Al - thanks again. So my issue is that my amp terminals are banana so how can I put 2wires into the 0ohm terminal? |
Thank you Lowrider! Those gliders look neat. I'm definitely going to consider them. Sounds like they'd help my bass issue too. |
Mapman - haha ya I know! Gotta provide balance to all ;) I'm looking into these DNM Reson interconnects |
Thank you everyone! In regards to positioning, I can play with toe in some more and see if that makes a difference. But I'm very limited in changing positioning, this set up is in my living room in my condo with my lady. It's already a blessing she's ok with having the primaluna on display on top of our fireplace unit. Needless to say, changing positioning is not an option.
I actually have a set of Sovtek tubes that I haven't tried yet that came with the amp. I'll have to check what kind they are.
My stands are 24 inches high. I plan to eventually get the RWS 708 Usher stands which should tighten the bass and is adjustable.
Great ideas!!
Mattmiller -
Are those brands you mentioned known for reducing bass? I do love sweet midrange which is why I got the speakers and amp. So I don't want to lose that. I like more bass but just not too much. Also, what are your thoughts on Audioquest products? SO you think transparent cables is my answer? Not looking for cables that "reduce" bass?
You mentioned bi-wiring. Isn't that only possible when you have 2 amps? I have an integrated. |
Here are pics of my setup. I can not move the speakers. After a lot of moving around this is where my lady and I agree to have everything.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p85esxsugw5svb4/Y_FSpWNMv1 |
Samhar:
I'm guessing this is what you were referring to from the review you posted:
"I mostly listened to the Be-718s in my smaller (9' by 15' by 7.5'), acoustically treated listening room, but I did set them up as well in my larger (13' by 25' by 9') main room...They locked in with the smaller room amazingly well, not only "disappearing," ...
...20" from the front wall and 19" from the sidewalls. That left about 4.5' between the speakers and put them 9' from my listening position."
This kind of positioning is just not going to happen for me. Unless I put them against my window which is just not an option for us. It has to fit our life, not be our life. With that in mind, I'm open to other suggestions. |
Mapman:
Hahaha...you guys just don't quit. I don't want to move the speakers because I like the way it looks. I love hi-fi but it's not my life, I still want it to look like a home. When I have a dedicated room I can do that. |
Thanks Newbee.
I just brought out my speakers about 6 inches and toed them in heavy, and yes, it did help a lot with the bass. It actually doesn't look so bad. Let's see what she thinks. But wow, if the only thing I get out of this is to hear what it should sound like, it will help me moving forward.
I could get used to how this looks :) We'll see what she thinks. |
Mattmiller: What is Morrow skr cable? |
Samhar: Any suggestions with wire? I'm new to cables. How should I start? |
Hmm, not a bad idea. I currently have the speakers 20" away from the wall and toed in. It's helping a lot. I'm listening at low levels because its late. Tomorrow I'll see how it sounds at higher levels. I actually dont mind the look of it. The lady hasn't actually notices yet. If she's ok with it I'm leaving it! We'll see what's next. This just may have solved at least 50% maybe 80% of my problem. |
Pictures of Setup - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p85esxsugw5svb4/Y_FSpWNMv1 |
Haha...well that's the idea, we'll see how she responds. I can already tell a big difference. Placing the speakers 3 ft away from the wall would be rediculous. They'd be in the middle of the room.
I'm thinking with some acoustic treatments this will really be taken care of. I may be getting ahead of myself so we'll see how it responds tomorrow at higher levels. If the improvements remain at higher volume, and she's ok with the new positioning, I think I can chip away at this with all of the other suggestions and it would solve the problem We'll see. Any more ideas would always help.
I could use some guidance with cables. From what I gather, each cable has a different sound signature. People think that "transparency" is the goal, but I don't fall into that camp. There is so much that affects sound from the moment the artist opens his mouth or plays an instrument so I've accepted that fact and all I care about is what I like. And right now I would like a little less bass, maybe a little more detail and I always want more sweetness in the midrange (but without the expense of anything else at this point) and soundstage. If I had to give grades to those categories it would be ...
Sweet midrange - 90%
Soundstage - 65%
High end detail - 75%
Controlled tight bass - 40% (this might be much better with new speaker placement)
Realism - 80%
Dynamics - 80%
Of course if you asked me this a few months ago they'd be higher ;) |
Lowrider, ya makes total sense. I can do that now, but maybe the gliders will make it a little easier, plus it is supposed to help the tightness of bass. When things are easier you're more likely to do it so it might make a big difference. |
Mapman - what made you recommend the DNM reson ic's? I've been reading about them and of course, mixed reviews. |
Maybe I should test the 8 ohm selection on the amp. |
Thanks guys! The amp was widely recommended by many people as a good fit for these speakers. But you make some good points. I think were all on the same page that if I make some tweaks there is a good chance I can make good of the situation. |
Mattmiller - Which cables would you recommend? Here is a review of my systems strengths/weaknesses.
Sweet midrange - 90%
Soundstage - 65%
High end detail - 75%
Controlled tight bass - 40% (this might be much better with new speaker placement)
Realism - 80%
Dynamics - 80% |
Abuck - thank you I'll check then out. How about the rest of the frequency?
Mattmiller - why those specific kimbers? Help me understand this double speaker wire thing. How do I do that with my primaluna dialog one? It only has a 0ohm and 4ohm or 8ohm connector for left and right speaker. How can I use 2 speaker wires for each speaker? I thought biwiring was if you want to power each speaker with its own power amp. |
When you say morrow audio cables do you mean both interconnect & speaker wire? I found a decent deal on kimber hero rca. |
Mattmiller- just learned that bi-wire is an end piece to the speaker wire. Sweet. There is one listed on another listing site but it's 2.5 meters long I need less then half of that. How is the bi-wire end attached? Something a layman can do or is it best to have a pro do it? Another option is I pick up this cable and cut it down and sell the remaining. Just not sure who can do that for me. |
Mattmiller- just learned that bi-wire is an end piece to the speaker wire. Sweet. There is one listed on another listing site but it's 2.5 meters long I need less then half of that. How is the bi-wire end attached? Something a layman can do or is it best to have a pro do it? Another option is I pick up this cable and cut it down and sell the remaining. Just not sure who can do that for me. |
Oops posted again by accident.
Ya I'm still not clear in what mattmiller is referring to. Although the biwiring seems like something that might help my boomy bass. There is a pair of kimber 8tc biwire banana plug wires for sale. He's asking $250. Good deal? |
Ya I totally agree with all of this. Based on my reading, it seems that an upgrade on the right type of cables (ones that are tighter and leaner) should help the situation, plus the bewiring would help too. I don't know anything about removing stock jumpers on the speaker terminals of my amp and all of that.
I changed the tubes which I'll get to in a min...
I agree that speaker placement and room acoustic treatment are my best, closest to source of problem, options (other then changing my amp or speakers). I just got the amp and really love the speakers so I'm leaving that as a last case scenario, but will try to avoid spending too much with an inevitable case of having to replace the amp. The speakers are already out pretty far from the wall without it looking pretty weird being half way in the room. So room treatment seems to be the next best thing. Although there is a possibility of me moving within a year.
So last night I switched out my primaluna EL34 power tubes for some svetlana EL34 WC tubes that came with my used purchase. I've only listened for a couple of hours. It seems that these are making the issue a bit worse, but that's not conclusive just yet. I need a bit more time to listen. Does this sound characteristic of these tubes?
PS. What are your collective thoughts on DNM resin and Coincident RCA's and how they're known for a more lean sound? |
Almarg-- thank you. I've read your post 3 times. It got a bit clearer but I'm still confused. I'm not clear enough to try it yet. Each speaker cable has a - & + wire. When you say to connect one of the pair of wires, do you mean both - & + ends of the same "speaker wire" into said terminal? (Or even both ends (2of4) of a biwire) |
Ok I think I got it. So the only terminal that will have more then one wire would be the 0 terminal at back of amp. Correct? |
AL - I was looking at some speaker cables that were " bi-wired". They were one set of cable with one end having the normal - & + ends and the other being bi-wired, having the 4 ends. This would not be utilizing the advantages of what you're suggesting (as far as I'm understanding). Please let me know how I can put two wires in the 0 ohm terminal. Only thing I can think of is if I take out the banana plug and twist the other wire into it and then put back the banana plug. IS this what I'm supposed to do?
Sorry for the ignorance, this is all new to me. I don't want to ruin any of this equipment. |
Al - I just had some time to re-read all of your comments and looking at the figure 1 link you posted. Wow! Thank you so much for looking into this. I'm floored at how much knowledge you have on this. It took me a bit to understand it even a bit. It makes a lot of sense. I'm excited to try this. Just waiting for an answer on how to actually put two wires into 0ohm. Maybe its just as simple as I think. Waiting to hear back. Thanks again !!
O, I am already using the 4ohm in my current setup. Does that mean it won't help the bass issue? Or will it still help because the low impedence power will be more focused on the lower frequency instead of shared with the highs? Also, will this put more stress on my amp, making it put out power from both? Anything to be concerned about? |
Pics! Thank you thank you. View the 2 pics in this link that show how I've set it up for one speaker so far. I'm going to get back to it for the second. Let me know if this is what you're talking about.
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Set%20up
PS. I was actually using the 8ohm setting the whole time so even more chance of improvement now.
I was able to fit 2 wires in the 0ohm banana plug. Also, I'm just using some standard wire that I had lying around to try this. I kept the slightly better cable for the low frequency and used the standard for the highs. |
RESULTS! I'm very happy (although maybe too soon) that I can report very significant improvements jn bass control and articulation! I want to give it time to prove that I'm not just hearing things but I have it a little louder then normal and I hear a more balanced sound. I did exactly what Al recommended with bi-wiring. Took some work but was very worth it. Wow I'm listening now and am floored at how much more balanced my sound is. Wow!! Thank you so much everyone and especially Al for supporting me and going way above and beyond. I've learned a ton.
You guys are incredible. I'll keep you posted after more listening time. |
Ya it's sounding good my friends! I'm thinking of which speaker cables to get for each frequency range. Would it make sense to go for a "lean and tight" cable for low frequency and a sweet high frequency cable for the highs. In other words ask myself what I want most out of the two frequencies. Or would you guys recommend using the same cable for both ? |
I think what makes sense right now is to get used to this new sound. Then consider my next option. What I've noticed so far is that the bass issue has been removed at the 9 o'clock volume position and only starts to become a problem at nearly the 10 o'clock position. Which in my room is quite loud. So this has definitely improved my bass issue and I feel confident that I can manage this issue with a few more tweaks. Id love to try room accoustics as I think it is a must for any situation but I can't do that just yet because I'm unclear with my living situation. So I think a rca interconnect might be the next thing to consider. |
I've played a lot with the different modes since I've had the amp. I've always loved the triode mode. The linear mode does help the bass issues a bit. But not enough. I've used the triode mode as the benchmark for each tweak I've made so far (speaker positioning and bi wiring). I still check how it affects linear mode but my goal is to get to a happy place with triode. Plus since the bass issue is slightly worse in triode it was a better place to start notice improvements as my discernment skills are developing.
The other thing that has been changed before I made the biwire tweak is the tubes. They are now el34 wc (svetlana) compared to the stock Primaluna el34's. They came with my purchase of the amp so I'm not sure if they are broken in yet. I assumed they were but I should check into that because that would make things confusing ;). But I do know that the changes from biwiring were immediate and impressive regardless.
One thing that I toyed with before the biwiring was my itunes equalizer. It definitely reduced bloatness in the bass. I'm no expert, but it doesn't feel right to have all this effort and money in a hifi setup and only to lower frequency responses on an EQ which alters an artists intentions. As I heard "less bass" it was satisfying at first but then I realize that I've, in some cases, eliminated sounds of a piece so that it could be appropriate to my rig and environment. Is my thinking correct? Or is this what I'm essentially doing when I make tweaks to achieve my current goals? I think this gets into the philosophy of it all so would love your opinions on EQ. |
So glad you caught my lack of clarity on what we really did with the wiring. I've never heard of or thought of putting 2 ground (-) wires in the 0ohm terminal. So your right, it's what we did with the wires that made the difference. I'm still thrilled about what we did. Unconventional, clever and resourceful. I didn't spend a dime (I had some extra cheap cable wire lying around) and I'm not adding any "tone control" tweaks like interconnects that are known for being "lean" (not that I'm against that, I'm still going to do that if it's still needed). I'd say that this tweak was the best one to make at this point, other then room acoustics. But even then, I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't want to properly allocate the amps ohm output.
In regards to EQ, I completely agree with Al. All of our ideals in the chain are just that - our made up ideals. The fact is that before we even decide on which song to play there have already been endless, less then ideal breaks in the "ideal" chain (ie the recording process). I played with the idea of trying to keep everything neutral for the sake of hi fi and all that. But I realized that who cares? It's your sound, your music. If you like boomy bass, work towards more boomy bass. If you like unnatural "sparkliness", then go for it. If you want to hear the recording completely as it is, then go for complete neutrality. For me, I'd rather enjoy (based on my personal tastes) my music that I enjoy, not dependant on how well the recording was. I have no control over how they recorded but I do have control over my setup and making it sound as I like. |
