Arj, this sounds to me like it could be be a cable problem, not a problem with the speakers, per se, IMHO. Out of the box I was disappointed with my Merlins until I chose the right cabling and plugs for them. Now they sound amazing. If you feed them with cables that are "bright" then "bright" will come out the other end. I have found that it takes a lot of experimenting with cables and plugs to get it right with the Merlins -- ICs, SCs and PCs. I was amazed at how much their sound changed as I changed cabling. It seems like their ability to deliver improved sound is limitless -- only limited by what they are fed with. |
Paul
There is a pair of deHavilland GM-70's on agon. I don't know of anything that would sound better.
They won't heat your house however.
Jim |
Ok, tweeter aside, back to the OP!
I've recently tried a Luxman L-590aII integrated on my VSM-MXR speakers and thought the pairing very interesting. Like the Sugden, the Luxman class-A sound might be considered by some to be a bit euphonic, but that said, it was a fine companion.
I'd be interested in finding a nice, linear grain-free amp/pre combo that has great extension without sacrificing the mids. Doesn't have to be a "tube-replacement", but that'd be nice. LOL. |
I have found that my amplifier is just the beginning of the story with my Merlins. Too much emphasis is placed on the amplifier here without talking about the synergy of the Merlins with cabling and plugs, IMHO. The amplifier does not stand alone nor do the Merlins. They are both only as good as the cabling that is fed into them and the cabling that comes out of them, as well as the CDP. There is a huge difference to be heard with the Merlins depending on the cabling attached to them, assuming you have a good amp and a good CDP in your system.
I understand when one is quickly tempted to ascribe any short-comings in the sound to the Merlins or the amplifier or the CD player when, in fact, those short-comings are often due to cabling and plugs. Before I upgraded my cabling and plugs I was ascribing short-comings in the sound of my system to one or another of its components. Having heard the sound improve greatly with changes in cabling and plugs I realize that it was not the components that were at fault. I was at fault for not realizing that cabling and plugs are also components. Not having the "right" cabling and plugs for your system brings the system down to the weakest link in the chain. |
imho, the room/treatments, the speakers, the cables and connections, sources, line level and amplification with good clean ac is my order of preference/importance. they are placed in the order of the biggest possible change in sound for the least amount of money spent.
food for thought.
best, bobby at merlin |
Would you be comfortable recommending particular room treatment products? or would you rather send as a private e-mail? I always notice your room treatments at the shows, but never took note of what you were actually using. When I brought bass traps for behind the speakers, and side absorbing panels for early reflections, I would say that was by far and away the most signdicant change in sound from any other changes of have made around the VSMs. |
agreed paul, the room is most important especially to get it tuned to the way your speaker radiates energy. you must get it to the point where there is minimal reflected energy at the seating position, at least for my products. at shows you have seen drapes used to great advantage behind the speakers, room tunes for the early/primary reflection points and their corner tunes for damping mirrors and corners where the walls meet the ceiling.
it is like a traveling treatment show. i have used these for 15 years at all the shows hence, the usual look to my rooms. same goes for the work room at home.
best, b |
I think it is one of the reasons your speakers do so consistently well at shows - the speaker has something to do with too:) |
I forgot room treatment probably because I take it for granted in my system. There are long drapes covering a large double window behind my Merlins and long drapes covering a large double window on an adjacent wall. If I were to add any other room treatment it would be ART from Synergistic Research. I basically agree with your list, Bobby. I might make one change. For me the speakers are #1. Once the main components are in place then working with the cables and connections will have the biggest impact on the sound, IMHO, along with a couple of special tweaks -- Synergistic Research MIGS and EVS Ground Enhancers. In the end what matters is the synergy of all of the elements in the system. Oh, I forgot one other thing -- the Synergistic Research PowerCell power conditioner. |
p, we try to take the effects of the room out of play to make the product refinements more easily understood.
it also makes for a great basis of judgement from year to year.
best, b
|
Not sure anyone is interested in total amp overkill, but a Class A Plinius amp managed to do ... ah ... something to the bass of my Merlins. Yeah. I had NO IDEA that 6" drivers could DO that. WOW.
BTW, GIK Acoustics is pretty good stuff. Affordable (by comparison), too.
As for audiophile cabling, yes, Bobby is a big proponent -- and I suppose anyone who's chatted with him knows his preferences for Cardas.
To be perfectly frank, I have had some experience with Merlin speakers and a whole loom of Golden Reference cabling, but was amazed by the difference between them and an all-Acoustic Zen loom. That is, I was amazed I couldn't tell them apart -- even when used with a Filarmonia (don't bother; I expect YMMV). I sold all my Cardas and bought a better DAC.
Stack ranking system system components:
1. Speakers: Merlins are *never* going to sound like Maggies.
2. Amp/Pre: want to maximize your speakers? Get an amp that is "better" (for your speakers).
3. Room Treatments: makes a difference, but whether that's a good change or not is debatable.
4. Source: you need to spend a lot to get very, very little.
5. Power: only relevant if yours is bad. Which it probably (statistically speaking) isn't.
6. Cabling: I firmly believe that this is a religious argument where neither side is grounded in either reality or actual science.
7. Tweaks (footers, racks, &c): Here Be Dragons. |
1. More like Quads
2.First rule of system building, match your amp the the speaker you love.
3.Should almost always help if you know what you are doing, but possible to screw it up if you don't.
4.True, very true IMHO.
5. Yeah, but tweaking is fun.
6. I think they are mostly the same, except they can intentionally designed to be a filter. It is a religious argument to some extent, but to me, well built (forget designed) tend to sound pretty similar to me. But the Cardas sure don't do any harm to the Merlins, others might.
7. Harmless if you keep it cheap, once you are settled on your speaker and amp you need something to do, you could also buy more music. |
Socrates7, in my system cabling and plugs are firmly grounded in reality. They would never be near the bottom of my list. |
s, until you hear the cardas clear you haven't heard anything. the golden ref is very good but much more ordinary imho.
and i think the woofer is actually a 7 incher and that may help you understand why it can do what it can do. :-)
the plinius is going to have very wide bandwidth and you obviously like that. tubes by comparison won't have it but they may sound fuller in the mid bass.
have fun.
best, b |
I have Gabriel Gold and Synergistic Research ICs in series. As far as I know there is no one doing else who has put these two XLR ICs in series. Without overstating things, the synergy is amazing -- detail, dynamics, sound stage, you name it. |
Bobby, I'd love to hear the Cardas Clear but I don't have the opportunity to audition equipment since I live overseas in a remote area. It would be very interesting to hear them alone first, then to try them in series alternately with the GG Reflection ICs and SR Acoustic Reference ICs I already have in my system. |
Re: Socrates7's point #4....this may be the exception that proves the rule, but I have a computer-based front end and for $129, I just removed several veils. Pure Music software takes the job of managing the audio signal away from iTunes while retaining its file management function. A cheap and very significant upgrade. |
Hi Paul,
Why not try out the new ZH230 - comparing the ZH270 it would always recommend the ZH230, it seems finer, but as quick, and bass is a real strong point in that speaker, when driven by that amp!! (Says I who as a violinist don't care too much about bass ;-)
and I used to have the Sugden Masterclass, but preferred the Accuphase integrated E550. Got rid of it, as it was to shiny..
egidius |
If it we available for 3-4K sold direct, I would definitely give it a try, or a used ZH270, but $8,500 for a 30 watt Class Amp in one chassis? Could not get over the value proposition there, must be priced to sell as many unit as he can make, a few a year. |
Well as you maybe recall, i pondered between the Atmas and the berning. glad i opted for Berning.. |
Pubul57,
Just wondering if you have created a short list of amps that you come to the conclusion are in the consideration.
I just recieved my mme's and have used simaudio w-5 for the earlier vsm's so I will see how they work together but I too am open to suggestions. I wish my atma's would have been fixed by now my tech guy is changing them to something else and I am letting him, why? I don't know but it may come back better, if not I'll buy another pair and eat the loss. |
Hi Pedrillo. I have concluded that while the idea of SS
appeals to me, I will not ever enjoy them as mych as good
tube amps, the latest having been the CAT JL2, Music
Reference RM9, and Atma-sphere M60s. I suspect your Simaudio
will be a very good match. The amp I think would work best,
based on convrsations with Bobby is the BEL1001 amps (he
also recommends the MAC amps with autoformers), but
unfortunately very hard to find now with the passing away of
Richard Brown. The Pass XA30.5 also sound very, very good,
but then I would switch to the Atma-sphere amps, and the
game was over. I think I'm stuck with tubes:) |
Edge NL10 which sells used for just over $3000. There is a richness and detail in the sound that the Berning ZH270 just doesn't have. |
i think if you want a sound better than atma merlin or jule merlin sound...you may have to change merlins...i think one day you surely will do so :) |
And that's helpful to the OP because.............? |
|
Just back from AXPONA in Atlanta. In the DCCA room they had Merlin TSMs set up with B&K Pre and an SS amp that I am sorry to say I do not recall. BUT, the sound was glorious and spooky good. Palpable, organic, deep and wide soundstage, clear, no digital hash, great mid range, smoooooth in the mids and on top without any syrup added. And I know smooth as my EgglestonWorks Fontains use the same tweeter (Esotar) and are driven with powerful SET amps. I do recall that the amp was nothing esoteric (no pun intended).
A gentleman walked in to the room and was surprised to hear how good the TSMs sounded, especially the deep bass, as he has the same speakers but never got them to sound that deep. The DCCA engineer said it was due to his cables (ICs, SC, and PCs), specifically the Power Cables. I'm not sure I can believe him, but I can say the sound was very relaxed and extremely believable, holographic. Perhaps instead of a new SS amp, give DCCA a call and speak with the engineer (Doug?) about his products? He was super nice and more than willing to discuss his cables, or even just music in general. I am NOT a high-price cable kind of guy, especially when it comes to PCs, but his (supposed) results were hard to dispute.
Anyway, just a thought. Good luck in your search. |
I think the TSMs use a Morel tweeter; the VSMs use the Dynaudio Esotars. |
I thought the TSMs use a tweeter from Renaissance Audio, handmade to BP's specs? ...which replaced the Morels. |
You are correct. I read it in BPs Product News section, but the spec sheet portion does not show that change, still listing Morel. Whatever driver he chose, I'm sure found a way to make it sound "magical". |
it is the renaissance 3.5 made to my spec.
bobby |
Hi Rockadanny, Glad you enjoyed the sound in our room. We were using a B&K Reference 200.2 amplifier controlled by a Resolution Audio Opus 21 CDP w/volume control. The Merlin's are a great speaker to work with and sound pretty amazing. I do remember the gentlemen coming into the room and talking about the bass performance. The system was at it's best during that time at the show....wished the sound was that good during the entire weekend....you came in at the right time. It does come down to set-up...I spent a good three months tweaking the sound. We will be using an 845 tube amp at RMAF...so if you make out there feel free to stop by and listen to some more music. Don DCCA |
i have merlin vsm mme ... at times the highs are agressive.....one of the reasons silver wires are not recomented with these speakers
|
masilu, the highs in the mme are transparent to what precedes them. the highs in this version have a very slight roll of so it is not the speaker. the recordings vary a lot, the silver wire you use or the room/set up may be causing this to happen.
if you want to discuss it, call me at 585 367 2390 and i will be glad to help you. i am sure we can get the sound to where you would be happy.
regards, b |
Don DCCA - Doh! Sorry for the wrong name. Thank you for correctly describing the gear you used. For everyone else, after re-reading my original thread above, I feel I need to clarify. When I stated, "... but his (supposed) results were hard to dispute", the reason I used "supposed" was only because I had no comparisons with different cables in that system. I did not mean to cast any doubt that the cables were the reason. As far as the results, what I heard, they were wonderful - sounded awesome with those cables. |
Rockadanny no worries! You must like lots of texture in the sound....that was my focal point for the AXPONA set-up. Don DCCA |
I'd like to hear the Tube Audio Design 125 Hibachi 2 amps with Merlin VSMs, if I had a pair. |
I'm second to TAD125 HibachiII - give them a try
Paul has the sale with steep discount. I bought 2 pairs :-)
I try with my VSM-MXe with great result. After all, you can't be beat with $500 a pair TAD125 :) |
In addition to Thuan, there is at least one other experienced A'goner I know that has reported very good results with the TAD125/MErlin pairing. And the cost cannot be beat as best I can tell. Plus, being SS, no tube maintenance concerns. What more could one want?
Oh yeah, actual tubes, I suppose. |
I think I've read that there is actually a single long life tube used in the TAD 125's input stage, which might help account for some of it's positive tube like sound traits. |
COrrection:
The tube in the TAD125 Hibachis is apparently used in the power supply for noise reduction purposes, not the input section. |
.
i found SOLID STATE audiolab 8000 pre / power ..better than ARS sonum fila se |
If you're still interested in trying out a great amp on the Merlins, try a Luxman L-505u. Outstanding. |
Interesting you should mention the L-505u, on my shortlist for an SS integrated, do you also have experience with the Mac integrated, 6300 or 6600? |
IME, the Luxman Class A/B amps are a lot more linear than the Class A amps, which tend to be rather smooth, which is exactly NOT the thing to do to a Merlin and adding Cardas cables into that mix is a hot mess.
I like the Mac integrateds quite a bit. Well, I'm totally fascinated by the chunky dials/buttons and the big blue meters, which I just love, but then, the Luxman has them too, so there you go. Totally my opinion here, of course, but I think that the Luxman has a much higher build quality and wrt the sound, I think Lux has a (significantly) more extended and linear presentation, both in bass and in the treble. Both Mac and Lux have a very fine mid range presentation, however. |
s, i think hot mess is a poor choice of words.
i think you want to indicate a specific character don't you?
and again this whole thing is relative to the size of the room and its boundary reinforcement modes as to which one you will prefer. wider bandwidth will tend to relax the mids by comparison which is good for larger rooms. a more chunky sound will be more present which will tend to sound more right in smaller rooms with more boundary reinforcement modes.
jmtc.
bobby p |
I thought the Luxman 590aII with Cardas GR on the VSM-MXR with Master BAM and Master RCs to be way too smooth. Tonally, that amp favors the mid-low end, not the mid-high end, like a Pass or First Watt, neither of which I was able to try with the Merlins. But anyway, switching all of the GR cables over to Clear didn't help. Some folks might really like the sound that I got, however -- I'm happy to concede that. For me, it was like swimming in honey (or a "hot mess", depending on how you like your analogies served up). I felt that I was getting too little detail, the treble was too rolled off and while the bass was very strong, it felt a bit bloated. I worried that perhaps it was the BAM working against the amp, but I whatever it was, I never got it to sound the way I wanted it to.
Ultimately, I found that the Class A/B Luxman amps to be a better match, perhaps as a function of how the Merlin's mid range was voiced, these amps just seemed to make the entire range seem to sit more of a piece. I was able to get extraordinarily strong, solid bass out of the Merlins this way ("shocking" was a word I tossed around at the time, though "best ever" would have done it too), and that was in a large, fully damped room with little or no wall reinforcement (I've since dumped a lot of my damping in favor of a more lively room sound).
Don't take this as a knock against the Class A Luxman amps, though, as I find them to be very fine indeed. And for leaner speakers or speakers that lean that way (if you'll pardon the phrase), that extra bit of warmth and smoothness and tonal density is quite magical.
But for speakers that are voiced warm in the mid range, adding an amp that's voiced warm in the mid range to a cable loom that's voiced warm in the mid range, well, to me that sounds problematic. Someone else might call that heaven, though, so who knows? YMMV. |
Just curious, Socrates, what cabling are you using with the Luxman? What size is your listening room? I've got an ARS-Filarmonio and Master VSM's. Wondering how you would compare the Luxman with the Fila, if you've heard the latter. I'm in love with the sound of my system, but have always wondered how the VSM's would sound with quality solid state. |
s, i will say that personal tastes are a big factor in all of this. when you say the mids are warm describe this please? embodied, forward as opposed to drawn back and leaner?
this is going to be music dependant. what is your preference?
btw, i do not voice any of my speakers. i make them as linear and resolved as i can.
it sounds to me that you like a slightly reticent mid band that will be lightened up to a degree?
bobby p |
Is it the the Master Bam sounds identical in A/C and battery modes? |
