ray:
i'm not trying to me mean, but i've read many of your threads and one thing always irks me. since we are on the subject of spelling, it is chardonnAy not chardonnEy. but either way you spell it, it's a great preamp. i should know, i suffered through an 8 month wait for mine. :) as far as tube rolling goes, i'm using a bendix 6106, ken rad black glass vt-231's, and sylvania 5932's. due to my impulsive nature, i installed them all at the same time so i can't comment on each tube's contribution. but, i'm happy. |
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Wc65mustang,
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Take a hike....
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Fiddler, check your dictionary!!!!!knowledgeable,,hee hee,i guess i spelled it right,,,do i hear an apology?? |
I think that many of us respect Ecclectique’s opinions a lot. He had helped us not only in tube rolling issues but in other audio related issues as well. In relation to tube rolling I also was in touch with Mick and his position is that NOS tubes sound “different” in his Supratek designs, not necessarily “better.” And here comes the trick! Since audible perception is quite subjective, what for some people is only “different,” for other people is just “better.” Trust your ears and decide what route you want to take. Meanwhile, please, do not disrespect a gentleman like Ecclectique. Respectfully yours, Pablo. |
Perhaps Wc65mustang can take the money he is saving on tubes and enroll in charm school.
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Fiddler,hee hee ,i never did win many spelling bees,i do know that some tubes sound better to my ears than the stock tubes in my Chardonney,i wish i did prefer the stock tubes,sure would be easier on my bank account! hope i didnt spell anything wrong!Peace,and happy listening to all!PS. i think you fergot a coma,,,, |
Nice dodge, Wc65mustang!
How about answering the question regarding the Aesthetix vs. the Supratek.
Only a "lady" would weasel out when she was caught with her hand in the cookie jar!
And yes, "Knowledgable" is "relative"...especially when it is spelled wrong.
Either find a legitimate reason to criticize tube rolling in the Suprateks or go waste other people's time. Virtually every tube product made benefits from rolling tubes from stock tubes to NOS. The Supratek is no different. |
Wc65Mustang-Ecclectique's contributions in this forum and many others is immeasurable in both amount and value of knowledge and a great help to many. I await your response to Fiddler's question as well! |
Raytheprinter says "are very knowledgeable and very helpfull guys ,,,please be nice"
Knowledgable is relative and helpful is questionable; the fact remains that the designer and builder does not recommend what these quasi audiophiles are doing. So keep on rollin' ladies. |
Wc65mustang,I think Ecclectique and Jazzdude are very knowledgeable and very helpfull guys ,,,please be nice, |
Geez, Wc65mustang, why dump on Ecclectique? He has been very helpful to many of us here with tube rolling. And I personally have corresponded with Mick several times about tube rolling and his only advice to me, aside from offering appropriate substitutions, was to beware of unscrupulous tube dealers selling counterfeit NOS tubes. Didn't need the warning, but I appreciated it none-the-less. And I find it interesting that you are bustin' on Ecclectique about tube rolling when I came across this thread initiated by you: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1081292815&openusid&zzWc65mustang&4&5#Wc65mustangIt seems in the case of the "Aesthetix Rhea" YOU are asking "amateur audiophiles with mid-fi knowledge and components" for their advice, but with the Supratek you are hammering Ecclectique for trying to help the rest of us. Don't you think the "owner and designer" of Aesthetix also knows what's best for the Rhea? Why is it anymore inappropriate to change the stock tubes that the designer chose in a Supratek than the stock tubes the designer chose in the Aesthetix? As long as Ecclectique's advice is correct regarding the electrical characteristics of tube substitutions, where's the beef, especially in light of *your* thread which I linked above. |
>>Pick your poison sir.<<
I will go with the owner and designer of the equipment not an amateur audiophile with mid-fi knowledge and components "Sir". |
WcMustang. Yes sir. We are more than certain Mick knows what works and what doesn't. However.... A new production 5ar4 is electrically the equivalent of: you quessed it... An old nos gz34/5ar4 and the sovtek 5881 is the electrical equivalent of a nos 5881/6L6 as well as many other substitutions in the regulator position. That's why they call it tube rolling sir. Pick your poison sir. |
Ecclectique,thanks for the info!I think im getting over my somewhat irrational fear that the worlds supply of good NOS tubes is going to dry up before i can aquire a lifetime supply for my Chardonney,,,, |
>>Mick's comments have a lot of merit.<<
Do you think? I'm sure he'll be glad to hear you approve. I would suspect the designer has a better idea than any of us as to what works and what doesn't. |
Wc65mustang - Mick's comments have a lot of merit. Esp about the different rectifier/regulator combo really only serving to change the operating points on the signal tubes. I still recommend rolling all the tubes, but I would use some auditory/budgetary discretion along with a clear plan of action. I suggest rolling the rectifier first, regulator second, and signal tubes last. |
You might think twice before fooling around with the 5881. I emailed Mick about tube rolling for my Grange and this is the reply:
"The best thing to change is the ECC88- it makes a real difference. People have changed the 5881's and 5AR4 but what that does is change the operating characteristics. It negates all the work I've done in setting them up, but we all hear differently and some people seem to like the (slightly)different sound. Or maybe they need to justify the cost of these expensive tubes.
My advice is to buy CD's, records and enjoy the bloody thing! Every time you feel like spending momey on it, put the money in the bank- in a couple year or so i will possibly have an upgraded design (design is where the real benefits come from) and you will be able to afford an upgrade trip".
That being said I just picked up a pair of 1960's Siemens Cca to replace the ECC88; I should have them by the weekend. |
Fiddler,
Mick is using these in the new Cortese preamps. He said he has hundreds of NOS tubes on hand, but he really likes the sound of these tubes. I have heard that the gold pins are not worth the extra cost. |
Anyone tried the EH 6SN7 gold pins? Or the non-gold pins? |
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Fiddler,
I don't have an email address, but go to Audioasylum.com and go to either the Tube or SET asylum and ping someone named Len. I purchased roundplates from him. He was very, very helpful about these tubes and alternatives, and the tubes he sent were as represented. Good person to deal with. |
Can anyone recommend a good, reliable source for Tung Sol 6SN7 "round plates". My '52 Syls are becoming microphonic and one is starting to spit quite a bit. |
Thanks for your answers, but what reissue of KT-66 or other tube would give me most warm, details and drive (if such combination of features is possible) ?
Which new replacement will get me closest to famous WE 350B performance ?
Are tubes from Chinese Valve Art (KT-66) or maybe Harmonics any good ? |
Sorlowski. The tung sol 5881 is too pricey only because it is a good sounding tube when used as an output tube in push/pull configured audio amp as well as being very popular with the guitar amp guys where it's in big demand. It's really not that great a tube in the supratek anyway and certainly not worth paying the current market price for. The lowly 6F6g as well as many others inexpensive nos types like the 6v6,6k6,6u6 sound as good if not better for the same cost of the currently manufactured 5881's or 6L6's. The chineese kt-66 reissue is a very good tube if you want new. |
Sorlowski,
I am currently using the Sovtek KT-66(about $50.00 per match pair at tubestore.com in which I have no affiliation whatsoever)that Mick recommended to one owner here which he shared on this thread a while ago. It needs to play at least 50 hours before it shows its real character. With the RC VT-231, Mullard 5AR4, and TFK 6922 plus Mullard M8080 on the phono, my preamp never sounded so good. At least to me of course but I am very impress how the tonal balance becomes so natural in my system with this tubes as regulator. I have compared it to Sylvania 6F6G's which I thought the "it" tube for me, Tungsol 5881, RCA 6L6GC Black Plates, GE 7581, and GEC KT-66 Brown Amphenol base(the only two I have left) and I like the Sovtek better.
Do not make any conclusion about this tube's ability until about 50 hours as I mentioned, after that it gets even better.
Of course, you can take my post with a grain of salt. I am just sharing my findings that's all.
regards,
Abe |
Kpinneo. Further to the above thread.... I was reviewing what I had written and clicked the submit button by accident. Anyway.... The re-wiring for mine is a little more straight forward considering I only need to unsolder and re-route two wires. I am assuming here that you have some soldering skills,basic electronic fundamentals and a little experience with vacuum tubes in general. If not; I would suggest you work with a local techie or a modder to do the change for you. Furthermore: You will have to run the extra wires with the top caps either/or from the underside of the preamp and up the sides to the connections on the top of the 7193 or drill holes beside the tube socket to route the extra wiring needed. The wiring and pin connections for the 6sn7 is somewhat different being it has two triodes sections. The heaters [pin 2 and 7 ] or the same for both tube types. The cathode [pin 8 ] is also common to both tubes. Remember the 7193 is a single triode so one triode section of the 6sn7 will be unsoldered at the tube bass. The unsoldered wires will be at pin #2,3,and 4. Those wires should be folded and labelled. The connections for the 7193 should be as follows: Pin #8 is wired for the cathode, pin #7 is wired for the heater. Pin #6 will be unsoldered as this wire will need to be re-routed to the top of the tube and a top cap soldered to it. Pin # 5 is the anode, unsolder and re-route the wire to the top cap of the tube. Top Caps must be snug at the tube connection. Always mark the wires for identification for converting it back. Remember, the gain of the preamp will now be 1/2 of the 6sn7 unless you use a pair for each channel. For those that want to use the standard 6j5 and equivalent subs....leave the connections as they are at pin #5[grid] and pin #6[anode] and unsolder pins #2,3, and 4. Please note: I will not be held responsible for any damages to your equipment as a result of this post and I would strongly suggest you consult with mick at supretek before you proceede. Hope this helps and best of luck. |
What are the best new replacements for 5881 which comes with Chenin, because NOS replacements like WE350B or Tung Sol 5881 are awfully expensive... |
Hi Gang. Raytheprinter.... The kenrad black vt-231 really has a flavour all of it's own with perhaps the most dynamic bass energy of all of the 6sn7 types, albeit a little on the tubby side when compared to most of the others.Above the bottom 2 octaves it is very clean with great ambience and air, it throws a big soundstage thats both deep and wide. By comparison, the greyglass rca vt-231 possesses a very similiar character tonally. It's bass range is also somewhat overly ripe however it is a well balanced tube from top to bottom with a beautiful timbre, harmonically rich with a realistic soundstage and liquid mids. Not quite as vivid and organic as the kenrad but a beautiful voice none the less. Kpinneo.... Congrats on your new Sauvignon. Regarding the wiring for the 7193, I am assuming your sauvignon is set up with the 6sn7 for line gain duty. The 6sn7 [a dual triode] is basically 2 6j5's[a single triode] in one bottle. Both the 6sn7 and the 6j5 are octal based tubes and utilize the same tube bass. My cortese is set up for 2 6j5's for each channel or 4 6j5's in total for line gain. The 7193 is the electrically equivalent to the 6j5 except it's connection to the grid [pin 5 on the base] is now rerouted to the top of the tube and connected with a top cap. The anode [pin 3] is also rerouted to the other top cap on the tube. |
Ecclectique, I'm intrigued by your explanation of your switch to the 7193, but am a little more than confused yet on the actual process-electronics not being one of my strong suites. I'm wondering if you or someone else who has done the switch would consider posting a step-by-step expose of the operation and being very specific? (I have a Sauvignon , but system is not up and running yet.) |
Iwas wondering if any of the NOS 6SN7s sound close to the KR VT231s,,RCA maybe? |
Ecclectique,Thank you! Im still trying to decide how i feel about the 5V4G,,will report back in a few days!Did i already mention how much i like the Kenrads!!! |
Hi Raytheprinter. Man, you have been on a mission lately!...and a very fine system sir. Didn't mean to put any pressure on you. I see you have already discovered the Kenrad vt-231....a great tube in the supratek. How did the sylvania 5v4 work out for you? It can be marginal for the supratek's with a phono stage unless it test's close to 100%. You may or may not experience a little image shift or wander when playing vinyl. Both examples of the 5v4g that I have do ehibit this peculiar trait. |
Ecclectique,i sure feel pressured to find the combination of tubes i like best, and buy a lifetime supply of them,before the cost gets beyond my reach!Your response is very well written,even i understood it ,thanks.Would it be possible to add a tube socket to each channel on a standard Supratek preamp ? |
Supratek options and alternative tubes!!!! For those that are considering ordering a new preamp from Mick. As many of you know, Mick will custom make the preamp with a host of options: like a mono switch for the phono stage, gain switches, input and output configuration etc. The 6sn7 dual triode is the standard tube offered for line gain in all of the supratek's with the exception of the cabernet which uses a directly heated triode px4 for gain duty. The 6sn7 is a great sounding high gain dual triode tube that has gained favour and has been vitually reincarnated in many modern amp and preamp circuit design as opposed to it's electrically equivalent 9 pin miniature cousins like the 12ax7,12au7,12at7 family of dual triode tubes that were so common in the typical commercial circuits of the 60's,70's and 80's in the likes of Marantz, macs,fisher, and ARC's etc. And like he better minature 9 pin tubes [telefunkens'siemen,amperex, mullard etc] prices for nos 6sn7's and equivalents have escalated into the stratosphere with no end in site. "Check out the market value of a nos telefunken ecc803"[an uprated 12ax7 dual triode]These are typically trading now at close to $1000 a pair!!! The tung sol round plate 6sn7's are now trading at $200+ a pair if they are new in box! Geez gang.... 10 years ago you could buy tung sol rounds NIB for $10 a tube..... makes the stock market or your average mutual fund investments look pretty silly. Concerned yet? It's great for many of us that have collected a stock of nos tubes, but what about the newbie that wants to voice his gear with something other than crappy sovteks or the chineese equivalents????? Yes gang, there are alternative tube options that one can acquire for the suprateks that are very plentiful, dirt cheap, low in demand,and sound as good as the "best" of the 6sn7 tube family and at a fraction of their cost. What are they you ask? Single triodes..... 6j5's,6c5's,6p5's,or the magnificent 7193. Yes...some of these tubes have less gain than the 6sn7 but that can also be a huge benefit to those that have too much gain and very little play with their volume control. Example: I can only use the low gain setting on the syrah in my rig as the high gain switch gives me to little play on the volume pot [9 oclock on the dial is loud] The alps pot that Mick uses has typically sounded best around 12 oclock or higher in most any preamp employing the alps pot. If you need more gain,one can order the preamp with 2 sockets/channel and use a pair of single triodes and have the same high gain as the dual triode 6sn7 without having to route the signal through the contacts of the switch. If one needs less gain and is handy with a soldering iron, simply unsolder 2 wires to the 2nd tube socket. There are a huge selection of nos 6j5 types, metal envelopes,shoulder shaped G bottles,gt glass bottles from all of the great US munufacturers like kenrad, tungsol, sylvania, national union,RCA,Marconi etc as well as the great euro equivalents from Genelex,MO valve,brimar etc. Some are of round plate construction,some flat plate and a few are mesh plates. The 40's metal based sylvania 6j5 gt sounds every bit as good as the insanely expensive metal based 6sn7 vt-231. The kenrad 6j5gt sounds very similiar to the kenrad black and typically sells for $15 a tube. The 6p5g and 6c5g [lower gain than a 6j5]is in a different leaugue altogether and will outperform all of 6sn7. For the daring,or technically inclined DYI types.... I have saved the best for last as rewiring the tube socket is in order here to accomodate the 7193! The 7193 triode is a strange looking octal tube with plate and grid caps on the the top of the glass. These are electrically equivalent to a 6j5 single triode or 1/2 of a 6sn7. They were munufactured by RCA, NU, kenrad and tungsol as far back as the early 1930's.Many were used in old Juke boxes in their day as well as some early 50's tv sets. This tube just stomps on any 6sn7! Simply said.... there is no going back once you hear it. It's like comparing a telefunken ecc803 to a ge 12ax7, or a we350b to a 6L6. Halographic like no other,dead quiet,microphonics are non existant, super liquidity with incredible clarity,a silky sweet top end that floats into your room,the bass energy and drive of the kenrad vt-231 but far crisper and 3 times as tight. I use the cortese in my main system with my very efficient Tannoy Westminster's driven by VAC pa-90 monos employing the genelex kt-77 output tube. With the 6sn7's in the preamp I have very little room for play with the volume control whereby a single 6j5 is perfect for my application. I have unsoldered the other socket whereby I use only 1 6j5/channel. If I change amps or speakers that are lower in sensitivety, I simply solder 2 wires to the second socket. This allows me the gain flexibility without routing the signal through another switch. It also allows me the abilty to compare the dual triode 6sn7's to single triode 6j5 or equivalents like the 6c5's,6p5's and 7193,s. Some food for thought for those the are considering a new supratek preamp. |
Ecclectique,great description of the GEs, i put a pair in and found the midrange to be a little thin with the 6106,i put the Sovtek 5AR4 back in and was rewarded with a very clear,sound with great bass,large solid soundstage,good low level detail,and SOME of the midrange magic of the kenrads,def more presence,,using Tungsol 6L6GTB for reg. i still prefer the Kenrad black glass,6106,6L6GTB combo,the 5AR4,GE6SN7,6L6GTB combo is a good low cost set of tubes for my system.I dont have a great amount of exp. with tube swapping but i know good sound when i hear it!i also have a Westinghouse 5V4G ive yet to try in rect. Boy this is great fun!!!!!!Also,thanks for all the great info guys! |
Hi Gang. Raytheprinter, the ge 6sn7gtb sidegetter is a very good inexpensive tube option for those that don't want to pay the price for a pair of kenrad blacks, tung-sol rounds,or the metal based sylvania vt-231. In my experience... there are only 4 to 5 6sn7 types I could live with in the supratek and all of them are rather pricey,with the exception of the ge sidegetter. The ge sidegetter [gta or gtb] is the a very well balanced tube, with a midbass punch and resolution that will compete or surpass any of the tubes mentioned above . Further more....it is clean,clear and typically very low in noise with no microphonic tendencies so common in the better sounding 6sn7's. No...it doesn't possess the midband bloom and holographics of the Ken's or tungsol's but it is certainly an over achiever when price is a consideration and unquestionably the best "bang for the buck" tube choice for the supratek's. |
I really like the Kenrad JAN CKR 6SN7 GT/VT231 Black glass !! |
has anyone seen this site? virtual valve museum? |
Hello Raytheprinter. Yes, it's a nice sounding tube in the syrah. |
Hello Guys,has anyone used a Sylvania 5V4G? |
the stock tubes did not sound bad in my Chard. ,it did take close to a month for everything to fall into place.Im now using;rectifier;Bendix6106 regulator;TungSol 6L6WGB linestage;KenRad 6SN7GT/VT231,much better than stock tubes,Thank you Slowhand!ive been looking for 350Bs with no luck,so many more tubes to try! |
It's the same tube. "Red Bank" refers to a specific Bendix manufacturing division/plant (located in New Jersey), not any cosmetic differences. |
What is a difference in look, sound quality between Bendix 6106 and Red Bank Bendix 6106 ?
Or maybe all Bendix 6106 are Red Bank Bendix 6106 ? |
thanks Jazzdude,my mistake ,the date in the ad was 1954 not 52 , |
Raytheprinter - 6SN7 quality starts to decline in the early 50's. This is just a generalization. There are very noteable exceptions like the Sylvania 6SN7GT of that period. 6sn7gta and 6sn7gtb are not as good for audiophile applications as 6sn7gt and vt-231. In 1952 6sn7gt's were still being manufactured and I don't think the 6sn7gtb had been designed yet. To the best of my recollection the 6sn7gtb has the same higher plate voltage of the 6sn7gta but with a slower startup. I stay away from GE tubes until there are no more Sylvania/Ken-Rad/RCA left in the world. |
Slowhand - I used the dual-plate 5932 in the Sauvignon and Cabernet for at least 18 months. IMO it is probably the most underrated of the regulator tubes. My SupraTeks were always at their quietest and the soundstage most stable with the 5932 in place. Regarding impact on the sound qualities the 5932 is between the 6F6G and 7027a/KT-66.
bass output/fullness 7027a/KT-66>5932>6F6G
harmonics 6F6G>5932>7027a/KT-66
detail retrieval 6F6G>5932>7027a/KT-66 |
Has anyone used the 5932 tube in the regulator position on the Supratek? If so, what are your thoughts? |
has anyone tryed GE6SN7 GTB Side getter 1952 ? |
I have an extra pair of TJ101D which I cannot use in my cabernet. So any cabernet owners who can use this tube are welcome to them. Its a freebie, I don't won't any money for them. Send me an email. |
thanks Jazzdude,,im really looking forward to trying some NOS,ive been moving my ICs around a bit,and am amazed at the diff. i now hear with the Chard in my system,i seem to prefer the middle gain setting on back of unit,too much gain seems to fatten up the sound ,too little it seems thin |
