SS or Tube Preamps with Dual-Balanced outputs

Thanks Dob!

Joule-Electra LA-450 ME, issued a few weeks ago.
Superb!

Thanks for your response and sorry for the delay in responding. I've not been on A-gon due to work in quite a few days; it's great to hear from you!

Jeff Rowland Pre info as follows:

** Criterion:
Main out: 2 pair Balanced (XLR), 2 pair Unbalanced (RCA)
Record out: 1 pair Balanced (XLR), 1 pair Unbalanced (RCA)
Note that Price of $12,000 used is hypothetical. . . there have been no used Criterions on the market yet as far as I know, and I'm not selling mine (grins!) .

** Capri:
1 x Pair Balanced Line Level, 1 x Pair Unbalanced Line Level

** Concerto
Outputs....................................................................................................................................2 x Pair Balanced Line Level

G.

Here are those with balanced in to out.
** denotes balanced from input to output.
? denotes not known whether balanced throughout.

?Accuphase C-2810 (2 xlr)
?Accuphase C-2410 (2 xlr)
**Aestehtix Janus (2 xlr)$6,500 --$3,810
**Aesthetix Calypso (2 xlr) $4,500 --$2,840
**AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option) $4,750 --$2,500
**AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option) $13,000 --$8,000
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option) $2,095 --$1,150
**Audio Research LS26 (2 xlr) $6,000 --$4,000
**Audio Research Reference 3 (2 xlr) $10,000 --$5,500
Audionet Pre G2 (2 xlr)
Audiovalve Eklipse (unbalanced at 1 xlr) $4,600
**Ayre KX-R (2 xlr) $18,500 --$10,000
**BAT 51 SE (? xlr) $9,000 --$4,300
**BAT 52 SE (2 xlr) $10,500 --$6,800
**BAT REX (2 xlr) $20,000 --$12,600
?Belles 28A (No info, The 21 has 1 xlr unbalanced)
**Cary slp05 (on special order) $7,500 --$4,000
**Classe CP700 (2 xlr) $7,000 --$3,750
**Classe CP500 (1xlr) $3,500 --$2,000
?Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)(1 xlr output)
?Jeff Rowland Capri (option? 1 Bal-XLR, 1 Unb-RCA std) $2,700 --$2,000
?Jeff Rowland Concerto (std) $3,900 --$2,600
?Jeff Rowland Criterion (std) $18,000 --$12,000
?Herron Audio (not balanced)
**Mcintosh C500 (2 xlr) c500t $12,000 --$7,600
?Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
?Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC, Appears to have 2 xlr)
?Pass Labs XP20 (1 xlr) $8,600 --$5,300
?Plinius Tautoro (2 xlr) $8,350 --$5,200
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
?Rogue Audio Hera (2 xlr)
**SimAudio P7 $5,500 --$4,000
**Simaudio P8 (2 xlr)$11,000 --$7,600
?Sonic Frontiers Line3 $5,000 --$2,400
?Sonic Frontiers line3 se $6,000 --$3,200
?Supratek Dual Cabernet (appears as 1 xlr)
**VAC Phi Beta (2 xlr) $15,000 --$7,500
**VTL 7.5 (2 xlr) $10,000 --$7,000
**VTL 7.5 sII $16,000 --$8,800
**?YS Audio BALANCED A2 (2 xlr) a2se $1,500 --$750

Well there is a list with fully balanced pre's noted by the asterisk.
Please feel free to correct any mistakes, I visited the websites of these companies to assertain the fully balanced feature.

Pedrillo/Guido: Great to hear from you. Thanks for updating the list to answer a key capability I am looking for that I already enjoy in my CP-700. I had reviewed the Esoteric early materials on the C-03 and believe the ** designation is accurate. That would also make alot of sense given their delivery of fully balanced, dual-mono capabilities from start to finish with the P-03/P-03U/D-03 units. Have a great weekend!

The updated list is now;

Here are those with balanced in to out.
** denotes balanced from input to output.
? denotes not known whether balanced throughout.

?Accuphase C-2810 (2 xlr)
?Accuphase C-2410 (2 xlr)
**Aestehtix Janus (2 xlr)
**Aesthetix Calypso (2 xlr)
**AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option)
**AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option)
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
**Audio Research LS26 (2 xlr)
**Audio Research Reference 3 (2 xlr)
Audionet Pre G2 (2 xlr)
Audiovalve Eklipse (unbalanced at 1 xlr)
**Ayre KX-R (2 xlr)
**BAT 51 SE (? xlr)
**BAT 52 SE (2 xlr)
**BAT REX (2 xlr)
?Belles 28A (No info, The 21 has 1 xlr unbalanced)
**Cary slp05 (on special order)
**Classe CP700 (2 xlr)
**Classe CP500 (1xlr)
** Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)(1 xlr output)
** Jeff Rowland Capri 1 Bal-XLR, 1 Unb-RCA std)
** Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
** Jeff Rowland Criterion (std) 2 Bal XLR
?Herron Audio
**Mcintosh C500 (2 xlr)
?Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
?Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC, Appears to have 2 xlr)
?Pass Labs XP20 (1 xlr)
?Plinius Tautoro (2 xlr)
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
?Rogue Audio Hera (2 xlr)
**SimAudio P7 or P8 (2 xlr)
?Sonic Frontiers Line3
?Supratek Dual Cabernet (appears as 1 xlr)
**VAC Phi Beta (2 xlr)
**VTL 7.5 (2 xlr)
**?YS Audio BALANCED A2 (2 xlr)

Thanks Guidocorona.

Rowland components have been differentially balanced since at least early nineties. So much so that the TI Burr Brown OPA1632 module used in Capri and Criterion is a differentially balanced OP Amp. G.

Guidocorona,
Thanks for corrections, are you certain about the rowland gear, I read on their website transformer coupled, I don't know enough about circuitry so I may be wrong, but I thought that when preamp is not fully balanced it uses transformer in there to create a balanced output.
Please educate me.

Here's some correction for Esoteric and JRDG:

** Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)(1 xlr output)
** Jeff Rowland Capri 1 Bal-XLR, 1 Unb-RCA std)
** Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
** Jeff Rowland Criterion (std) 2 Bal XLR

Here are those with balanced in to out.
** denotes balanced from input to output.
? denotes not known whether balanced throughout.

?Accuphase C-2810 (2 xlr)
?Accuphase C-2410 (2 xlr)
**Aestehtix Janus (2 xlr)
**Aesthetix Calypso (2 xlr)
**AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option)
**AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option)
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
**Audio Research LS26 (2 xlr)
**Audio Research Reference 3 (2 xlr)
Audionet Pre G2 (2 xlr)
Audiovalve Eklipse (unbalanced at 1 xlr)
**Ayre KX-R (2 xlr)
**BAT 51 SE (? xlr)
**BAT 52 SE (2 xlr)
**BAT REX (2 xlr)
?Belles 28A (No info, The 21 has 1 xlr unbalanced)
**Cary slp05 (on special order)
**Classe CP700 (2 xlr)
**Classe CP500 (1xlr)
?Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)(1 xlr output)
?Jeff Rowland Capri (option? 1 Bal-XLR, 1 Unb-RCA std)
?Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
?Jeff Rowland Criterion (std)
?Herron Audio
**Mcintosh C500 (2 xlr)
?Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
?Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC, Appears to have 2 xlr)
?Pass Labs XP20 (1 xlr)
?Plinius Tautoro (2 xlr)
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
?Rogue Audio Hera (2 xlr)
**SimAudio P7 or P8 (2 xlr)
?Sonic Frontiers Line3
?Supratek Dual Cabernet (appears as 1 xlr)
**VAC Phi Beta (2 xlr)
**VTL 7.5 (2 xlr)
**?YS Audio BALANCED A2 (2 xlr)

Well there is a list with fully balanced pre's noted by the asterisk.
Please feel free to correct any mistakes, I visited the websites of these companies to assertain the fully balanced feature.

The Rowland stuff is great. Dave is right with this one!!

Ah well. . . you've got to admit that. . . it was "A Valiant Attempt" . . . to say it with the old game of Zork! G.

Guys....thanks for all of the help and extra info on the Capri to confirm what I had found online. Have a great weekend!

Every post is the same Bill.

nag this and Nag that.

Over and over and over.

Take a breath.

(smiles!) Guido

Own up Bill, I did.

Dave

Looks like my Capri has only 1 single pair of XLR balanced outputs. Manual seems to confirm only 1 pair of balanced outputs. Strike Capri for this application. Criterion won't have these limitations. . . at a uhrn. . . charmingly different price point.

G

>>then you'll need to read them completely and try to understand what you're talking about before opening your mouth<<

Hey Dave,
Seems you ought to heed your own advice regarding the balanced output question.

Good luck to you.

My Capri has one balanced output and one single ended output. As pictured in the link.

http://www.jeffrowland.com/Capri-back.htm

I vertically bi-amp using two Edge NL 12.1 amps. I need two simultaneously active balanced XLR outputs as my NL12.1's are built with XLR inputs and I'd like to avoid using one pair of RCA->XLR converters not to mention the benefit of utilizing two balanced outputs as opposed 1 bal and 1 un-bal. The Classe CP-700 I utilize does a great job currently in this regard...

No problem at all Zephyr. Let's ask Guido to look at the back of his Capri. I thought I saw two balanced outs, but I may have counted an In.

BTW, just curious, how do you plan to use the second outputs? Will you be comparing amps or running a long run to another room, or what?

Dave

DCstep: my apologies for missing the add of the Capri to the list; it was not intentional. I was trying to take an 'audio sanity break' from an overly busy day at work and added some entries but missed yours. Again, my apologies.
I just took a look at the Capri,...it only seems to offer one set of balanced XLR outputs and 1 unbalanced RCA; does JRDG convert the RCA to a fully balanced XLR 2nd output set as an option?

Guido: Thanks for the thoughts on the fun behind evaluating all these different options and the various families of sound characteristics present amongst the various options.

Sting: Thanks for your thoughts on Ayre. I have friends (albeit other side of the country so cannot go listen) that are wild about Ayre mono's, digital players and the pre-amp listed above....

Audiofeil: Thanks for the information you've shared with me during the times we've talked (2 I think) over the past year or so). I hope all is well in Western NY!

To All: This continues to be a very good learning experience for me and I'm grateful for all the help, experience-based advice, etc...that you've all given.

The current (corrected) list is currently;

Accuphase C-2810
Accuphase C-2410
Aestehtix Janus
Aesthetix Calypso
AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option)
AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option)
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
Audio Research LS26
Audio Research Reference 3
Audionet Pre G2
Audiovalve Eklipse
Ayre KX-R
BAT 51 SE
BAT 52 SE
BAT REX
Belles 28A
Cary slp05 (on special order)
Classe CP700 and CP500
Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)
Jeff Rowland Capri (option? 1 Bal-XLR, 1 Unb-RCA std)
Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
Jeff Rowland Criterion (std)
Herron Audio
Mcintosh C500
Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC)
Pass Labs XP20
Plinius Tautoro
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
Rogue Audio Hera
SimAudio P7 or P8
Sonic Frontiers Line3
Supratek Dual Cabernet
VAC Phi Beta
VTL 7.5
YS Audio BALANCED A2

Every post is the same Dave.

Rowland this and Rowland that.

Over and over and over.

Take a breath.

Can't get much better than Ayre.

"great imaging and other desirable sonic attributes?"

Zephir, that's an impressive list that you have put together. What makes things so deliciously complicated is that "one man's guerrilla is another man's freedom fighter". . . or in our terms, what is one audiophile's desirable attribute is likely to be someone else's sonic flaw. Very much like DCSTEP, I am extremely fond of the JRDG Capri and Criterions for their extension, top to bottom linearity, and harmonic exposure. On the other hand, a high degree of musical linearity is not necessarily of everyone's taste. Some may very well prefer the slightly warmer sound of an ARC Ref 3 for example, or the much warmer presentation of a BAT VK51SE, just to make a couple of examples. G.

Look at Zephyr24069's post on 11/7/08. It listed other JRDG products, but not the Capri and he addressed me and a couple of others directly.

If you're going to appoint yourself as thread policeman, then you'll need to read them completely and try to understand what you're talking about before opening your mouth.

Dave

Thanks Dave but I think you did that on 11/4/08.

Should we expect another post on 11/10/08 covering the same topic again?

Good luck to you.

Get a life Bill. There's no need to follow me around and try to negate everything I say. You just hurt your own image.

I was merely trying to complete Zephyr24069's recap list to include the current Rowland products applicable to the thread.

Dave

The head JRDG cheerleader continues his quest for thread dominance.

You left off the Jeff Rowland Capri, which I think is Jeff's best value.

Dave

Cappuccino/Pedrillo/Dcstep: Apologies for the late replies...I've been off the boards for several days due to work and 'life' time commitments. I appreciate the feedback you've given above.

The revised list is currently;

Accuphase C-2810
Accuphase C-2410
Aestehtix Janus
Aesthetix Calypso
AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option)
AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option)
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
Audio Research LS26
Audio Research Reference 3
Audionet Pre G2
Audiovalve Eklipse
Ayre KX-R
BAT 51 SE
BAT 52 SE
BAT REX
Belles 28A
Cary slp05 (on special order)
Classe CP700 and CP500
Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)
Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
Jeff Rowland Criterion (std)
Herron Audio
Mcintosh C500
Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC)
Pass Labs XP20
Plinius Tautoro
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
Rogue Audio Hera
SimAudio P7 or P8
Sonic Frontiers Line3
Supratek Dual Cabernet
VAC Phi Beta
VTL 7.5
YS Audio BALANCED A2

Zephyr,

I used to own the Simaudio P-5 and now have the 5.3 pre.Although the P-5 was an excellent pre , the new 5.3 is much better and is even sonically better than the LE version of the P-5. The best thing is that the price is much cheaper than the previous P-5.

According to Simaudio going to the P-7 would give you an added 15% sound enhancement but at a substancially higher cost. Hope this helps.

Cheers

The Jeff Rowland Design Group Capri is a bargain with dual balanced outputs.

Dave

Where's that list?
Just kidding, but I am curious to know.

Here are some more preamps having dual balanced output capabilities:

Cary slp05 (on special order)
Jeff Rowland Concerto (std)
Jeff Rowland Criterion (std)

Good idea....I'll get to this as soon as I can assemble the info. If those of you can contribute what you know, I'll fix the list. BTW, Classe and Esoteric are both dual-mono and fully balanced from input to output. Thanks!

Zephyr24069,
Just wondering if I would be asking too much if a list of those that are balanced from input to output only, and create a seperate list of those that are not balanced throughout.
Thanks
Atma-sphere are balanced all the way.
So is aesthetix.

Thanks Vladimir! Updated list (now sorted, finally!);

Accuphase C-2810
Accuphase C-2410
Aestehtix Janus
Aesthetix Calypso
AtmaSphere Music Preamplifier MP3 (option)
AtmaSphere New Music Preamplifier MP1 Mk. III (option)
Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
Audio Research LS26
Audio Research Reference 3
Audionet Pre G2
Audiovalve Eklipse
Ayre KX-R
BAT 51 SE
BAT 52 SE
BAT REX
Belles 28A
Classe CP700 and CP500
Esoteric C03 PreAmp (new)
Herron Audio
Mcintosh C500
Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC)
Pass Labs XP20
Plinius Tautoro
Promitheus Audio Reference Ccore TVC (option)
Rogue Audio Hera
SimAudio P7 or P8
Sonic Frontiers Line3
Supratek Dual Cabernet
VAC Phi Beta
VTL 7.5
YS Audio BALANCED A2

Accuphase C-2810, C-4110; Ayre KX-R.

Thanks everyone! As of today, the combined list is;

- Herron Audio
- Pass Labs XP-20
- Plinius Tautoro
- Atma-Sphere Music Preamplifier MP-3 (option)
- Atma-Sphere New Music Preamplifier MP-1 Mk. III (option)
- Aesthetix Calypso
- Aestehtix Janus
- SimAudio P7 or P8
- Sonic Frontiers Line3
- Audio Research LS26
- Audio Research Reference 3
- Audiovalve Eklipse
- BAT REX
- BAT 52 SE
- BAT 51 SE
- Mcintosh C500
- Belles 28-A
- Audionet Pre G2
- VAC Phi Beta
- VTL 7.5
- YS Audio BALANCED A2
- Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
- Rogue Audio Hera
- Promitheus Audio Reference C-core TVC (option)
- Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
- Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC)
- Esoteric C-03 Pre-Amp (new)
- Classe CP-700 and CP-500

Dgad, Pedrillo, Analog1998: Thank you all very much for your feedback!

YS Audio BALANCED A2 W 2 balanced output.

VTL 7.5 is fully balanced w 2 balanced outputs. Also a lot of balanced inputs (I think almost all can be either balanced or SE). Having compared it to many very fine preamps it is an imaging champ with the widest soundstage of any preamp I have heard. Depending on your amp the gain might be too much on the Mk 1 but the Mk2 is a better preamp w less gain, and works into systems better. Very natural sounding. I am not sure about the 6.5 if it has 2 sets of balanced outputs but it is close in sound & worthwhile to investigate if it does. I might be biased but I did compare it too several top preamps with great success.

Zephyr,
no it's just a p-5.
But I understand the p-5.3 is a killer, never heard it though!

BAT VK-51SE, check classifieds.

Pedrillo: Thanks for the info. The P-5 is a discontinued model, correct? I've also heard the P-5LE and Celeste 5002 were great designs. Did you ever get a chance to listen to those or is your P5 an LE? Thanks again!

My only extensive experience is with simaudio's p-5 preamp, which is fully balanced. Unfortunately though it only has one balanced input, but it is an excellent preamp no doubt. No listener fatigue, except maybe when played too loud but that could be said with most other preamps or components. I whole heartily recommend it, just consider matching of components is critical at this level of performance. Now I am using the atma-sphere m60 amps, before i was using sim's w-5 power amp, and I could see using a tube preamp would serve me well with the m60's.

You are welcome; I am glad to hear that it helped.

I've heard the same on Atma-Sphere. I believe the
SimAudio P7 and P8 are as well. My Classe CP-700
is full balanced and dual-mono for future reference.

If you come across any of these and can share your listening
experience, please let me know.

According to the Esoteric webiste, they are about to (or already) have introduce the C-03 full balanced dual-mono pre-amp built to the same specs, etc...as the P03, D03 and G-0Rb separates. There is a presentation on their site with some interesting photos and marketing bullets.

That makes the list;

- Herron Audio
- Pass Labs XP-20
- Plinius Tautoro
- Atma-Sphere Music Preamplifier MP-3 (option)
- Atma-Sphere New Music Preamplifier MP-1 Mk. III (option)
- Aesthetix Calypso
- Aestehtix Janus
- SimAudio P7 or P8
- Sonic Frontiers Line3
- Audio Research LS26
- Audio Research Reference 3
- Audiovalve Eklipse
- BAT REX
- BAT 52 SE
- Mcintosh C500
- Belles 28-A
- Audionet Pre G2
- VAC Phi Beta
- Audio Horizons TP 2.1 (option)
- Rogue Audio Hera
- Promitheus Audio Reference C-core TVC (option)
- Music First Audio MK II Preamplifier (TVC)
- Music First Audio Reference Preamplifier (TVC)
- Esoteric C-03 Pre-Amp (new)
- Classe CP-700 and CP-500

Zephyr24069,
Thanks for compiling that list of preamps with balanced outputs.
It would help some of us if those with balanced circuits from input to output would be noted.
One I know of that is fully balanced from input to output is atma-sphere!

Zephyr24069, our preamps have balanced inputs, even for the phono, which is actually a balanced source. The internal circuitry is fully differential and balanced from input to output.