change between the two modes while music is playing.
Regards,
-- Al |
I think what makes sense right now is to get used to this new sound. Then consider my next option. What I've noticed so far is that the bass issue has been removed at the 9 o'clock volume position and only starts to become a problem at nearly the 10 o'clock position. Which in my room is quite loud. So this has definitely improved my bass issue and I feel confident that I can manage this issue with a few more tweaks. Id love to try room accoustics as I think it is a must for any situation but I can't do that just yet because I'm unclear with my living situation. So I think a rca interconnect might be the next thing to consider. |
I'd use the same wire for both myself at this stage jut because that will keep things simpler. You can always experiment with whatever variations you want from there later. |
Ya it's sounding good my friends! I'm thinking of which speaker cables to get for each frequency range. Would it make sense to go for a "lean and tight" cable for low frequency and a sweet high frequency cable for the highs. In other words ask myself what I want most out of the two frequencies. Or would you guys recommend using the same cable for both ? |
|
Brilliant, AL. Looking at the impedance curve, your solution makes so much sense. |
RESULTS! I'm very happy (although maybe too soon) that I can report very significant improvements jn bass control and articulation! I want to give it time to prove that I'm not just hearing things but I have it a little louder then normal and I hear a more balanced sound. I did exactly what Al recommended with bi-wiring. Took some work but was very worth it. Wow I'm listening now and am floored at how much more balanced my sound is. Wow!! Thank you so much everyone and especially Al for supporting me and going way above and beyond. I've learned a ton.
You guys are incredible. I'll keep you posted after more listening time. |
Deetothevee, the link in your last post requires a Dropbox signin. It apparently needs to be done differently for the pix to be visible to the general public.
Regards,
-- Al |
Pics! Thank you thank you. View the 2 pics in this link that show how I've set it up for one speaker so far. I'm going to get back to it for the second. Let me know if this is what you're talking about.
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Set%20up
PS. I was actually using the 8ohm setting the whole time so even more chance of improvement now.
I was able to fit 2 wires in the 0ohm banana plug. Also, I'm just using some standard wire that I had lying around to try this. I kept the slightly better cable for the low frequency and used the standard for the highs. |
I was looking at some speaker cables that were " bi-wired". They were one set of cable with one end having the normal - & + ends and the other being bi-wired, having the 4 ends. This would not be utilizing the advantages of what you're suggesting (as far as I'm understanding). Correct. As I mentioned earlier, you need 4 independent connections at each end. I am already using the 4ohm in my current setup. Does that mean it won't help the bass issue? Or will it still help because the low impedence power will be more focused on the lower frequency instead of shared with the highs? Also, will this put more stress on my amp, making it put out power from both? Anything to be concerned about? Given the impedance characteristics of your particular speakers, changing from having both sections of the speaker driven from the 4 ohm tap to having its low frequency section driven from the 4 ohm tap and its high frequency section driven from the 8 ohm tap will alter the overall frequency balance in the direction you want. Obviously there are no guarantees as to how much of a difference it will make, considering the other factors that are contributing, and there are no guarantees that it won't have some unpredictable sonic downsides. But it seems to me to be well worth trying. You won't overstress the amp by doing this, or cause any other problems I can foresee. As I'm sure you realize everything should be turned off when connections are being worked with, and obviously you should make sure that any connections to adjacent terminals are not in contact with each other. Also, a tube amp should not be operated without a speaker being connected to it. Please let me know how I can put two wires in the 0 ohm terminal. Only thing I can think of is if I take out the banana plug and twist the other wire into it and then put back the banana plug. You can probably judge that better than I can, based on the physical dimensions that are involved. But a good approach that would appear certain to work would be to use a banana plug such as this one, which can accept up to an 8 gauge (VERY thick) wire into its rear opening, and up to a 12 gauge wire into its side opening (or perhaps vice versa; it looks like the description may have an error). (Keep in mind that the lower the gauge number, the thicker the wire). You would want to have a wire stripper to be able to strip off the insulation cleanly, something like this. Some of the other listings here might provide additional possibilities. Good luck! Regards, -- Al |
Al - I just had some time to re-read all of your comments and looking at the figure 1 link you posted. Wow! Thank you so much for looking into this. I'm floored at how much knowledge you have on this. It took me a bit to understand it even a bit. It makes a lot of sense. I'm excited to try this. Just waiting for an answer on how to actually put two wires into 0ohm. Maybe its just as simple as I think. Waiting to hear back. Thanks again !!
O, I am already using the 4ohm in my current setup. Does that mean it won't help the bass issue? Or will it still help because the low impedence power will be more focused on the lower frequency instead of shared with the highs? Also, will this put more stress on my amp, making it put out power from both? Anything to be concerned about? |
AL - I was looking at some speaker cables that were " bi-wired". They were one set of cable with one end having the normal - & + ends and the other being bi-wired, having the 4 ends. This would not be utilizing the advantages of what you're suggesting (as far as I'm understanding). Please let me know how I can put two wires in the 0 ohm terminal. Only thing I can think of is if I take out the banana plug and twist the other wire into it and then put back the banana plug. IS this what I'm supposed to do?
Sorry for the ignorance, this is all new to me. I don't want to ruin any of this equipment. |
Al - thanks again. So my issue is that my amp terminals are banana so how can I put 2wires into the 0ohm terminal? |
Ok I think I got it. So the only terminal that will have more then one wire would be the 0 terminal at back of amp. Correct? Yes! To be sure it's clear, let's just consider the situation where you are NOT using cables that are specifically intended for biwiring. You would have four ordinary speaker cables, two for each channel. On each channel, one wire of one of those two cables would connect the - (0 ohm) amp terminal to the speaker's - low frequency terminal. The other wire of that same cable would connect the 4 ohm amp terminal to the speaker's + low frequency terminal. One wire of the other of those two cables would connect the same - amp terminal to the speaker's - high frequency terminal. The other wire of that cable would connect the 8 ohm amp terminal to the speaker's + high frequency terminal. Alternatively, the same thing could be accomplished with biwire cables, which would provide 4 wires in the cable for each channel, but ONLY if it were the kind of biwire cable that provides 4 independent connections at both ends (rather than just providing 2 connections at the amp end, as many of them do). BE SURE to remove the jumpers on the back of the speaker that connect the low and high frequency terminals to each other, when and if you try this. I don't think any damage would occur if you failed to do this, but the sonic results would not be as intended. Regards, -- Al |
Ok I think I got it. So the only terminal that will have more then one wire would be the 0 terminal at back of amp. Correct? |
Almarg-- thank you. I've read your post 3 times. It got a bit clearer but I'm still confused. I'm not clear enough to try it yet. Each speaker cable has a - & + wire. When you say to connect one of the pair of wires, do you mean both - & + ends of the same "speaker wire" into said terminal? (Or even both ends (2of4) of a biwire) |
Those Ushers are very difficult to drive and control. They may go loud easily but to control them you need a lot of current which the Prima Luna cannot provide. Look at some nice SS amplification like Symphonic Line or Naim. They are known to be very musical amps while still controlling the drivers like mad. |
IMO neither changing speaker cables nor biwiring would in themselves be likely to result in significant improvement, given particularly the short lengths of your speaker cables (most relevant cable parameters and most cable effects are proportional to length), and given that cabling is clearly not among the major root causes of the problem. Nevertheless, I strongly urge you try biwiring, but in a certain way. Let me explain. What I suggest that you try is as follows: 1)Remove the jumpers on the rear of the speakers that connect the terminals of the high frequency driver to the terminals of the low frequency driver. 2)Connect the "0 ohm" output terminal of the amp (which is referred to on many other amps as either the common, -, negative, or black terminal) to the - terminal of the speaker's low frequency driver, for the corresponding channel. 3)Using the other wire in that 2-wire speaker cable pair, connect the 4 ohm output terminal of the amp to the + terminal of the speaker's low frequency driver. 4)Using another 2-wire speaker cable, or the other 2-wire pair that may be included in a bi-wire cable, connect the "0 ohm" terminal of the amp to the - terminal of the speaker's high frequency driver. 5)Using the other wire in that 2-wire pair, connect the 8 ohm (not 4 ohm) output terminal of the amp to the + terminal of the speaker's high frequency driver. In other words, you would be driving the high frequency part of the speaker from the 8 ohm tap, and the low frequency part of the speaker from the 4 ohm tap. A major reason that the bass heaviness is evident with the Prima Luna to a much greater extent than with your former HK amp, which I presume was solid state, is the interaction of the tube-based Prima Luna's relatively high output impedance with the speaker's impedance variation as a function of frequency (see Figure 1 here), the speaker impedance being generally high in the deep bass region, and also including a very large peak in the 50 to 90 Hz area, while reaching much lower values in parts of the upper midrange and treble regions. Using the lower output impedance of the amp's 4 ohm tap for the low frequency driver, while using the 8 ohm tap for the high frequency driver, will significantly alter that interaction in the direction you seek. Regards, -- Al |
Ya I totally agree with all of this. Based on my reading, it seems that an upgrade on the right type of cables (ones that are tighter and leaner) should help the situation, plus the bewiring would help too. I don't know anything about removing stock jumpers on the speaker terminals of my amp and all of that.
I changed the tubes which I'll get to in a min...
I agree that speaker placement and room acoustic treatment are my best, closest to source of problem, options (other then changing my amp or speakers). I just got the amp and really love the speakers so I'm leaving that as a last case scenario, but will try to avoid spending too much with an inevitable case of having to replace the amp. The speakers are already out pretty far from the wall without it looking pretty weird being half way in the room. So room treatment seems to be the next best thing. Although there is a possibility of me moving within a year.
So last night I switched out my primaluna EL34 power tubes for some svetlana EL34 WC tubes that came with my used purchase. I've only listened for a couple of hours. It seems that these are making the issue a bit worse, but that's not conclusive just yet. I need a bit more time to listen. Does this sound characteristic of these tubes?
PS. What are your collective thoughts on DNM resin and Coincident RCA's and how they're known for a more lean sound? |
"Biwire to resolve bass issues.."
Agree, Mapman. This is not the root of the problem; spkr placement and room acoustics are the most plausible cause.
But since the OP is looking for an upgrade in cables as well, some used Kimbers would improve definition in his spkrs. |
Biwire to resolve bass issues in this case seems like a total potshot and a bandaid at best. |
Biwiring does sound better in some situations, really depends on the amp and the crossovers in the spkrs, might be worth a try since the amp would be driving the bass and the high loads separately. Sorry, don't know about prices; Google some Kimber retailers?
A double-run would require 2 cables hooked up to same tap at the amp, then one cable runs to the tweeter, 2nd cable runs to the lower bass terminal. IMO, this probably would sound better than a single cable. But, you would need to buy 4 cables and be able to wire them both to the amp terminal, meaning using bare wire or spades.
I think this is what mattmiller meant.
PS...In both cases, you would be removing the stock jumpers on the speaker terminals which would be beneficial. |
Oops posted again by accident.
Ya I'm still not clear in what mattmiller is referring to. Although the biwiring seems like something that might help my boomy bass. There is a pair of kimber 8tc biwire banana plug wires for sale. He's asking $250. Good deal? |
Mattmiller- just learned that bi-wire is an end piece to the speaker wire. Sweet. There is one listed on another listing site but it's 2.5 meters long I need less then half of that. How is the bi-wire end attached? Something a layman can do or is it best to have a pro do it? Another option is I pick up this cable and cut it down and sell the remaining. Just not sure who can do that for me. |
Biwire is only possible with a bi-wire capable speaker. 2 sets of terminals are on the back of the speaker, one pair for the woofer, and one pair for the tweeter. I see your spkrs have these.
At the amp end there is one L and R connector and at the spkr end there are 2 pairs. You drive the tweeter and the woofer separately depending on the load needed for the highs and the bass. At each one of these separate pair of terminals, the LOAD seen by the amp is different; bass uses more current. In a traditional setup with only a L/R at the spkr, the internal crossover distributes the signal to both drivers. Some believe sound is better when woofer and tweet are wired separately.
I think Mattmiller is talking about a double-run from amp to spkr terminals (2 separate cables for each spkr) |
Mattmiller- just learned that bi-wire is an end piece to the speaker wire. Sweet. There is one listed on another listing site but it's 2.5 meters long I need less then half of that. How is the bi-wire end attached? Something a layman can do or is it best to have a pro do it? Another option is I pick up this cable and cut it down and sell the remaining. Just not sure who can do that for me. |
When you say morrow audio cables do you mean both interconnect & speaker wire? I found a decent deal on kimber hero rca. |
Abuck - thank you I'll check then out. How about the rest of the frequency?
Mattmiller - why those specific kimbers? Help me understand this double speaker wire thing. How do I do that with my primaluna dialog one? It only has a 0ohm and 4ohm or 8ohm connector for left and right speaker. How can I use 2 speaker wires for each speaker? I thought biwiring was if you want to power each speaker with its own power amp. |
I read that the Coincident CST interconnects were a less bass heavy cable so I bought a set. They work well in my system. |
Morrow Audio cables, OR 2 runs of Kimber 8tc...your speakers have 2 sets of inputs so I would run 2 sets of cables per side for best sound stage and bass definition. For a few hundred dollars or less you can get these cables. It will make a HUGE difference. Happy listening. |
Mattmiller - Which cables would you recommend? Here is a review of my systems strengths/weaknesses.
Sweet midrange - 90%
Soundstage - 65%
High end detail - 75%
Controlled tight bass - 40% (this might be much better with new speaker placement)
Realism - 80%
Dynamics - 80% |
Cables are the TONE CONTROLS . It is the biggest factor in improving your system. |
Thanks guys! The amp was widely recommended by many people as a good fit for these speakers. But you make some good points. I think were all on the same page that if I make some tweaks there is a good chance I can make good of the situation. |
"The speaker measurements shown in the stereofile link posted by Samhar show that the speakers have sensitivity of 85db coupled with 4 ohm and -41 deg phase angle at around 2k Hz."
Yea, as I mentioned above, I do not think the amp/speaker match is ideal for best bass quality possible, especially at higher volumes, and this is probably a good indicator, but hopefully getting the setup tweaked first buys enough to make things work.
ICs may help also, but an optimal amp/speaker match is usually one of the things that pays biggest dividends over time, as does getting a handle on speaker setup and room acoustics in general. |
"Mapman - what made you recommend the DNM reson ic's? I've been reading about them and of course, mixed reviews. "
"And right now I would like a little less bass, maybe a little more detail and I always want more sweetness in the midrange (but without the expense of anything else at this point) and soundstage."
DNM is one of my preferred ICs that I use a lot, so I can recommend them.
The design is quite minimalist and unique, which has some advantages that I think could play well in your case as described.
They are very balanced top to bottom, quite detailed. SOundstage is also quite good accordingly.
Bass is just right on my system with those. Towards teh leaner side of things but articulate and muscular. Getting the bass right help expose details that can be masked otherwise.
They are also uniquely coherent top to bottom, meaning that the parts of the music come together in very natural and fulfilling manner.
One way that all this plays together well is I am able to understand vocals in most recordings better with these than any others I use. There is usually no mistaking the ability to understand what the human voice is saying or not in a recording. Plus being able to greatly increases the pleasure of listening IMHO. When voices come through loud and clear, that's a very good omen for all the rest, which can be harder to judge accurately.
Plus they are not expensive and can be had for not much, especially used. |
Maybe the root of the problem is not the bass frequencies. The speaker measurements shown in the stereofile link posted by Samhar show that the speakers have sensitivity of 85db coupled with 4 ohm and -41 deg phase angle at around 2k Hz.
This would suggest that your amp may have difficulties with this frequency. Since you suggest that you like mid-range, you maybe increasing the volume to make-up for the amp's shortcoming and in the process increasing the sound level of the low frequencies.
Cables won't help, speaker placement will to some extent but it may not be enough. |
Maybe I should test the 8 ohm selection on the amp. |
Mapman - what made you recommend the DNM reson ic's? I've been reading about them and of course, mixed reviews. |
Lowrider, ya makes total sense. I can do that now, but maybe the gliders will make it a little easier, plus it is supposed to help the tightness of bass. When things are easier you're more likely to do it so it might make a big difference. |
Deetothevee, once you have found a spkr position that works, you can have a listening session and then push the spkrs back toward the wall when SHE gets home. I'm single, and my spkrs are out into the room, but when I have company over, they're back against the wall. |
Mapman - haha ya I know! Gotta provide balance to all ;) I'm looking into these DNM Reson interconnects |
Thank you Lowrider! Those gliders look neat. I'm definitely going to consider them. Sounds like they'd help my bass issue too. |
Try dnm reson ics from source to amp for nice balance top to bottom and lots of clarity through the midrange. |
" I love hi-fi but it's not my life, I still want it to look like a home."
Tell me you did not just say that!
This is audiogon. Do you realize the kind of characters here who are just now reading that? 😚 |
Haha...well that's the idea, we'll see how she responds. I can already tell a big difference. Placing the speakers 3 ft away from the wall would be rediculous. They'd be in the middle of the room.
I'm thinking with some acoustic treatments this will really be taken care of. I may be getting ahead of myself so we'll see how it responds tomorrow at higher levels. If the improvements remain at higher volume, and she's ok with the new positioning, I think I can chip away at this with all of the other suggestions and it would solve the problem We'll see. Any more ideas would always help.
I could use some guidance with cables. From what I gather, each cable has a different sound signature. People think that "transparency" is the goal, but I don't fall into that camp. There is so much that affects sound from the moment the artist opens his mouth or plays an instrument so I've accepted that fact and all I care about is what I like. And right now I would like a little less bass, maybe a little more detail and I always want more sweetness in the midrange (but without the expense of anything else at this point) and soundstage. If I had to give grades to those categories it would be ...
Sweet midrange - 90%
Soundstage - 65%
High end detail - 75%
Controlled tight bass - 40% (this might be much better with new speaker placement)
Realism - 80%
Dynamics - 80%
Of course if you asked me this a few months ago they'd be higher ;) |
