Charles,
Well stated. I am as guilty as anyone else at times of agonizing about the validity of differences I perceive when I make a change in the system, but I have felt that way less and less in the last couple of years. I usually trust my own ears and don't worry about what other listeners or measurements say. JohnK was speaking of this today in another thread, and he was concerned about the phenomenon of falsely perceived poitive differences after system changes are made, but I don't think there is a need to be too worried about it. I think if everyone just hears what sounds good to them, that is all that matters. |
Charles1dad, I would never disagree with what you say here. I should note that I had SETs using 45s, single plate 6A3s, 300Bs, and 845s. I even had Western 91Bs using we300bs from the 1950s. I still remember always fighting for more wattage and the search for good efficient speakers. |
Tbg,
Once again it just goes to show that all these audio choices we make are purely personal. My experience is the polar direction of yours(it doesn't make me right, just different). SS hasn't come close to what good SET amplifiers have revealed to my ears(your experience is different, I understand). Audio and listening to music has always been much fun for me, now it's better than ever and I appreciate that. I buy and keep what sounds right to me and that's all that matters.You pursue what you call accuracy and my goal and pursuit is what I call natural. Whatever works for each of us.
Charles, |
07-20-14: Psag
In other words, there was an apparent increase in clarity, at the expense of warmth and fullness. More analytical, less musical. This could be an advantage for some speakers, but not for the TADs in my system. ditto. One sonic element or offshoot of this is a cohesive fluidity. |
Psag, I've had a problem with the concept of "musicality." My interest is in accurately reproducing music not musicality. I know there are many who say that we will never be able to get close to realism. The StillPoints, Star Sound Apprentices, High Fidelity Cables and power cords have these thoughts are wrong. We are getting much closer to realism than I have ever thought possible, but ones electronics has to be up to snuff. As friend of mine with the same opinions, calls this luster.
One thing that I've concluded is that even the best tubes smear the sound and lack the detail in recordings. This is after many years of mainly tube electronics.
With regards to thick carpeting, I would suspect that the Star Sound Apprentices would be your salvation. A thick piece of granite on the carpet and then the Ultras might help also.
StillPoints strongly discourages having the Ultras tightly screwed against the speakers. With my BMC Arcadias, I tried to thread the screws in just enough to have an 1/8 inch separation, but when we raised the speakers into position, there was no separation. Later I found that the thread inserts in the speakers could be forced deeper into the speakers when the weight of the speakers was applied. This is probably why I found the Star Sound Apprentices better. |
TBG, I forgot to mention that the Stillpoints can work for you if you have the threaded inserts shortened so that the body of the footer is flush with the base of the speaker. I had this done by the seller, in this case The Cable Company. I'm told it wasn't easy, as they are aircraft-grade stainless steel. |
In other words, there was an apparent increase in clarity, at the expense of warmth and fullness. More analytical, less musical. This could be an advantage for some speakers, but not for the TADs in my system. I do have thick carpet with a heavy liner underneath, and I also wonder what the results would be like on an uncovered floor. Maybe better, maybe worse. |
Agear, it is just my opinion but I couldn't stand the original StillPoints. They used a less developed version of the ceramic ball technology and were not of stainless steel.
I don't know what you guys mean by altered tonality or whether there can be an "excess" of micro-detail. Can please explain what you are talking about here? |
Well I got tired of looking at and worrying about the spikes and their bases on my wood floors. I had a set of four Stillpoints ultra 5's under my turntable. So I removed and placed them under one of my magico q5's. Besides the fact that they look great and the speakers finally look finished there is NO diminishment of sound quality. They still have a strong solid bottom end, clear and complete mid and high ranges. In short, still sound fantastic! Contrary to magico warnings. But now, look fantastic as well, finished! No more concerns over floor damage. Easy to move for any adjustment or cleaning. Looking to replace on the other speaker and back under tt. Enough said. |
07-19-14: Psag
Agear, I kind of lost interest when Bo1972 hijacked the thread with his usual nonsense. I tried the Ultra 5's under my TAD Reference Ones with questionable benefit. Some increase in resolution, at the expense of tonality. I couldn't justify the price of six Ultra 5's. Hi Psag. I have others who feel the same way about the latest iteration from Stillpoints. In fact, one speaker manufacturer preferred the older generation of Stillpoints versus the new. The Ultra provided an excess of micro-detail with altered tonality. That being said, the speaker was designed around the original still points. There is something to be said for "voicing" equipment during the development phase. Adding whizbang grounding technology after the fact is not always a panacea. It can reveal or accentuate deficiencies. I have noticed the same thing with electronics. Thanks for the update and provide us with a little more detail..... |
Psag, can you tell us more. While I got some improvement with the Ultra 5s under my BMC Arcadias, I always knew that I had been unable to use them right, namely the speakers were just sitting on the Ultra 5s. I was unable to thread bolts into the threaded holes as the weight of the speakers merely pressed the inserts further into the speakers. I also know from another case that the Ultra 5s sitting on thick carpet don't work properly. |
Agear, I kind of lost interest when Bo1972 hijacked the thread with his usual nonsense. I tried the Ultra 5's under my TAD Reference Ones with questionable benefit. Some increase in resolution, at the expense of tonality. I couldn't justify the price of six Ultra 5's. |
Some things are worth repeating. Tom |
OK, I KNOW I didn't post that 4 times! Mods, feel free to zap the extras. |
Agear, I think vanity and being cheap greatly undercuts your expectation of makers of expensive gear going with the best. I remember what the manufacturer of Tidals and BMC Arcadia' said about my trying other footers under their speakers. |
Agear....i use the Ultra 5s...4 of them ..under my Tidal Contriva Diacera-SE speakers and they make a sigificant improvement in the sound as compared to the stock footers. i have a friend with Tidal 'Piano Cera's ' and he uses the Ultra SS under his and they, too, make a big improvement..i think there probably is some good, sound, science behind their developement.The USA distributor for Tidal now uses the Ultra 5s with his Tidals at the shows.. |
Just popped in the Audio Points (by myself. My effective wingspan is wider than I thought...).
First listening is very favorable. Hearing more of the strike of the hammer with piano, stick hitting cymbal etc. Bass impression so far is not that it is reduced, but that I'm hearing more below say 100hz. Richer tonality perhaps?
Soundstage width doesn't seem to have changed, but it is deeper and taller. It is easier to hear the individual contributions in two-part harmonies.
I'm almost rolling my own eyes as I type this sentence, but it's like the potential of the Salon 2s to benefit from what they are fed from the gear behind them has grown. A lot. Wicked pissah, as we say here in the Armpit of Cape Cod!
|
Just popped in the Audio Points (by myself. My effective wingspan is wider than I thought...).
First listening is very favorable. Hearing more of the strike of the hammer with piano, stick hitting cymbal etc. Bass impression so far is not that it is reduced, but that I'm hearing more below say 100hz. Richer tonality perhaps?
Soundstage width doesn't seem to have changed, but it is deeper and taller. It is easier to hear the individual contributions in two-part harmonies.
I'm almost rolling my own eyes as I type this sentence, but it's like the potential of the Salon 2s to benefit from what they are fed from the gear behind them has grown. A lot. Wicked pissah, as we say here in the Armpit of Cape Cod!
|
Just popped in the Audio Points (by myself. My effective wingspan is wider than I thought...).
First listening is very favorable. Hearing more of the strike of the hammer with piano, stick hitting cymbal etc. Bass impression so far is not that it is reduced, but that I'm hearing more below say 100hz. Richer tonality perhaps?
Soundstage width doesn't seem to have changed, but it is deeper and taller. It is easier to hear the individual contributions in two-part harmonies.
I'm almost rolling my own eyes as I type this sentence, but it's like the potential of the Salon 2s to benefit from what they are fed from the gear behind them has grown. A lot. Wicked pissah, as we say here in the Armpit of Cape Cod!
|
Just popped in the Audio Points (by myself. My effective wingspan is wider than I thought...).
First listening is very favorable. Hearing more of the strike of the hammer with piano, stick hitting cymbal etc. Bass impression so far is not that it is reduced, but that I'm hearing more below say 100hz. Richer tonality perhaps?
Soundstage width doesn't seem to have changed, but it is deeper and taller. It is easier to hear the individual contributions in two-part harmonies.
I'm almost rolling my own eyes as I type this sentence, but it's like the potential of the Salon 2s to benefit from what they are fed from the gear behind them has grown. A lot. Wicked pissah, as we say here in the Armpit of Cape Cod!
|
{quote]Seems logical to assume that the makers of megabuck speakers would use superior footers in their designs. Any experience out there with Stillpoints isolation devices to support the reference-level offerings from Magico, TAD, Rockport, Tidal, and others?
Psag (Threads | Answers | This Thread)[/quote]
Where the F--- is Psag? He started this thread.... |
07-16-14: Agear
"Yes indeed. Peter is a genius who comes across as a verbal Tasmanian devil to uninformed dolts like moi...."
lol Agear you`re a F..... funny F.... |
Gucci electronics indeed. Yes, TBG pointed out the little disks and the scotch tape trick to resolve my concern. Thank you guys. |
star sound coupling disk? |
The Sistrum stands greatly interest me for electronics but I'm concerned of my products sitting on sharp tips that will indent or scratch up the bottom of the product. Is there a solution to this? They make protective disks that work very nicely to protect your Gucci electronics |
Jafox, there is a solution, called coupling disks. Actually they sound better when used than without them.
There is a method using scotch tape to hold them on until you have the speaker or component on top. |
charles1dad, did you get a laugh out of my last post to you?, I was hopeing to lighten up the thread from the invasion of chiberish ,mmm, I wonder if the apprentice XL stands will be better than the 103 for sound quality, cheers. |
Thanks are due Charles1dad, Grannyring, Agear, Tbg, Glory and everyone else who has weighed in on this technology with their personal experience. Your findings have given me confidence that it does something quite noticeable and beneficial. My system does not lack dynamics or speed, but I am curious to hear what these products add to these qualities. Congrats and enjoy. |
The Sistrum stands greatly interest me for electronics but I'm concerned of my products sitting on sharp tips that will indent or scratch up the bottom of the product. Is there a solution to this? |
There is a big difference between a large high mass highly reactive speaker cabinet in comparison to an amplifier, power conditioner or any electronic component. In many situations the 1.5" AP will sound better than the two inch version however the 2" AP will clearly sound better in other applications.
Loudspeakers produce much more energy and vibration increasing resonance that affects the performance of each driver in combination with the enclosure. The two inch audio points were supplied for the larger Revel which has a lot more mass and surface area compared to an electronics chassis and smaller speaker designs. In this case we added more brass weight in order to attract the heavier amplitudes of resonance and unwanted noise that forms up on a dense speaker chassis. In this particular application the two inch Audio Points would clearly outperform the smaller version.
The Audio Points were provided as a quick fix/improvement and will eventually be traded back when the larger Sistrum Apprentice XL becomes available this fall.
Please remember it is not fair to compare an Audio Point performance and functionality to any Sistrum Platform design as the platforms are designed with a totally different geometry and present a much larger area of reactance. Tom. Star Sound Technology |
Nope, that was just his recommendation for me to use as the bridge product until the Apprentice XL platforms are available. |
07-15-14: Bo1972
Who the F...is Peter? I hate to admit it, but that made me laugh. Peter is the Dutch madman behind this: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?board=9.0 He has designed what many consider to be the best media player/dac in the world. You need to F.... hear one. |
P59teitel, did Robert give you any reason to buy the 2 inch Audio Points? I think the 1.5 inchers sound better. |
07-15-14: Petieboy12003
"Bol1972, are you related to Peter from Phasure? Your swirling verbiage reminds me of him. "
But but Peter really knows what he is talking about!
This is almost a huge compliment Yes indeed. Peter is a genius who comes across as a verbal Tasmanian devil to uninformed dolts like moi.... |
P59teitel,
You won't be disappointed. It is one thing to read about the positive differences that others have experienced, but it's a whole different thing when you experience it in your own system. |
Color reference was in the context of material makeup selection which in this case changes the color and the sound. Tom |
What about changing the color of the cable jacket? I suppose that's due to the speed of light propagating through the cable? |
Change the color change the sound. Change the material and change the impedance. Change the color and change the propagation of sound thru the material. Change the color no.
Tom. Star Sound Technologies. |
First they need to change the colour. :-) |
Looks like I'm the next in line to try out Star Sound products under my speakers. Had a nice followup conversation with Robert this week, after I emailed an inquiry about Sistrum Apprentice stands to use under my Revel Salon 2s.
I did state some stability concerns (the Salon 2s are heavy, about 180 lbs. apiece, but also have a tall, narrow profile - I don't think the grandchildren could take them out, but I wasn't so sure about my German Shepherds...). In response, Robert suggested I wait a couple months for the stands until their new Apprentice XL is available. This new larger version will have some clamping capability in addition to a larger, more stable footprint.
In the meantime, he is providing some threaded 2.0AP-1 Audio Points for me to use, and will apply 100% of their cost to the new Apprentice XL stands when they become available.
Thanks are due Charles1dad, Grannyring, Agear, Tbg, Glory and everyone else who has weighed in on this technology with their personal experience. Your findings have given me confidence that it does something quite noticeable and beneficial. My system does not lack dynamics or speed, but I am curious to hear what these products add to these qualities.
Oh, and I am hopeful that the irrelevant BS has fully swirled down the drain and stays there! |
Hi charles1dad, Thanks, I have taken notice of the point you have made about the still points versus star sound products, clearing away the inadequete senceless post reminds me of putting Bo on the star sound apprentice and reinstateing the thread back to normal informative post. |
Little BO peep, I you are just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. Give it a break, no one has any respect for narcissism. |
Swirling verbiage? That is so cool! |
"Bol1972, are you related to Peter from Phasure? Your swirling verbiage reminds me of him. "
But but Peter really knows what he is talking about!
This is almost a huge compliment |
I don't think that I am swirling that much. I Always work and think the same way. I use a lot less different brands. Using more different brands gives you a less higher endresult at the end. |
|
Bol1972, are you related to Peter from Phasure? Your swirling verbiage reminds me of him. |
Audiolabytinth,
Take note however of the increasing number of thread responders who've actually compared Stillpoint to Star Sound products, this is a welcome addition IMO. |
I am talking about stereo, not Multi channel. I also play over 90% stereo.
I owned the B&W Nautilus 802 and the 800 Signature. I loved the touchable image. But I didn't like their crossovers. I missed the depth of some other speakers.
The speakers who could give depth ( I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time) and other speakers missed the touchable image of the B&W.
In my head I thought: I want it all. I want a deep and wide stage. But I want a palpable intimate image as well. This part is the weakest part of Avalon.
When I was at my friends house during classical live concerts I was stunned by the intimate sound of an instrument and of a voice.
In 16 years of time I did compare a lot. The thing I love most in audio. I Always want to know which properties every single tool owns ( speaker, amp, source, cable, conditioner etc.)
After time you know when you make a combination of some brands what it will do togheter in sound and in stage.
MIT, Nordost, Audioquest, Kimber, NBS, Purist Audio, Transparent, Van den Hul, Taralabs etc have different influences on the sound, image, focus, level of black, resolution, dynamics etc.
I compared them often. Like I compare speakers. For example in 2009 I did lend the Wilson Audio Sophia 2 for 2 months. I Always want to know every single part you Judge a speaker for.
A 3D sound for me is a wide and deep stage with an intimate palpable image like in real.
When I play my favorite music I want to hear every single part of a recording separately. But also in depth. This gives a different feeling in how music influence our emotion.
The more expensive cables form Audioquest and Purist give both stunning black levels. They make the 3d stage more resalistic. It is a feeling of people are really in your room.
My 2 new Audioquest Wel Signature XLR cables did give me new level of listening to music. I never heard any set with this level of palpable image. 2nd and 3th voices are so much more apparent. Differences in Heights give a new view of my music.
The ribbontweeter give a much better palpable image than a dometweeter can. It also brings voices and instruments more loose from the speaker. This increases the stage also in front of you. The stage behind and even beside your speaker give you a more 3d feeling
At the end all parts togheter make the 3d palpable stage.
Speakers, amp, pre amp, conditioner, cables, stillpoints, source.
All these different tools I test to see which parts for Total sound they own.
That is why I bring in tools with properties a set doesn't own to make it complete. I do this also for my clients. It is a different approach, but very effective in endresults.
At shows you hear sets with a deep and wide stage, but this is only one part. When instruments become more intimate and palpable you go to a much higher level. |
Nvp
Ha 72 & NVP go at in the Netherlands. You go NVP!!! |
