Step Up transformer

this is one of those ideas that works really well In the simulated world where an ideal  2:1 stepdown nets a 2X increase in output voltage.  Real world reality of greater than 0 input Z of the current stage and DCR's of the windings makes the actual measured gain from a stepdown feeding a current stage a fair bit less than expected.  I did net about a 3dB increase in output from my one go at this with a 4:1 but the current stage was less than ideal.   I ended up going for a 1:1 at the input of the current amp since the possibility of DC offset from the complimentary Jfets I was using is a very real problem.

dave

Of morbid curiosity, a step down transformer will work and in theory give you more output when feeding transimpedance stages.  Want to try a 40Ω denon 103 with your current stage?  Run it into a 4:1 step down transformer and you net 4X the current and a 3-4Ω  source impedance.

Very interesting! Would the Grail have enough gain at 3 - 4 ohms to counteract the reduced ~ 0.06mV output at that point? And how does one calculate gain from a transimpedance stage - is it directly related to the source impedance? And probably also depends on real input impedance (not 0) of the stage.

Cool idea!

But I don’t think the Grail lacks sufficient gain for the cartridges listed. The motivation toward a SUT appears to be purely to enhance SQ. Although mating a 40 ohm cartridge to the Grail may be a source of dissatisfaction to begin with.

I have the VDH Grail SB transimpedence (current) phono stage to drop the noise floor, not sure if I have to purchase another phono stage (voltage) in order to try a SUT.

a SUT will not work with the grail.  Of morbid curiosity, a step down transformer will work and in theory give you more output when feeding transimpedance stages.  Want to try a 40Ω denon 103 with your current stage?  Run it into a 4:1 step down transformer and you net 4X the current and a 3-4Ω  source impedance.

dave

Yes, you definitely would need a conventional voltage driven phono with MM capability in order to insert a SUT into your system. But the VdH Grail is reputed to be superb, so I don’t know why you’d even consider it. On the other hand, I personally have never heard the Grail or your system.

I’ve been wondering the same thing, whether to try a quality SUT.  My carts are Lyra Etna, VDH Van Cru, Aida Mammoth Gold, Koetsu Rosewood Sig Plat, Koetsu Coralstone D.  I have the VDH Grail SB transimpedence (current) phono stage to drop the noise floor, not sure if I have to purchase another phono stage (voltage) in order to try a SUT. I was thinking starting with a Koetsu SUT for my Koetsus. 

" I’ll never need to upgrade. "

If it's a different presentation you're curious about, then a vacuum  tube unit is what must hear in your setup.

The "better" models seem to sound more "organic" than an equivalent SS unit-IMO.

I use a Cinemag 1254 based SUT and I think the results are wonderful. Running it at 20:1 with an old Koetsu Black, lots of drive and loads of detail. I was having a hiss problem with my phono pre, lots of noise at 60dB max gain on my MS Phonomena. That's eliminated now in addition to fidelity gains, the Phonomena doing much better at 40dB min gain. My SUT has adjustable gain and can do 40:1, so maybe my next cartridge can be the AT-ART7 with just 0.12mV output. 

IMO, the reasons for using a SUT are as above, you need more gain because of a LOMC, you have a MM only phono stage, or if your phono stage uses inferior transformers/active gain stage for MC, and also if you want to match cart loading.

I use my Hashimotos mainly because the Modwright PH9.0 uses inexpensive Lundahls in the MC side.  I feel I get better sound staging.  

Is it 'better?'  Not by a large margin, but I already had the HM-7s when I upgraded and just kept them in line.

I don't see any transformers in the nude pics of the 526; my guess would be the MC side has active gain.  An active stage is not a bad thing, but me personally prefer the simplicity of the SUT instead of sending the signal through another amplification circuit.  Just my preference.  OTOH, a SUT is creating another connection, something others might try to avoid.

If it was me, I would try one, used, so I could get my money back.

I mean you never know until you try!

GL, and as always, YMMV

Thank you lewm. It is an outstanding preamp, sounds incredible. I’ll never need to upgrade. 

FWIW, all phono stages ever made, whether solid state or tube, operate in class A. When manufacturers brag about that, it’s hype.

I read the S’phile review of the ML 526. That is a very high end very expensive preamp that tested very well according to John Atkinson. It offers phono gain choices from 53db (MM) to 83db (high gain MC) in 10db increments. There’s no way you need a SUT with that unit for any real world cartridge ever made. 

Thanks Mulveling for your response.  I am happy with my Cadenza Bronze and my setup altogether,  Levinson no.526 preamp with class a phono stage, Levinson no.534 Amp, Revel speakers and Project Xpression10 turntable. We are all looking for the next tweak to improve our listening experience and hence my question on this forum. I heard SUTs can make an improvement,  but everyone has a different opinion. 

This is just my personal preference, but if I find that the sound from a good LOMC is too rich or too lean or whatever, to the point that I can’t tolerate it, my course of action would be to change either the cartridge or the phono, rather then to introduce a SUT as a bandaid for SQ. I’d use a SUT if I wanted to mate a suitable LOMC to a great MM phono stage. In other words, to increase total gain.

@lewm That’s the question for each of us - what constitutes "too far gone" in the sonic balance of a cart, and does this carry over beyond our personal perspective, or even our current downstream chain.

I’ve learned time and time again the upper line Ortofon MCs (Cadenza Bronze being the exception) are just too dry and lean for my tastes. Multiple downstreams, multiple phono stages, SUTs, tonearms etc - I just had to give it up. Then on the other side you have Koetsu: I’ve had some downstream configs where they’re just way way too damn warm and thick, echoing the common complaints of this line - and other downstreams where the result is just spectacular, untouched by any other combinations I’ve ever put together. When you "unlock" this, it’s magic. I’m glad I didn’t deny myself that joy just because they were way too damn warm in other contexts :)

This is just my personal preference, but if I find that the sound from a good LOMC is too rich or too lean or whatever, to the point that I can’t tolerate it, my course of action would be to change either the cartridge or the phono, rather then to introduce a SUT as a bandaid for SQ. I’d use a SUT if I wanted to mate a suitable LOMC to a great MM phono stage. In other words, to increase total gain.

Your Cadenza Bronze is one of those cartridges which works extremely well with either an active MC gain stage or a SUT (I’ve tried both with this cart). You can really go either way depending on preference. If you’re looking for a huge change or improvement, then I’d say no, it’s not a cartridge that benefits as much from a SUT as some of the much lower output models (as noted by @mattmiller ) - unless you don’t love the sound of your existing MC stage. But MC stages themselves can vary a lot - for example the JFET MC stages in ARC Reference 3SE and Herron VTPH-2A fall sonically on the "lean & clean" / neutral side, whereas Hagerman’s Piccolo and Sonic Frontiers Phono 1 sound warmer / sweeter.

Many of us choose SUTs because of the more warm, weighty full-bodied sound and sweeter midrange many good SUTs render (but not all - for example, Lundahl LL1931 is not warm). However, the Cadenza Bronze in particular already carries *some* of these qualities by virtue of its warmer voicing in its line, probably due to the tapered aluminum cantilever. If you still want more of this, a SUT would be a good choice. May be hard to say until you try it :)

It you try a SUT then ~ 15x is ideal for that cart, but anything in the range of 10x to 20 will work great. Any CineMag SUT with the blue labels (Sky, 1254, 1131) is a pretty good quintessential SUT sound to try. Not a fan of the red-label 3440 - I don’t think this one is very good. Modwright is working on a new SUT box too, I believe with a custom CineMag blue.

If you moved to a Windfeld Ti with 0.2mV output, I'd say a good SUT helps a LOT there, to keep noise floor down and to inject some much needed warmth & body to that cart's sound. 

What do you mean by “a big difference “? What is the output of your cartridge, and what is the max gain of your phono stage? That’s how to begin to think about whether a SUT might be beneficial.

Step ups are for super low output MC cartridges putting out .2mv! Even then most good phono pre amps can handle that low of a input. If your turning up the volume on your main amp too much then Increase the output on your phono pre amp or get one that allows you to adjust (most have at least 2). You shouldnt need a step up. 

Matt M