Hi Psag,
The TAD and PHY-HP30 are so different in concept and design I see no way for them to sound similar at all. The PHY is very unique. They aren't even meant to be driven by the same type of amplifiers. There re from two different worlds .
Charles, |
Psag, I very much like the Phy-hp 30s, but as much as I like and respect Andrew and as often as I have listened to them at shows, I do not like the TADs other than the smallest one.
Of course, I have never tried the Ultra Fives under and the TADs, but I would be shocked were this not a big improvement.
Yo2tup, I got the Ultra Minis in today. They are a lighter sound than the Fives. I have tried a Five on top the line stage and another on the amp. Neither was quite what I had expected given prior experience. I will say nothing more now. An entire set of Ultra Minis is less money than one Ultra Five. |
I have sought Sistrum stands and their new BackStage stands to no avail. Tbg, I believe the Sistrum backstage will be reviewed by Clement Perry...at least that's what I was told. You could always talk to Robert about purchasing a pair if you so desire when they are formally in production. |
Charles1dad,
Yes, I have two systems that are polar opposites. Each one provides different joys and shortcomings, depending on source material. Your system looks very sensible, combining full range with high sensitivity. |
Hi Psag,
Thanks, I took a shortcut and likely avoided potential angst. Having the speakers, amplifier and the line stage from the same talented builder has worked out superbly for me .You know what they say about those roads leading to Rome.
Charles, |
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Or is this just an academic exercise? |
I'm going to try them, for sure. Stay tuned. |
Well, i guess I want to reopen this thread. I now have seven Star Sound Tech Apprentice Platforms as well as a lot of StillPoint devices. In terms of philosophies the two are quite different as the SPs seeks to convert all vertical vibrations into heat and Star Sound wants to transfer all to ground. They sound quite different also. The Star Sound are very quick sounding with sharp leading edge. The Stillpoints give a very holographic image, which may or may not be real.
Under my speakers the Star Sound platform worked better given the design of the BMC Arcadias as well as sounding better. The same is true under amps and my Koda preamp, which I should say is a hybrid use of both. The Koda sits on an Apprentice, which sits on a Accapella platform sitting on the rails of the Stillpoints Rack.
My best advice is to try both. I also think this thread ignored the Stillpoint Ultra Minis which on light devices are excellent. Most of my source components are on the Ultra Minis. My Nantais Lenco Reference is on a separate Stillpoints Rack on Ultra Fives, which were clearly better than the Ultra SSs. |
Tbg
I just purchased some new Lahave speakers that come with 8 Ultra SS Stillpoints. The speaker is "voiced" with these footers it seems. Anyway, I will compare the stock Stillpoint footers to the Star Sound Apprentice 103 platforms I have.
I use the Apprentice under my Romulus cd/dac and just love it. It does amazing things to my music.
I will report back on my findings. |
Congrats to Granny and Tbg. I had Apprentice stands under $75 Pioneer speakers I bought on Craigslist as surrogates until I got my speakers from Dale Pitcher. It was nothing short of astounding. I had a golden eared friend over and he stated that he has heard a lot of speakers in the 10-15K range that did not sound as good as these humble, vintage, Vietnam era speakers! Bravo Starsound.
Psag, what say ye? |
Grannyring, I would be very interested in your findings.
What I expect you to hear is speed, quickness, sharp leading edge, whatever you want to call it. It is the 103 with their 1.5" Audio Points that I have. |
I have Duelund CAST, High Fidelity CT1 Ultimate digital cable, Tripoint Troy and the Takatsuki 300b tubes in my system. These 4 are at the very top level in their respective categories. All four products are premium priced and rightly so, I find them superb in my system. The Star Sound Apprenticeare much less expensive and yet in terms of their effect I'm compelled to place them in this exalted class. As with the other four products they move my sound in the same direction. More natural, more realism and closer to what I experience with live music, emotion and connection/ involvement. All of these stellar products are for those who love music rather than seekers of Hifi hype and sizzle. IMO they will withstand the test of time. Rather than becoming bored with them and then in search of a new toy or thrill, admiration will grow. That's what true musical value does. My music listening enjoyment has deepened ever further do to these products addition to my system.
Charles, |
In relation to the stillpoint ultra SS's, I have done a direct comparison with the Ultras to a set of Oriton SC35's and preferred the Oritons. Increased resolution, well defined and tighter bass(not muddy), greater focus around vocals and instruments and soundstaging was better focused. I will add more throughout my system components. Oriton can make a larger footer than the SC35 but for my Casta D8 floorstanders I am very curious to try the sistrum Apprentice SP-SA-103's. The sistrum footprint seems to
fit well with the Casta's and I will be ordering a pair very soon.
I suggest if you tried the SP Ultra SS's and liked the sound, give the Oritons SC-35's a try, you may prefer them at a way cheaper price point. |
Bacardi, I had never heard of them. They look like another effort to find the magic mix of resonance frequencies. I see there is a distributor in Canada, but cannot find if anyone sells them in the US. |
The designer, apparently his line of work was on submarines isolating the computer from the submarine. So resonance control for sure but compared to the Stillpoints, I did a 2 hour comparison back and forth with the Oritons and definitely the Oritons did more better. My conclusions aren't even the subject to resonances, they are better defined and isolated frequencies(bass, midrange,highs) . |
what does the star sound apprentice do for the sound stage?, I under stand what it does for sharpness, does the sound become up front and personal? |
Bacardi, I suppose everyone's opinions rest on what the hear. Were I able to get some of the Oritons, I would try them. Until that they seem just another mix of resonance frequencies that seek to cope with the bad influence of vibrations on circuits, and having tried probably fifty different such devices, I will stick with the StillPoints or the Star Sound Apprentice platform that seek coupling rather than isolation. |
Audiolabyrinth, at least with the HFCables, you hear a very sharp leading edge and the decay of notes in the recording studio or hall. Lead singers do sound to be right in the plane of your speakers. They sound present. |
Thankyou TBG, The vocals are suppose to be where you said, however, I like my music layered, not all of it hitting me at one time, most of the music should be behind the vocals, and then, depending how the micing of the recording is, every part of the sound should have it's own place within the soundstage, Have you had any exsperience with a product of any kind presenting a forward sound stage?, if so, you know exactly what I am talking about, It does not sound natural, I looked on the star sound Apprentice web site, do you have a 103?, Is the price given for two or each, this product actually appears to be price real world instead of the fanatical pricing of most of what's in our hobby!, I have interest of the apprentice because of pricing and all that all of you said here, charles1dad said he would put the star sound product up there with his best equipment, that was impressive for him to say that,I also wanted to know if the star sound gives a slightly musical warm sound or a cold dry sound?, cheers. |
Thankyou TBG, The vocals are suppose to be where you said, however, I like my music layered, not all of it hitting me at one time, most of the music should be behind the vocals, and then, depending how the micing of the recording is, every part of the sound should have it's own place within the soundstage, Have you had any exsperience with a product of any kind presenting a forward sound stage?, if so, you know exactly what I am talking about, It does not sound natural, I looked on the star sound Apprentice web site, do you have a 103?, Is the price given for two or each, this product actually appears to be price real world instead of the fanatical pricing of most of what's in our hobby!, I have interest of the apprentice because of pricing and all that all of you said here, charles1dad said he would put the star sound product up there with his best equipment, that was impressive for him to say that,I also wanted to know if the star sound gives a slightly musical warm sound or a cold dry sound?, cheers. |
The Apprentice will not change the inherent character of your system generally speaking(Shindo and Krell won't suddenly be indistinguishable). Due to its effectiveness managing vibration and resonance you'll hear more of what you have. As I mentioned earlier, the resolving power is improved (but in a natural sense not hifi, at least in my system). The sense of a live presence is increased, subtitles and nuances are uncovered, so realism is better. The fullness of tone, body and overtones actually improved (and these were already a system strength prior to the Apprentice). If your system has good depth and layering it will only improve. Basically all the benefits of increased low level information will be apparent.
Charles, |
Audiolabyrinth, verbal descriptions are useless. Get a listen to the HFCs. |
Thankyou charles1dad, your response was really good about the star sound apprentice, what model do you have?, what model is your recommendation? |
Keith, Mine are the SP-SA-103 model. Talk to Robert at Star Sound, he's friendly and will guide you properly for your individual needs.
Charles, |
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I think they recommend the SP-SA 103 with their 1.5 inched Audio Points. |
That is what I use as well. |
Thankyou everyone,thankyou for your hospitality as well, what do you use under the 103's?, plywood, footer disc?, why does star sound have the same size measurements for all the stands?, do you believe a 103 can support a 180 pound amp?, and still sound the way it was designed to?, or do you believe the 103 is best suited for speakers for best sound improvement? |
Yes, 1.5 inch Audio Points are used. |
Audiolabyrinth, only the audio points differ from between the models. All will support up to 800 pounds, the Audio Points go down as well as up. You don't need to put anything under the Platform. No the benefits are most noticable on electronic including dacs.
Visit their webpage for most of this information. |
Thankyou TBG, I am sorry if I got you mad the other day, cheers. |
I found the Apprentice and Sistrum stands have the biggest impact on speakers although they greatly benefit everything I have had them under.
But with my speakers...oh my!
I have my new speakers today with the Stillpoints and will compare to the Apprentice stands due in on Thursday. |
Thankyou everyone,thankyou for your hospitality as well, what do you use under the 103's?, plywood, footer disc?, why does star sound have the same size measurements for all the stands?, do you believe a 103 can support a 180 pound amp?, and still sound the way it was designed to?, or do you believe the 103 is best suited for speakers for best sound improvement? I use their brass discs to avoid damaging the cork flooring in my listening room. That being said, it is more ideal to spike your carpet and/or floor for room coupling. Those stands can support anything you can possibly throw at them and still operate at optimal capacity whether it be speakers or a dac. I find their effects more pronounced the more vibration you have at work (room>subs>speakers>tube amps>pre-amp>dac). |
I look forward to what you say Grannyring. |
Agear is correct in using the APCD2 coupling discs on his cork floor. You should also use these discs on hardwood,stone or tile floors. I prefer the sound benefit when using a coupling disc between the point tip and the bottom of the component. The coupling disc increases the surface area of the point tip by equalizing the mechanical impedance of the different surface materials. If you have carpet over a sub floor or over concrete I would always direct couple the point to the floor below. Tom..Star Sound Technologies |
Agear, I tried the Apprentices without the cups against the bottom of components and with them. Having them was somewhat better. I do also use them on my hardwood floors. I did try IsoClean feet instead of the Star Sound cups and heard no difference. I would imagine that not using the cups would be better on carpet.
I don't know whether it is the HFC ics, speaker wires, pcs, or the WGPC, the Star Sound Apprentices, the Koda K 10 preamp, or even the new Empirical Audio Legacy music server, but I'm playing louder, enjoying it more, and have had few complaints about the music being too loud. |
That's good TBG, any time we can play loud and enjoy the tunes is great, makes me feel young again when I crank the volume, and It sounds very real, then I get to see the visual show of dishes rattling and walls vibrating, Oh well, Kid at heart! |
Ok here are my initial impressions of the Stillpoints Ultra SS footers vs. the Star Sound Apprentice stand with 4 sets of 1.5 inch Audio Points. My new speaker is the Lahave Khara. These speakers came with Stillpoints as Stillpoints uses Lahave as their reference speaker.
First and most obvious thing I noticed took me completely by surprise. The volume increased without me touching the volume knob setting. What? I said out loud. How can this be? No doubt about it however. The music has more energy, improved dynamic contrasts, and sharper leading edges.
The Stillpoints have a softer, rounder sound. I don't want to say more just yet, as I sear the sound is settling in as the Apprentice spends more time under the speaker. Things were a little too high energy at first, but after just two hours the sound is relaxing if you will.
I will add more comments tomorrow night. |
Thanks grannyring, nice read, I look forward to your impressions. |
Thanks grannyring, nice read, I look forward to your impressions. |
Bill, the SS stands take a couple of days to relax. They always sound a little edgy and forward at first blush.... |
agear, can you explain why?, reffering to you post about the ss taking a few days to sound better?, I do not understand that, they are made of material, not electrical componets like caps and tubes. |
Audiolabyrinth, I have noticed the same thing as Grannyring. As I understand it, the Audio Points flatten somewhat and adjust to the load and the steel platform also adjusts to the load. It really doesn't matter as what he says is true.
The speed and sharp leading edge is also characteristic but why? I cannot say that mechanical grounding makes much sense to my understanding of physics, but whatever is going on, works. |
Here is what I have encountered.
Cables take time to break in and so do mechanical grounding devices such as those we design. Energy is always in search of ground and when that point of contact is broken or moved it takes time to re establish that reference point. All materials reach a state of relaxation or a reduction of stress, that is what takes place and can be heard when you move a cable from one location to another.
Our designs carry over to real acoustic instruments and you can easily see and hear the ground point establish itself. During a cello performance when the instrument suddenly blooms acoustically on stage you know the reference has been established. Upon return from intermission the instrument takes a couple of minutes to find this reference point once again, you can hear this happen as well.
Speakers and electronics depending on their material and mass will take varying amounts of time to settle in and establish a a relaxed ground state. With an audio component on board we recommend 72 hours as a guide line for our products to establish their reference point. Tom. Star Sound Technologies.
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Tom please explain why the volume is actually up with your stand under my speaker. No doubt about it! Very interesting. |
I had a similar experience with the SP 101 platforms underneath my speakers. Robert had warned me in advance though. I experienced a loss of bass and bass voulume. I agree that it does indeed take a few days for the connection to settle in and start doing their magic. Well worth the wait. |
Thankyou TBG and Tom of star sound technologies,I understand and Believe what is said here now on the settle in period. |
There is a gain in apparent dynamics with just the Audio Point alone. The shelf between the two points increases the collection area of the tip. When all is mechanically grounded to a much higher mass such as a floor then energy migrates in that direction. The apparent increase in level and resolution comes from the enhanced direction provided by the reactive materials and shapes. What you are hearing is a signal more time coherent, one less corrupt from material storage influences and modulation. Tom. Star Sound Technologies. |
An update. The Stillpoints are very good indeed. I can we why they are so popular. They certainly work as advertised. I decided to sell them as I prefer the Apprentice stands. The Stillpoints do sound different folks. The Ultra SS footers still have a more rounded sound in the bass. The imaging can be spooky good at times with sounds appearing out of nowhere and hanging in a 3D space that is spooky cool. They cost $2000 for a set of eight so they better be good and they are.
The Star Sound Apprentice stands cost about half that with 8 of the 1.5 inch Audio Points per stand. The bass is now more apparent and the sound more relaxed as compared to sound with the stands under the speakers for a couple of hours. I must admit I had a hard time believing these things settle in, but they do indeed. The sound is now more natural and unforced.
Most areas of sonic performance are improved with the Apprentice stands as compared to the Stillpoints. Music has more life, energy and dynamic impact. Increased resolution and micro details are readily noticeable. Images are more razor sharp and resolved. Seems to be more decay and sparkle to the music and instruments.
The Stillpoints do this 3D imaging thing better. They are still softer sounding and rounder in the bass. Some will like this for sure.
It has been 48 hours now and I will report back at 72 hours. |
