There is a change to the Sound being presented that is most likely to take place when a MM Input is coupled to a Step Up Ancillary.
The more varieties of Ancillaries being trialled are likely to produce a variety of changes to the Sound being presented.
The Crux is, are any of the Perceived Changes to the Sound being Presented, an improvement on the Phon's performance or is the Phon' remaining very similar, with a few extra flavours being added ?
There is not much of a requirement needed to begin to experience the affects of a Permutation of a Phon' and Step Up Ancillary
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The only thing i will state is, does your pre amp or integrated amplifier have a phono stage, if it does not, then i would invest in a better phono stage, if it does have a mm phono stage than a step up transformer would be the way to go.
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My experience is that a Phonostage will not excel into a New Dimension by choosing Add On Partnering Ancillaries for the MM Input .
Attaching a SUT to a MM Input will increase the Options on how to replay a Vinyl Album with a MC Cartridge Only.
The SUT will present a different Sound Quality, and in many cases this is the option that users like to have a consideration and make a decision about.
From my experiences undertaken, usually a SUT is able to supply a further flavour to the capabilities of the Phonostage.
I am yet to experience a Phonostage that has undergone a Transformation from the attachment of a SUT, where it has been perceived as falling short in the Performance, to one that is seen to have now received a Ancillary that is now perceived as the fix all attachment.
A not too impressive Phon' will pretty much maintain that perception, albeit, with maybe a slightly different presentation.
A Impressive Phon' will usually maintain the perception of the qualities on offer, but again, with a slightly different presentation.
Adding a Different SUT's will also offer different perceptions to the Sound on offer.
I am fortunate to be able trial a variety of SUT's along side my owned models.
The SUT's Interface with a given Phonostage can vary considerably, so picking a SUT is a game of Trial, Selection or Rejection.
One thing that is very noticeable is the SUT can impact on the Sound Quality by adding a Richness and Perception of Weight.
Different Models will offer the perception of added Richness and Weight at differing perceivable levels.
Again drawing on my own experiences, I prefer a SUT's influence on a SS Phon' over a Built in MC Stage, this is limited to the SS Phon's I have owned and had demonstrations off, I can't hear them all.
With a Valve Input / Output Stage Phon', I can lean either way, a SUT with a slight Trait of Richness or a Head Amp compete closely and I can become very comfortable with both in use quite quickly.
The Head Amp's that I am able to use, have a Air and Lucidness in their presentation, they float that little bit more and are more ethereal.
It is not the antithesis of the SUT, but can show the SUT to have a bit of a Mud on their Wellington Boots
Very recently when using a owned Valve Hybrid Phon', I was quite happy with the SUT's and Head Amp's being used, these were more desirable than the built in MC Stage.
During the Trial the desire developed to keep the Head Amp over the SUT as the Ancillary for the extended listening to the Phon'.
What is most noticeable when swapping in out the Ancillaries and Phon's is how on one Phon' with one Ancillary, the Bass can recedes, and become quite a unwanted presentation.
A change of Ancillary and the Bass can becomes very noticeable as a comparison.
When using a different Phon' preconceived ideas are short lived as a Ancillary that is suspected to perform in a Certain way and not be the most impressive can become the Ancillary that is on Par with others that are offering most attractive impressions.
I am not a Bass orientated person, but when it becomes unusual and unfamiliar it is a detractor, and not desired to be maintained in such a presentation.
For the OP, I feel that Loans of Ancillaries that work with your MC are the best method to commence with.
Compare a Ancillary in on the MM Input to the Phon's Built In MC Stage.
That will allow for Comparison Numero Uno to be undertaken.
Leading on from this and few additional Loans, it is possible to commence to create a Short List and discover a Ancillary that produces a Interface that will be most suitable for your unique preferences.
Trying to arrange a Loan might require a Deposit, or a Favour from a not too distant fellow enthusiast.
Usually in my experience a offer of Social get together and a little Hospitality will produce a few SUT users keen to assist.
My Proposal will definitely aid you in the Search that is 'constantly looking for better'.
It might also help you to assess the real value of your Phon' within your Vinyl Chain, and reconsider the thought of it being a Weak Link.
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I did a little homework, reluctantly. Your phono stage provides 40db of gain in MM mode and 60db of gain in MC mode. You would need to use the MM inputs with an external SUT. That means you would need a SUT with a turns ratio of 1:10, just to get a total of 60db of gain via your MM inputs, which you already have via your MC inputs. (A 10X voltage gain is equal to the 20db difference between the two phono sections.) You would have to find a SUT with a higher turns ratio in order to benefit from any SUT in terms of gain. Moreover, I see that your phono stage uses just one tube, the 12AU7, which means it must use solid state devices for gain and may even have a bult-in 1:10 SUT at its MC inputs.
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I have three MC phono setups:
MAGI Phonomenal phono pre +
Live! MC-10 MC SUT
MAGI Phonomenal phono pre + Denon HA-1000
Allnic H1202
MAGI has two phono inputs.
MAGI + LIve! is just as good as Allnic.
Denon sounds a bit inferior to the other two.
If I were you, I would sell Vincent pho 701 and get Allnic.
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Let me guess what is going on here. In actual listening, you have no problem with gain. Isn’t that correct? But apparently you looked at some chart or read someone else’s opinion and decided that you must need more gain, that that must be the problem, even though you do not perceive a problem with gain. Whatever is the case, you cannot assess the need for more gain simply by looking at the gain of your MC phono section. You also need to know the additional gain added by your line stage or the high level section of your full function preamplifier. After that you also need to know the input sensitivity of your amplifier. All of these things affect your perception of gain and the sound pressure levels you will get from your speaker. Of course the efficiency of your speaker in converting watts of power into sound pressure is another factor determining the gain quotient of your system. Someone else can look at a chart or do a back of the envelope calculation and tell you that 60db is marginal gain for your cartridge, but by itself that doesn’t mean a thing. If you are happy with the sound pressure you are getting from your speakers, then you do not need more gain. Like Miller carbon said, perhaps you would be happier with a better sounding phono stage, not necessarily a higher gain phono stage or the addition of a SUT. A SUT is just a transformer. It adds to signal voltage while reducing signal current by a proportional fraction. The added gain is directly related to the turns ratio of the transformer. Any manufacturer will state that somewhere in the literature supplied with the transformer. But before you were to buy one, you would have to do more homework and decide what turns ratio is needed for your system. To do that you need to take into account the gain afforded by the moving magnet section of your phono stage, not the MC section. You can read about the use of a step up transformer on the Internet. There are many good sites for that. In my opinion, unless you really are lacking in gain, you really do not need a step up transformer in your system. |
Question isn't the dumb one. It's another way to tell what you'll get.
Although you have to match 2 things per once - step up ratio and impedance.
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Maybe a dumb question, but let’s say I went with an SUT. I’ve noticed that some SUT’s do not specify how much gain is added, it only shows the coil winding ratio. Is this another way of telling me how much gain would be added to the chain? And if so how would you convert it? |
The assertion is that MM phono-pre is more easy to make than
(complex) MC -pre. The other is ''the higher the amplification the
higher distortions''. $ 600 preamp does not imply ''bad preamp''.
There are ''only MM'' kinds. SUT like Denon S1 can improve
the sound of an ''poor man'' system. In addition Denon produced
a speical cartridge for this SUT because of SUT's succes. The
cart is DL-S1 and can be get for less than $1000.
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I am not against SUT's when implemented by designer as part of the system. But that is a far cry from the typical consumer who buys a 3rd party SUT and installs it with their phono preamp because it doesn't have enough gain. I believe that boosting the gain is the only reason to have the SUT. I've done it before many yrs back but it was a patch for a problem of lack of gain with a MM phono preamp. So what am I missing?
I can't imagine adding a $1k Denon SUT to a $600 phono preamp. That just seems wrong headed. With the extra cable you will have even more expense. That $1100-1200 can go a long way towards a better phono preamp. Why boost an inferior signal when for the same $$$ you can get a better quality signal with proper boost? Am I missing something? |
You guys are profligate spenders of other people’s money. Assume the OP likes his cartridge. He also says his problem is not lack of gain. He’s looking for a a phono stage upgrade. Trot out the usual suspects that have sufficient gain for his cartridge: Allnic 1201 or 1202, Herron, Chinook, many solid state units, and yadayada. |
Hana SL mc cartridge ($750) + a Bellari SUT (~$500) into the MM input of the Vincent will be significantly better than the Soundsmith. No need to immediately replace the Vincent! |
It depends from the output of your cart(s). 60 dB amplification is
certainly not sufficient for low output carts (bellow 0,3 mV).
I would recomend Denon AU-S1. Excelent SUT for about $1000
second hand (new $3000). It is 40 Ohms but can be used by each
low outpur cart indempendant from its impedance.
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Ironically, the Allnic 1202 comes by its high gain via a complex built-in SUT system. Not that there's anything wrong with that but it does beg the question of recommending a high gain phono stage.
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This company was introduced yesterday in another thread. I have not heard their equipment so I can’t say how good it is. Others endorsed it. and it does have more gain. FWIW I am using 60db phono preamp with a Zyx 4D .24mv. I’m sure there are others. Alnic 1202 (?) comes to mind. http://www.thebestamp.com/Phono_Pre-Amps/P-1001.php |
You already have enough gain. What you don't have is enough phono stage. Listen to artemus_5 and skip the SUT and go straight to a better phono stage. Huge improvement. SUT will be a lateral, and depending on the interconnect maybe even go the wrong way.
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James, you need friends (audiophiles) in real life or dealers who can loan you gear to try. Remember that your line level preamp also have gain (if it’s not passive). When you add SUT you connect it to MM input. Headamp can ne better than SUT, for example ZYX CPP-1 headamp is agood alternative to any SUT.
I prefer solid state phono stages, tubes are noisy, microphonic and they do not last forever. I can’t recommend tube phono stages. |
Unfortunately I do not have the ability to try a SUT or a phono pre. My current phonostage only has 60db of gain and my cartridge suggests 62-64db of gain. I was looking at a rogue ares which would have plenty of gain. Do either of you have tube phono preamps in the $2,000 that you would suggest? |
If you have enough gain now, then IMO a step up is just another piece of equipment lengthening the signal path rather than shortening it. This is just the opposite of good design principles. The phono preamp is as important as the Turntable itself. It handles the smallest of signals. So spend the $$$ on an upgrade which is a new phono preamp, not a SUT. |
I hope you can borrow a SUT to try if you want, or even a phono stage.
You can always buy more different cartridges if you are looking for you type of sound. A cartridge that actually work without external SUT or Headamp, because some of them cost more than a better cartridge!
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