The core problem with many Class D amps on the market such as Bel Canto, Nuforce, Red Dragon, Hypex, CIA, Wyred4Sound
and other light weight, cool running switching designs is that they are wall dependent, needing to rely on dedicated 15 or 20 amp a.c. lines since they lack large power supplies from a large bank of capacitors found in A and A/B
amps which sound better for that reason. This was the problem with the Carver Magnetic Field Amplifier back in the 80's, which was also wall dependent, which was nothing more than a glorified modified block transformer. Rowland and Levinson use switching devices but those amps run very hot. As far as a true Class D design, Spectron, Digital Amplifier Company and their Cherry amps and Audio Research, currently have the largest power supplies on the market for class D amps. But the Audio Reseach DS450M is by far the current KING of all class D amps worldwide. Why? It is the first class D amp that is a complete analog design, taking a true A/B amp with an integrated switching device. Their switching device is a in-house design they have a patent on. The DS450M has the largest power supply in the world out of any class D amp, much larger than Spectron or DAC'S Cherry amps. The main power supply of the DS450M has 260,000 microfarads of power from the main capacitor banks, and if you included the power supply from the secondary caps and the transformer, runs over 300,000 microfarads. If you want the best musical performance from a class D amp as the DS450M, don't waste your time on the 12 to 18 pound class D amps that will never provide the large current reserves since they lack large capacitor banks which is critically necessary to get the best performance from a full range speaker. The DS450M will drive 1 ohm loads without breaking a sweat and runs cool. |
The Audio Research DS450M is the first of its kind, a true high powered A/B Amp with a
class D switching module that will forge a new path for the future of amplification. The amp idle's at 55 watts and is as equally efficient as any Class D amp on the market. What irritates the hell out of me is the very high prices for some class D amps, but not all, considering the modest amount of electronics under the hood of some of the 12 and 15 pound amps. The B&O ice amp that is in the Wyred4Sound SX-1000 and the Bel Canto REF1000M's has a wholesale cost of $400.00. The biggest rip off coming around the corner is the new Mola-Mola M1's coming out next year from the Hypex/Ncore company. Bruno Putzeys, the owner and designer, came over from the Netherlands early last week and brought his Mola-Mola's to GTT Audio in New Jersey to finalized the design. Bill Parish, the owner, informed me on Friday that Bruno has set the retail price at $15,000 a pair. Phew!! What a burn. Two dinky 18 pound switching amps for $15K a pair!! Don't think that price will fly with Audiophiles. The Audio Research DS450M's are a steal at $10K a pair and weighing 75 pounds a pair due to their massive power supply and large custom built block transformers. |
Gregm..LOL..No..I do not market or sell any Audio products
at all. I'm not in the retail business. My "ad copy" style
of writing is a habit I'll never shake resulting from being in the publishing business for fifteen years. I'm just an older dude that has an intense passion for music as everyone else on Gon. Having been a hard core Audiophile
since 1975, I get excited when I see a high end company moving forward with an innovative approach to conventional
amp designs and I'm very impressed that Audio Research is the first to come out with a class D amp with the largest power supply on the market. It has been over due for quite some time and I have been hoping for many years that someone would eventually produce this kind of Class D amp. |
FYI..I spoke to Eric at Audio Perfection store in Minneapolis, fifteen minutes from Audio Research in Plymouth. Audio Perfection is a Bell Canto and Audio Research Dealer. Eric's take on the Bel Canto REF1000M
and the Audio Research DS450M is this.." Both amps have outstanding sound but the DS450M has much more body and weight with individual instruments"... |
Thr ongoing Sea of evolving Class D technology is hard to keep up with since new products keep popping up several times a year. Regarding the ARC DS450M, I discovered in threads during the past week a problem with the amp that could be a deal breaker. Buzzing transformers. I spoke to Stereo Design in San Diego last week informing me they have experienced this as well with the larger ARC tube amps in recent months. The DS450M uses a block transformer which are much harder to shield than a toroidal transformer. I decided to go back and check out a Class D company I forgot about, D-Sonic in Houston and discovered on their site a new Class D technology their using. I can't believe that the owner, Dennis Deacon, called me on Sunday afternoon. Dennis explained that he has done away with using the B&O Ice Amps, and is using the most adavanced Class D amps on the market, the new SOA Class D core Amps. These amps are far superior to B&O, Hypex, or Spectron. No more dry sound, much better deeper bass, a more fluid, fuller and richer mid-range, and very smooth high frequencies. Read the recent review in 6Moons on the D-Sonic M2-1500M amp using this new technology. Very good photos of the interior. The SOA amp completely eliminates all RFI/EMI problems, so your Magnum Dynalab FM tuner is good to go. Dennis states these new amps are currently the very best that Class D has too offer. |
Neglected to mention that the term SOA in the D-Sonic amps means Safe-Operating-Area, a technical term that Bob Carver used back in the 90's with his Sunfire amps. The other term for SOA is Semiconductor-Optical-Amplifier which is not the type in the D-Sonic amps. |
HiFial..I mentioned in another thread recently of the new Hypex Mola-Mola M1 mono amps coming out next spring. Weigh around fifteen pounds each. Bruno Putzeys, the owner/designer of Hypex, came over to New Jersey from the Netherlands just over two weeks ago to do the final Beta testing on the amps
at Bill Parish's GTT Audio store. Took two days for the final adjustments. Bill informed me the retail price is set at $15K a pair. Phew!! One thing that really impressed me in the review I read several days ago in 6Moons on the D-Sonic M2-1500M amps is that the review concluded stating "Some may find the D-Sonic amps too organic for their tastes"...Too organic?..thats exactly what has been missing with class D amps..is a very natural organic character..its about time.. |
Hifial..Go on the D-Sonic home page and click on the 6Moons
picture on the left which will take you to the review of the M2-1500M amps. Very impressive. One would conclude from the review the term organic should be taken as a positive. |
One additional item I neglected to add..when I spoke to Dennis Deacon with D-Sonic a few days ago, he mentioned their are currently seven Class-D platforms being used globally which includes the B&O ICE, Nuforce, Hypex, Spectron, and other's, and hes listened and evaluated all of them, and states his amps are the newest and most advanced Class-D technology and by far the most musical and natural sounding Class-D amps he has ever heard. No way in hell will he divulge the Designer and manufacturer. Thats about as likely as getting the secret to the Coca-Cola formula. He is the first in the country to use this new technology. |
Vicdamone..I currently own ten pairs of the Bel Canto R1000M's, three pair's of the Nuforce reference 18's, (one pair in the shower), and two DAC Cherry amps. I own ten pair's of speakers including the Wilson Grand Slams which I keep in my small den. |
Hifial..Dennis with D-Sonic never specifically referred to the NC1200, but to Hypex in general. There has been several
companies for years in the States using Hypex amps which includes Channel Islands and the Genesis Reference amps out of Seattle. Genesis does more extensive mods with Hypex than anyone else which includes a large separate power supply with a beefy toroidal transformer and capacitor bank. Their custom additions and circuit mods is the best I've seen to date with a Hypex platform. I spoke to Merrill in November regarding his Veritas amps and he mentioned he does not provide interior photos of his amps fearing that design engineers will copy his platform. How silly. What he's really saying is that there is not enough meat and potatoes under the hood to justify the high retail
price of $10K a pair. Heck, for that money, the amp should come with either balanced or single ended inputs, which it does not. Balanced ony. You can order the Genesis amps with either balanced or single ended inputs. I have seen close up pics of the Hypex NC1200 amp and the Ncore power supply. You can hold either in one hand. Very small. There's not enough there electronically in terms of parts or power supply to justify the outrageous high retail prices. I think that the Mola-Mola M1 amps coming out this year will be a hard sell at $15K a pair, and they also come with balanced inputs only. My sense is that the D-Sonic M2-600M mono amps at $1950.00 a pair, utilizing the new Class D SOA core technology is the best bang for the buck and put out a whopping 1200 watts into 4 ohms and come with both balanced and single ended inputs. |
Hifial..I am not putting down any company. Other companies using Hypex amps selling in the same price range, do much more upgrades than Merrill. Merrill adds his own flavor? The only upgrades done to the Veritas using Hypex, is wiring. 10 awg Cardas litz wire to the power board. 11 awg Cardas litz bi-wire for power transfer from the board and 19 awg Cardas wire to the input connectors and 14 awg internal ground wire and solder mounting instead of screws. Thats it.
There are no additional p.c. boards or added power supplies or larger transformers that
you will find in amps from Genesis and Channel Islands using Hypex amps.
I called back Bill Parish at GTT Audio four days after Bruno left from Beta testing The Mola-Mola M1's at GTT.
Bill informed me the sound is magnificent and the most musical Class D amp he has heard to date. Bruno is also coming out this year with his new Mola-Mola Preamp that is his own design. It appears at the current stage of where Class D technology is at, that the Hypex 1200 and the SOA Core amp used by D-Sonic, are the two most advanced amps currently on the market. |
Forgot to mention..that Hypex will also be coming out this year with an integrated amplifier using the Hypex 1200 amp. |
Hifial..you got lost and need to put your glasses back on. Nowhere at any time did I state anywhere in this entire thread that Bill Parish said that the D-sonic blew all the other Class-D amps away. I stated Dennis Deacon's comments
comparing his SOA Class-D Core amps to others. The technical upgrades I mentioned are a combination of whats described on the Merrill site and the many emails of technical details I received from Merrill back in November.
Merrill also offered me to Rep his product and he would pay
me $ 100.00 per listening session to any potential buyer. You must've accepted that offer since your replies sound like hard sell. Besides, I'm getting sick and tired of Audiophiles in the States constantly defending European designers as superior to American designers. What a load of crap. America and Japan still make the best designed and best sounding Audio gear on the planet and our Audio design engineers in the States are second to none.
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One important technical item..Dennis Deacon with D-Sonic, in our conversation this past Sunday, explained the technical reason why he dumped the B&O ICE amps, is that their is a flaw with B&O ICE and other Class-D amps in the upper mid-range and high frequencies, that they have feed back problems in those upper bands which can compromise smoothness and greater weight in those areas, which is why
some Class-D amps can sound dry, cool, and slightly hard in the upper frequencies. Dennis claims that the new SOA Class-D core amps he's using with his own mod's added, have zero feedback through the entire frequency spectrum
which is why he states, as well as 6Moons, that his amps come closer to tube amps then other Class-D amps on the market resulting in a more refined and smoother high frequency and mid-range frequency performance. I assume that Hypex has addressed this problem with
Bruno's new SMPS 1200 amp, which has positive results. If the new SOA core amp from D-Sonic sounds as good and performs as well as Dennis and 6Moons claims, then its a no brainer to go for
the SOA core amp over Hypex since the cost is 80% less. |
Dave b_your right about that. My first amp back in the 70's
was the Sansui AU7900 integrated at 75 watts per channel. One of the finest sounding amps I ever owned. Had it hooked
up to a large pair of Advents and a Dual 701 turntable with
a Shure V15 cartridge. Warm, rich, lush sound with a full mid-range. Ran very hot. You could fry an egg on the back.
The rise of the digital age changed the sonic character forever of high end separates. I would say the late 70's was the golden years of high fidelity. With half speed
cut master vinyl records from Mobile Fidelity and Telarc, and advanced improvements in cartridges and turntables and cables. It was the peak of true analog. |
Mapman..here's some useless trivia..The first retail CD player came out in early fall of 1982, the Sony CDP-101, followed by the Philips Magnavox players that came out that
November.. CD's started showing up in the stores in fall selling for $ 25.00 a pop. Phew!! However, the very first disc players ever made was in 1980. Pioneer that year bought out a company that invented and made the first laser
disc movie player. Pioneer slapped their badge on the player and were sold under their name. Denon also in 1980, made the worlds first CD player. It was a test player that was for studio use only. |
Jult52..Dennis brought up the zero feedback issue in my conversation with him last Sunday and pointed out this the
is the problem with other Class-D amps. Other companies have zero feedback amps including Hegel, Sanders Magtech and Soulution just to name a few. |
Mapman..Dennis at D-Sonic pointed out that he only uses B&O
ICE amps for the surround channels only in his multi channel home theater amps. He has done major mods on the SOA core amp. On The D-Sonic website select the products tab and click on the 6Moons picture which takes you to the review. Go in several pages and there is some good interior photos of the SOA amp. You will notice a red p.c.
board on a raised platform which is a modified input stage
that Dennis designed. He also added EMI/RFI shields and filters and added a higher quality A.C. filter which improves grounding, and uses all silver teflon wire. |
Dave_b.. Sansui is under different ownership and is mainly a flat panel television company. You can still buy restored Garrard's out of the UK but the very best restored Garrard's that are completely gutted out and restored to brand new condition are from Artisan Fidelity in Hammond, Illinois. Artisan does the very best restoration on classic turntables. Chris, who owns the company is at the top of his game. No one in Europe, the U.S. or in Asia can come close to Chris's Rolls Royce quality restoration. Look at his restored tables on Gon. Masterpieces. |
Mikicasellas..I have had several conversations with Sean, and have seen pic's of the interior of his stereo amp. Very little mods. Has two small Lundahl transformers and DH Labs silver plated copper wire with teflon jackets to the inputs and outputs. Thats about it. The problem with NewClear is that the input impedance has not been adjusted
to a higher number. Its at 30kohms, so it would be best to use a Preamp with a low output impedance.
Between the three I would go with Wyred4Sound. Why? the owner of the company
EJ Sarmento, has a degree in electronics. He is a circuit engineer. There are more extensive mods in the Wyred4Sound than in the NewClear. The input buffer circuit board is designed by Bascom King and raises the input impedance to 60Kohms which is easier to drive. Other mods are done by EJ
including different caps and resistors. Sean Brady and Dennis Deacon are business men, not circuit engineers. Wyred4Sound and Bel Canto are companie's that do the best job with the Bel Canto amps since both companies are owned by circuit engineers. D-Sonic uses Pascal and Abeltec
amps with very little mods. The new Jeff Rowland integrated uses
Pascal amps with major mods with added large power supplies. For the money, Wyred4Sound is the wisest choice. |
Miguel. If you want warmth and richness, here's what I would recommend. Don't buy Class D. If its for convenience
I can understand. Buy the Parasound A21 amp from Audio Advisor for $ 2300.00 and the Wyred4Sound STP-SE. You will
have a match made in heaven. The Parasound is now available in black. Its heavy and very powerful and will give much greater musicality than Class D. It is the best amp on the market in its price range. Its a John Curl design. He has always been a better amp designer than a Preamp designer. |
The Kismet is a damn good amp based on the review's I've read. Handsome looking too with those four chrome corner pillar's and that velvet looking black face plate. 160 watts per side. Heavy at 60 pounds a piece. The Parasound peaks at 300 amperes from both channels which is a helluva lot of current. What speaker's are you using or plan to use? |
Pound for pound...I would go for the Parasound given John Curl's reputation for the past 40 years. The review of the A21 in England seems to be more positive and accurate.
HiFiPig and Hi-News reviews love the amp describing it as very
natural, organic, and very smooth with outstanding bass and soundstage and imaging. Its a steal for $2300.00 |
Ah!..Sandy Goss speaker's. Their known for their extremely
neutral open transparent sound. Very power hungry even though they have high sensitivity at 91 db's. It would be best to use warm sounding electronics with the Tritons. I would never use Class D amps on the Triton's knowing Sandy's history with DefTech. The Parasound would ad a very good balanced sound with its warm full character that would result in a more forgiving relaxed sound from the Triton's. |
Miguel..I highly recommend you check out two videos on Youtube. Type in the search bar "Parasound A21 Amp". The listed menu will show two videos. Both are narrated by the owner of Parasound Richard Schram. Their both sponsored by Audio Advisor. One video is Parasound A21 Overview, the other is Inside the Parasound A21. It provides helpful tech
knowledge of how good the amp is. |
Miguel..there is an option that I would highly recommend you take advantage of or it will probably be gone in several days. Up for sale on Audiogon is perhaps one of the top three performing integrated amplifier's on the planet. The CODA CSIb. Very powerful. 330 watts
@8ohms and 660 watts @4ohms. Mint condition with only 100 hours of play time. $4500.00 out of Colorado.
Having owned and listened to Coda gear in the past, this beast is about
as musical as you will ever want regardless what you run through it. Built like a Rolls Royce. Warm, rich, lush, with outstanding bass and dynamic's. It will give a lot of separates a run for their money. You will notice a solid top cover since it does not get very hot for a Class A/B amp. Rare to see this on Gon. Will bring out the very best from your Triton's. Hand built in Sacramento. |
Miguel..I have owned BAT gear back in 2001 and had problems with the equipment. Sold my BAT gear three months later. The company was having hard times recently and was just purchased by Music Direct. Regarding CODA. One of my top favorite solid state companies of all time. Much better than Parasound and would take it over BAT any day of the week. The CSIb integrated currently for sale on Gon is a steal for the performance it delivers. Tremendous power and very efficient. Smooth, warm, organic with tremendous dynamics and transparency. Since the Triton's are a little on the cool side, the Coda would be the perfect balance to deliver the warmth the Triton's need. |
