I would really like to hear the new Audio Research DS450M. Maybe it is a possible next step type higher efficiency amp for thirstier speakers than say Icepower to-date.
Will have to stop by my local ARC dealer where I bought my ARC pre-amp to see/hear.
A beefy power supply done well can never hurt, right?
The description of the sound it produces on the ARC sight is not unlike what I hear with the Bel Cantos, which is quite good. Maybe these can push the edge further, albeit perhaps with some additional size, weight, bulk, power consumption and cost compared to Icepower for example. |
The thing with the good Class D amps is that the performance rivals others, they are small, they are efficient, and do not get very warm. Plus massive amounts of power to drive most any speaker.
Are the prices high? Definitely in some cases. THat's part of high end audio. One is actually paying largely for teh innovation and the benefits derived in the case of Class D beyond just paying extra for boutique type products. Nothing new there! Over time, I would expect price/performance to trend positively.
Also it is worth noting that Wyred and Bel Canto does add useful technology to the stock IcePower modules which at least helps justify the cost somewhat. Wyred adds an input stage that makes the amps tube pre-amp friendly and BC adds that plus a custom power board. These are things that only audio enthusiasts (like me) would care enough about to pay extra for.
WHen I bought my ref1000ms here on A'gon, I had the seller actually open them up and show me a picture of the innards to make sure that I was getting what I was paying extra for. |
Audiozen -- do you sell or market the AR amps? (Your post reads like ad copy...).
OTOH, I agree that the AR amps sound good. They area tad expensive though... |
The Audio Research DS450M is the first of its kind, a true high powered A/B Amp with a
class D switching module that will forge a new path for the future of amplification. The amp idle's at 55 watts and is as equally efficient as any Class D amp on the market. What irritates the hell out of me is the very high prices for some class D amps, but not all, considering the modest amount of electronics under the hood of some of the 12 and 15 pound amps. The B&O ice amp that is in the Wyred4Sound SX-1000 and the Bel Canto REF1000M's has a wholesale cost of $400.00. The biggest rip off coming around the corner is the new Mola-Mola M1's coming out next year from the Hypex/Ncore company. Bruno Putzeys, the owner and designer, came over from the Netherlands early last week and brought his Mola-Mola's to GTT Audio in New Jersey to finalized the design. Bill Parish, the owner, informed me on Friday that Bruno has set the retail price at $15,000 a pair. Phew!! What a burn. Two dinky 18 pound switching amps for $15K a pair!! Don't think that price will fly with Audiophiles. The Audio Research DS450M's are a steal at $10K a pair and weighing 75 pounds a pair due to their massive power supply and large custom built block transformers. |
I wonder if the naysayers of class D amps have given them sufficient break-in time. I have a Wyred integrated which I DID NOT like at first, then after connecting a tuner and putting over 300 hours on it, it really opened up. The cold, edgy sound was replaced by a involving, open soundstage. And yes, I believe it is on the warm side as well. I've owned tubes for years. |
My guess is that the significantly higher efficiency of CLass D amps means smaller power supplies with fewer/less caps are more viable since less power must be drawn to deliver a particular output power level. More caps might add cost with little added value to results I suspect compared with less efficient amps. |
"The core problem with many Class D amps on the market such as Bel Canto, Nuforce, Red Dragon, Hypex, CIA, Wyred4Sound
and other light weight, cool running switching designs is that they are wall dependent, needing to rely on dedicated 15 or 20 amp a.c. lines since they lack large power supplies from a large bank of capacitors found in A and A/B"
m or mkII versions of Bel Cantos have a custom power board as an enhancement over stock IcePower modules.
Not sure if Class Ds would benefit from similar power supply design as Class A/B. Large banks of caps there would certainly help defeat the small package aspect.
Maybe Kijanki or others with more expertise in Class D amp design could clarify?
I do know that my Bel Canto ref1000m's draw a lot of power when turned on initially for a few secs. If I turn both on within a few seconds of each, my house in-wall circuit breaker will blow. 2-3 secs in between and no problem. Also no problem at all once the music starts playing at any volume. Not the case with some Class A/B amps I have owned prior. |
The core problem with many Class D amps on the market such as Bel Canto, Nuforce, Red Dragon, Hypex, CIA, Wyred4Sound
and other light weight, cool running switching designs is that they are wall dependent, needing to rely on dedicated 15 or 20 amp a.c. lines since they lack large power supplies from a large bank of capacitors found in A and A/B
amps which sound better for that reason. This was the problem with the Carver Magnetic Field Amplifier back in the 80's, which was also wall dependent, which was nothing more than a glorified modified block transformer. Rowland and Levinson use switching devices but those amps run very hot. As far as a true Class D design, Spectron, Digital Amplifier Company and their Cherry amps and Audio Research, currently have the largest power supplies on the market for class D amps. But the Audio Reseach DS450M is by far the current KING of all class D amps worldwide. Why? It is the first class D amp that is a complete analog design, taking a true A/B amp with an integrated switching device. Their switching device is a in-house design they have a patent on. The DS450M has the largest power supply in the world out of any class D amp, much larger than Spectron or DAC'S Cherry amps. The main power supply of the DS450M has 260,000 microfarads of power from the main capacitor banks, and if you included the power supply from the secondary caps and the transformer, runs over 300,000 microfarads. If you want the best musical performance from a class D amp as the DS450M, don't waste your time on the 12 to 18 pound class D amps that will never provide the large current reserves since they lack large capacitor banks which is critically necessary to get the best performance from a full range speaker. The DS450M will drive 1 ohm loads without breaking a sweat and runs cool. |
Well why am I not surprised ? Everything you despized a short while ago are beginning to fall within your tastes. All it took is the proper guru. This goes for subwoofers and very shortly servers. |
Hi this is in response to Magfan, first like you i love Maggies & all full range panels, my dislike of class D amplification was due to the FACT that i had not heard any that i liked until a few weeks ago, a friend invited me to listend to an amp that he had built, it was an Hypex N core NC-400 & SMPS-600,this one realy sounded good and i have the intention of having a pair of mono blocks built, that's how much i liked it, i'm no fool when it sounds good it sounds good no matter what the Class - tubes or solid state. |
>>11-11-11: Orpheus10
Score one for the morons, none for the genius.<<
Correction:
Score one for the geniuses, none for the moron.
Hope that helps. |
I haven't heard the Spectron, but loved the ds450 stereo, on many speakers. Great control for those that need it, loads of current. Takes a long time to break in... Do not judge it new out of the box.
Been told by industry folks that using it with magnepans was the first time they got good bass out of those speakers-- for what that's worth.
For me, I'd go the old school route and use it with a tube preamp, ie arc ls27. Then it gives you everything you could want.
A great product, just use it correctly. |
Orpheus, I think part of the way out of your dillema is the audio club. Lots of people owning different stuff. you'll see what does or doesn't work in a short while.
I recently went to THE Show in Newport Beach ca. What an eye opener. While I am a SS guy, the tube stuff simply blew me away. If I had deep pockets, I'd be tempted. |
When high end emporiums were accessible, it was possible to audition the latest technology. Now we have to learn as much as possible from discussions. In this case, I consider ALL discussion valid, including those who have never heard a Class "D" amp.
I swallowed the SS hype "hook line and sinker". I spent many years bragging about how much better the specs on my SS was as compared to those noisy expensive "tubes". It was not until my SS went "belly up", and I decided to discover why those "morons" were spending so much money on tubes. Score one for the morons, none for the genius.
No way will I repeat with Class "D", and at the same time I'll have to buy one in order to hear it. That creates a dilemma for this audiophile, and that's why I want Class "D" discussed until the cows come home; plus someone with that amp had a tweeter to blow. Now I've known amps to blow woofers, but never a tweeter because the crossover caps protect it.
Continue the discussion, the cows are in no hurry to come home.
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Sure, Mr, like and dislike whatever you wish. For the time being, it's still sort of a free country.
However, I'd urge you to know something about or at least go to the trouble of finding out about whatever it is you claim not to like. Not liking 'd' just because it's 'd' makes as much sense as liking 'a' just because. Good and bad examples of either / both certainly exist.
Hypex, for example, just revisited 'd' and came out with some new modules and SMPS to match.
International Rectifier makes amps for the OEM market. I've got one out in the garage for test.
B&O is of course the largest and best known.
Spectron? Well regarded and used in some very hi-end systems
AR. I don't see how they could release something as bad as apparently you think it MUST be, simply based on technology.
Other 'd' entries? I'm sure their must be. Some will, like Spectron and AR, be original designs, others use OEM modules from the likes of IR or B&O. Personally, I'd take it one at a time and try to remain open. That you can move 100 watts of 'a' amp unassisted only means you've been putting in plenty of time at the gym.
Freedom of speech implies having some idea WTF you're talkin' about. This freedom is both abridged by statute....(no screaming FIRE in a theater unless it IS on fire, for example) and good sense....like not advocating a return to women not voting or whatever.
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Sorry if i offended class D or I.C.E. fans it was not my intention BUT do i have the right to like or dislike a product like anyone else come on it's the good old U.S.A. where in a free country what about FREEDOM OF SPEACH,did you guys forget about that. |
They probably said the same thing about solid state amps back in the days they were being introduced.
Neal |
Mracoustat's thinking is from the stoneage while living in the "I.C.E.-age".
Try listening to a Hypex amp. Nuff said. |
" class D or I.C.E. for me same garbage, i simply don't believe in 500 watts power amps that weigh under 100 pounds just does'nt make sense to ME"
It is not question of faith to begin with.
Next, why won;t you avoid making comments in matters you have no understanding but beliefs instead.
Incidently, one of Spectron designers, guy who does voicing, also like full ribbon speakers and even own one
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Sorry Magfan, class D or I.C.E. for me same garbage, i simply don't believe in 500 watts power amps that weigh under 100 pounds just does'nt make sense to ME.
PS: I'm also a Magnepan fan. |
Spectron is not ICE and looking at the pictures, neither is the Audio Research.
If the OP is driving some very low sensitivity speakers to higher levels, this may be one option.
However, plenty of very hi-power conventional amps are also available. I have no idea how much $$$ we're talkin' about. |
Sorry but class D amplification and WARMTH do not belong in the same sentence,it's WARM or it's COLD (ICE ) can't have both in the same unit BUT if it was ME i would choose Audio Research will be much easier to resale.
PS: No i don't like ICE POWER. but that's only MY opinion |
I've had the Spectrons and would love the hear the DS450. From reports of others who have the Audio Reseach DS450, I bet the DS450 is a little warmer. Probably closer to my preference. |
