Theaudiotweak, I haven't looked but is there a table of speed propagations through different materials? And what does one seek-faster or slower? Also is it frequency dependent? I had a good deal of engineering training in undergraduate school but mainly in EE and ME. |
While picking and choosing and auditioning new materials for the latest platforms this session appeared.
There was a variation.. of many tried that was less than 1/2 of 1 percent difference in gross material content. The presentation of this single platform was like having an animated 3D surreal Dali oil painting on the wall in front of me bending and blending itself onto the ceiling. It was if I were in a fish bowl looking around with double vision. While this vision within a vision was totally engaging it was also totally wrong. Strange how a little thing like chemistry can make for such a big change in sound. Speed propagation thru the material was the culprit. Tom. Star Sound Technologies. |
I am so happy to see other members discovering and enjoying these Apprentice platforms. It is really a great day in this hobby when you can not only afford to buy an accessory, but it makes an important contribution to your enjoyment of reproduced music. I imagine that some of you, like myself just want to shout out to other members with systems great or small "Get these!"
I can't imagine a system that they would not improve. |
Agear,
Your SOTA mechanically grounded listening room demands that the Backstage find a permanent home there. |
Well,
We can all agree that the Apprentice is a terrific product.I look forward to Agear's inevitable purchase of the Backstage platforms and how they improve upon the Apprentice's high standards that we've established here. Agear don't keep us waiting too long.
Charles, |
Ok after 4 days these Star Sound Apprentice stands have fully bloomed! Natural tone, luscious bass, engaging mids......all served up with all the dynamic energy you hear in live music. These are really a wonderful investment and marvelous. I want to repeat they do settle in over 72 hours and become more full bodied and natural sounding. |
I agree that the stands don't all of a sudden change the perspective from row ten to one. If your system and speakers give you row one, then the stand will give you better sound in row one.
Agear has a killer row one room and speaker!
My speakers are not quite row one, but the stands made them more of what they already were if that makes sense... |
I don't believe that the Apprentice change the fundamental room/speaker presentation. Depends on the recording but usually my stage begins behind the speaker's plane and goes back beyond the front wall. Some recordings place the instruments out in front of the speakers. As Agear said and I agree, the overwhelming effect is that the live presence/palpable aspect is improved. The sense of dynamic energy, flesh and blood and vibrancy are undeniable. It your system is organic this quality is enhanced further. The sound seems to come from everywhere but the speakers themselves with good recordings.
Charles, |
what is the presatation like?, Is it roll A, D, G, J???? This can vary with room geometry and speakers, but generally I have found the SS stands to have a much more "live" sound (aka ambient energy). In my current room, it is definitely more of a front row presentation (not mid or back hall). The musicians are right "there"....just like the real thing. |
Mark_nz, very interesting, what a great read!, thankyou for your paticapation here. |
I have been experimenting over a number of years to get the best out of my B&W803D/Diamond loudspeakers which are hampered by a suspended wood-frame chipboard floor. The floor is both resonant and energy absorbing. For many years I used a loudspeaker platform made from 28mm laminated hardwood plywood which was bolted to the loudspeaker, and then spiked through the carpet into the floor chipboard.
The wider stance from the platform with inherent stability of the 3 spikes was superior to using the B&W spikes which didn't pierce the carpet, and hence was unstable. This platform tightened the sound - more focused and detailed sound-staging, and tighter bass. Best bang for buck tweak!
More recently tried StillPoints Ultra Fives bolted directly to the loudspeaker which sat on the carpet. This made it obviously very easy to tweak the position of the loudspeaker, but was dangerously unstable (the loudspeakers are tall, relatively narrow, and a bit top heavy). And the sound lost some of it's drive.
I then built a platform from 40mm Bamboo plywood where the StillPoint Ultra Fives bolted to the loudspeaker sat in cut-outs in the platform, and the platform was spiked to the underlying chipwood floor. This was physically stable and it resulted in significant improvement in inner detail over just the spiked platform with no downsides. Critically it made listening to music simply more compelling.
But I was still concerned about the resonant floor impacting the clarity of the bass/mid-bass. And the StillPoints + Platform made tweaking the loudspeaker position very difficult (because the StillPoints Ultra Fives could not be both bolted to the loudspeaker and the platform).
So I got a set of Townsend Seismic Isolation Bars and Pods to replace the spikes. Initially I tried these directly under the loudspeakers. But with a top heavy loudspeaker it resulted in scarily wobbly structure. There was a promising reduction in bass/mid-bass resonance, but sound-stage was a bit diffuse. I then bolted 3 Seismic Pods to the Bamboo platform using L steel brackets so that bottom of the platform was just off the carpet, so if loudspeaker was prodded it wouldn't topple over too far.
Well - this combination of the Townshend Seismic Pods with the StillPoints is excellent - dramatic increase in detail with lovely holographic sound-stage. More clarity through bass/mid-bass. Compared to spiking, the downside is a softening of the leading bass edge and slight reduction in deep bass impact. But on balance a great combination and a keeper. |
Your feedback was spot on with questions I do not need to ask now, you were imformative and covered the sound of these stands quite well, however, what is the presatation like?, Is it roll A, D, G, J????, where the presatation placement is of importance to me, thankyou Grannyring. |
Bill, I did a similar comparison with the original Stillpoints and the apprentice stands under Intuitive Design Gamma Summits, and I my findings mirror yours. Better bass, focus, and ambient energy but maintaining an organic signature. The Stillpoints also had some midrange fizz or something that I did not completely care for. Hard to pin down.... |
My speakers weight 125 pounds each. They are on a carpet and the carpet is over concrete. |
Forgot to mention one of the most interesting changes in 48 hours with these Apprentice stands. The bass is much more powerful and forceful as compared to hour 2. More powerful and articulate than the Stillpoints. Again, the Stillpoints seem to give a softer, rounder bass.
The bass is so good with these Star Sound stands....but give it some time. It just shows up after some 36 hours or so and bam! Oh my....very nice indeed. Really it is just like that....boom there it is and the bass comes alive right before my ears. It happened just like that. Strange, but my experience. |
An update. The Stillpoints are very good indeed. I can we why they are so popular. They certainly work as advertised. I decided to sell them as I prefer the Apprentice stands. The Stillpoints do sound different folks. The Ultra SS footers still have a more rounded sound in the bass. The imaging can be spooky good at times with sounds appearing out of nowhere and hanging in a 3D space that is spooky cool. They cost $2000 for a set of eight so they better be good and they are.
The Star Sound Apprentice stands cost about half that with 8 of the 1.5 inch Audio Points per stand. The bass is now more apparent and the sound more relaxed as compared to sound with the stands under the speakers for a couple of hours. I must admit I had a hard time believing these things settle in, but they do indeed. The sound is now more natural and unforced.
Most areas of sonic performance are improved with the Apprentice stands as compared to the Stillpoints. Music has more life, energy and dynamic impact. Increased resolution and micro details are readily noticeable. Images are more razor sharp and resolved. Seems to be more decay and sparkle to the music and instruments.
The Stillpoints do this 3D imaging thing better. They are still softer sounding and rounder in the bass. Some will like this for sure.
It has been 48 hours now and I will report back at 72 hours. |
There is a gain in apparent dynamics with just the Audio Point alone. The shelf between the two points increases the collection area of the tip. When all is mechanically grounded to a much higher mass such as a floor then energy migrates in that direction. The apparent increase in level and resolution comes from the enhanced direction provided by the reactive materials and shapes. What you are hearing is a signal more time coherent, one less corrupt from material storage influences and modulation. Tom. Star Sound Technologies. |
Thankyou TBG and Tom of star sound technologies,I understand and Believe what is said here now on the settle in period. |
I had a similar experience with the SP 101 platforms underneath my speakers. Robert had warned me in advance though. I experienced a loss of bass and bass voulume. I agree that it does indeed take a few days for the connection to settle in and start doing their magic. Well worth the wait. |
Tom please explain why the volume is actually up with your stand under my speaker. No doubt about it! Very interesting. |
Here is what I have encountered.
Cables take time to break in and so do mechanical grounding devices such as those we design. Energy is always in search of ground and when that point of contact is broken or moved it takes time to re establish that reference point. All materials reach a state of relaxation or a reduction of stress, that is what takes place and can be heard when you move a cable from one location to another.
Our designs carry over to real acoustic instruments and you can easily see and hear the ground point establish itself. During a cello performance when the instrument suddenly blooms acoustically on stage you know the reference has been established. Upon return from intermission the instrument takes a couple of minutes to find this reference point once again, you can hear this happen as well.
Speakers and electronics depending on their material and mass will take varying amounts of time to settle in and establish a a relaxed ground state. With an audio component on board we recommend 72 hours as a guide line for our products to establish their reference point. Tom. Star Sound Technologies.
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Audiolabyrinth, I have noticed the same thing as Grannyring. As I understand it, the Audio Points flatten somewhat and adjust to the load and the steel platform also adjusts to the load. It really doesn't matter as what he says is true.
The speed and sharp leading edge is also characteristic but why? I cannot say that mechanical grounding makes much sense to my understanding of physics, but whatever is going on, works. |
agear, can you explain why?, reffering to you post about the ss taking a few days to sound better?, I do not understand that, they are made of material, not electrical componets like caps and tubes. |
Bill, the SS stands take a couple of days to relax. They always sound a little edgy and forward at first blush.... |
Thanks grannyring, nice read, I look forward to your impressions. |
Thanks grannyring, nice read, I look forward to your impressions. |
Ok here are my initial impressions of the Stillpoints Ultra SS footers vs. the Star Sound Apprentice stand with 4 sets of 1.5 inch Audio Points. My new speaker is the Lahave Khara. These speakers came with Stillpoints as Stillpoints uses Lahave as their reference speaker.
First and most obvious thing I noticed took me completely by surprise. The volume increased without me touching the volume knob setting. What? I said out loud. How can this be? No doubt about it however. The music has more energy, improved dynamic contrasts, and sharper leading edges.
The Stillpoints have a softer, rounder sound. I don't want to say more just yet, as I sear the sound is settling in as the Apprentice spends more time under the speaker. Things were a little too high energy at first, but after just two hours the sound is relaxing if you will.
I will add more comments tomorrow night. |
That's good TBG, any time we can play loud and enjoy the tunes is great, makes me feel young again when I crank the volume, and It sounds very real, then I get to see the visual show of dishes rattling and walls vibrating, Oh well, Kid at heart! |
Agear, I tried the Apprentices without the cups against the bottom of components and with them. Having them was somewhat better. I do also use them on my hardwood floors. I did try IsoClean feet instead of the Star Sound cups and heard no difference. I would imagine that not using the cups would be better on carpet.
I don't know whether it is the HFC ics, speaker wires, pcs, or the WGPC, the Star Sound Apprentices, the Koda K 10 preamp, or even the new Empirical Audio Legacy music server, but I'm playing louder, enjoying it more, and have had few complaints about the music being too loud. |
Agear is correct in using the APCD2 coupling discs on his cork floor. You should also use these discs on hardwood,stone or tile floors. I prefer the sound benefit when using a coupling disc between the point tip and the bottom of the component. The coupling disc increases the surface area of the point tip by equalizing the mechanical impedance of the different surface materials. If you have carpet over a sub floor or over concrete I would always direct couple the point to the floor below. Tom..Star Sound Technologies |
I look forward to what you say Grannyring. |
Thankyou everyone,thankyou for your hospitality as well, what do you use under the 103's?, plywood, footer disc?, why does star sound have the same size measurements for all the stands?, do you believe a 103 can support a 180 pound amp?, and still sound the way it was designed to?, or do you believe the 103 is best suited for speakers for best sound improvement? I use their brass discs to avoid damaging the cork flooring in my listening room. That being said, it is more ideal to spike your carpet and/or floor for room coupling. Those stands can support anything you can possibly throw at them and still operate at optimal capacity whether it be speakers or a dac. I find their effects more pronounced the more vibration you have at work (room>subs>speakers>tube amps>pre-amp>dac). |
I found the Apprentice and Sistrum stands have the biggest impact on speakers although they greatly benefit everything I have had them under.
But with my speakers...oh my!
I have my new speakers today with the Stillpoints and will compare to the Apprentice stands due in on Thursday. |
Thankyou TBG, I am sorry if I got you mad the other day, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, only the audio points differ from between the models. All will support up to 800 pounds, the Audio Points go down as well as up. You don't need to put anything under the Platform. No the benefits are most noticable on electronic including dacs.
Visit their webpage for most of this information. |
Yes, 1.5 inch Audio Points are used. |
Thankyou everyone,thankyou for your hospitality as well, what do you use under the 103's?, plywood, footer disc?, why does star sound have the same size measurements for all the stands?, do you believe a 103 can support a 180 pound amp?, and still sound the way it was designed to?, or do you believe the 103 is best suited for speakers for best sound improvement? |
That is what I use as well. |
I think they recommend the SP-SA 103 with their 1.5 inched Audio Points. |
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Keith, Mine are the SP-SA-103 model. Talk to Robert at Star Sound, he's friendly and will guide you properly for your individual needs.
Charles, |
Thankyou charles1dad, your response was really good about the star sound apprentice, what model do you have?, what model is your recommendation? |
Audiolabyrinth, verbal descriptions are useless. Get a listen to the HFCs. |
The Apprentice will not change the inherent character of your system generally speaking(Shindo and Krell won't suddenly be indistinguishable). Due to its effectiveness managing vibration and resonance you'll hear more of what you have. As I mentioned earlier, the resolving power is improved (but in a natural sense not hifi, at least in my system). The sense of a live presence is increased, subtitles and nuances are uncovered, so realism is better. The fullness of tone, body and overtones actually improved (and these were already a system strength prior to the Apprentice). If your system has good depth and layering it will only improve. Basically all the benefits of increased low level information will be apparent.
Charles, |
Thankyou TBG, The vocals are suppose to be where you said, however, I like my music layered, not all of it hitting me at one time, most of the music should be behind the vocals, and then, depending how the micing of the recording is, every part of the sound should have it's own place within the soundstage, Have you had any exsperience with a product of any kind presenting a forward sound stage?, if so, you know exactly what I am talking about, It does not sound natural, I looked on the star sound Apprentice web site, do you have a 103?, Is the price given for two or each, this product actually appears to be price real world instead of the fanatical pricing of most of what's in our hobby!, I have interest of the apprentice because of pricing and all that all of you said here, charles1dad said he would put the star sound product up there with his best equipment, that was impressive for him to say that,I also wanted to know if the star sound gives a slightly musical warm sound or a cold dry sound?, cheers. |
Thankyou TBG, The vocals are suppose to be where you said, however, I like my music layered, not all of it hitting me at one time, most of the music should be behind the vocals, and then, depending how the micing of the recording is, every part of the sound should have it's own place within the soundstage, Have you had any exsperience with a product of any kind presenting a forward sound stage?, if so, you know exactly what I am talking about, It does not sound natural, I looked on the star sound Apprentice web site, do you have a 103?, Is the price given for two or each, this product actually appears to be price real world instead of the fanatical pricing of most of what's in our hobby!, I have interest of the apprentice because of pricing and all that all of you said here, charles1dad said he would put the star sound product up there with his best equipment, that was impressive for him to say that,I also wanted to know if the star sound gives a slightly musical warm sound or a cold dry sound?, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, at least with the HFCables, you hear a very sharp leading edge and the decay of notes in the recording studio or hall. Lead singers do sound to be right in the plane of your speakers. They sound present. |
Bacardi, I suppose everyone's opinions rest on what the hear. Were I able to get some of the Oritons, I would try them. Until that they seem just another mix of resonance frequencies that seek to cope with the bad influence of vibrations on circuits, and having tried probably fifty different such devices, I will stick with the StillPoints or the Star Sound Apprentice platform that seek coupling rather than isolation. |
what does the star sound apprentice do for the sound stage?, I under stand what it does for sharpness, does the sound become up front and personal? |
The designer, apparently his line of work was on submarines isolating the computer from the submarine. So resonance control for sure but compared to the Stillpoints, I did a 2 hour comparison back and forth with the Oritons and definitely the Oritons did more better. My conclusions aren't even the subject to resonances, they are better defined and isolated frequencies(bass, midrange,highs) . |
