Speakers for a large room for around $1000

Hey I have a pair of OMD-15s and my friends' jaws drop with envy when they hear them.

I see you are getting suggestions for soundlab's;I own soundlab M2's and I would remind you that if you are considering a soundlab speaker make sure that your amp(s) can drive them properly;if they can you may never want another speaker again.

Which way are you leaning now?

05-05-10: Sgtr
I am also in the market for that price range. How about the following:

a. Vandersteen
b. Paradigm
c. Quad
d. PSB

Any ranking of these please?

Depends on room size and shape, listening habits, positioning flexibility, and amp type and power driving the speakers.

Also your musical and tonal preferences. For example, Paradigm and PSB are both Canadian companies that do a lot of research as Canada's National Research Foundation. Yet Paradigm tends to have more boom 'n' sizzle while PSB is known for a transparent, honest midrange and incredible frequency linearity. They're both similar in sensitivity, impedance load, and dispersion pattern. Personally my taste strongly prefers PSB, but YMMV depending on taste and music selection.

TAS has chosen SIX different PSB speakers at different price categories for at least the last two years running.

Still, each of the speakers you listed has special "gifts." Vandersteens have a realistic tonal balance, focused midrange, low cabinet resonances and diffraction distortion. They're phase coherent which makes for the most scintillating imaging and facilitate hearing deep into the music and the soundstage. Quads are famous for sounding lifelike at low to medium volumes. Paradigm probably leads the four for bass slam and overall speed. I consider the PSB to be a well balanced all-rounder with a better-than-expected midrange, both timbrally accurate and transparent.

I am also in the market for that price range. How about the following:

a. Vandersteen
b. Paradigm
c. Quad
d. PSB

Any ranking of these please?

Ok Thanks for the clarification
The new ML design would seem to offer some promise
A listening session might be in order

05-04-10: Hi_hifi
Now you are headed in the direction of seriously good sound, although maybe not with a high WAF. Martin Logans are poplular electrostatics, but to do their magic they will want to be reasonably far out from the back wall (check the Cardas formula) and they won't resemble much else in the way of typically high WAF furnishings. I'm not sure how much ML speaker you can really get for $1k, but if you can relax the budget and the WAF specs, there is no doubt that in a decent room electrostatics and tubes can reproduce music beautifully.

Not these M-Ls. They aren't electrostats; they aren't dipolar at all. They use a proprietary M-L "ATF" (Advanced Thin Film) forward-firing driver for the treble, augmented by 3 woofers in (I think) a 2-1/2 way configuration. They occupy a fairly modest 9"w x 17"d footprint, are slightly under 40" tall, and don't have to be far out into the room to "breathe." Also available in dark cherry finish. Read about 'em here.

Developing this ATF driver combined with dynamic mid/woofer drivers enables M-L to compete more effectively in the HT and WAF market segments.

Now you are headed in the direction of seriously good sound, although maybe not with a high WAF. Martin Logans are poplular electrostatics, but to do their magic they will want to be reasonably far out from the back wall (check the Cardas formula) and they won't resemble much else in the way of typically high WAF furnishings. I'm not sure how much ML speaker you can really get for $1k, but if you can relax the budget and the WAF specs, there is no doubt that in a decent room electrostatics and tubes can reproduce music beautifully. If you can consider MLs you might also audition some Soundlabs and Quads, and probably some Maggies (not electrostatics, but planars). Maybe your wife will think planars are cute :) and then you are in.

05-04-10: Metman
Martin Logan at Best Buy? Are you sure? This must have something to do with the new owner

Best Buy has been selling several Martin Logan models for a couple of years now but only at locations that have the Magnolia room

Correct! Magnolia Audio-Video (formerly Magnolia Hi-Fi) is a reputable dealer of high quality home entertainment electronics, originating in Seattle many years ago. Being a Seattle resident for several years I've been accustomed to visiting their high end rooms and seeing/listening to Krell, McIntosh, Sonus Faber, Vienna, Martin-Logan, Def-Tech, etc. for some time.

A few years ago they struck up a deal with Best Buy to set up high quality audio/video rooms in some of the Best Buys, meaning you can get Martin-Logans at some Best Buy stores.

I just got my AudioAdvisor Closeouts catalog and was going to recommend those M-L Prefaces on this thread but you beat me to it.

I will add, however, that these M-Ls have a sensitivity rating of 92 dB (good for a large listening area), and M-Ls have traditionally worked well with tubes.

Martin Logan at Best Buy? Are you sure? This must have something to do with the new owner

Best Buy has been selling several Martin Logan models for a couple of years now but only at locations that have the Magnolia room

Martin Logan at Best Buy? Are you sure? This must have something to do with the new owner.

My apologies, The speakers I was refering to are the Martin Logan Prefaces available for $1000.00 at both Best Buy and Audioadvisor

04-30-10: Metman
These are available from both Audioadviser and Best Buy (the Magnolia room) for $1000.00 I don't own them but heard them playing at Best Buy on a HT receiver and they sounded great. Not sure you could do a whole lot better new for the money

You mean the NHT Four's, right? They're $999 each, not per pair. Currently Audio Advisor has them on sale at $750 each, or $1500/pair.

These are available from both Audioadviser and Best Buy (the Magnolia room) for $1000.00 I don't own them but heard them playing at Best Buy on a HT receiver and they sounded great. Not sure you could do a whole lot better new for the money

My room is very similar to yours and my NHT classic fours do a good job filling it with sound. You should be able to get them for around $1000 shipped used. I don't think they would be great for tubes though- they like power.

Mark

spendor S6,that is a superb recommendation.

04-29-10: Hi_hifi
One thing you will find is that all the good speakers and electronics in the world will only constitute some portion of the resulting sound. The room size, shape, and furnishings will drive a bunch of the results and the location of the speakers in the room will also drive a bunch of the results. Clearly, the speakers and the speaker interaction with the room are key considerations, none of which almost ever synchronizes well with the WAF.

That's one of the reasons I strongly recommend the Mirage OM-15s. They are designed to interact well with the room, and I've found them to be pretty forgiving with placement. You can even position the speakers pretty far apart and not lose the center image. The OMD-15 is fairly petite and is available in gloss black or rosewood, depending on your wife's preferences.

I don't know where this perception that the Mirage is an inferior speaker came from. The OMD-15s were designed to compete at the $2500 price point, which they do very well. Sometimes I'm simply stunned by the detail and ambience they can retrieve, while never sounding hyped up or artificially detailed.

Presently, however, new owner Klipsch has discontinued Mirage's two top-line floorstanders, so they are available from Vanns.com for 60% off list, but with 7-day return privileges and full factory warranty. Their tonal balance is neutral, the dispersion pattern emulates the average thrown off by live music, and therefore they yield excellent results when speakers have to be placed in a living room rather than a dedicated listening room. The soundstage stays put no matter when you sit or stand in the room.

The Vandersteen is a great speaker, and in fact the 2Ce and OMD-15 have a very similar tonal balance, one I find to be very natural. The Vandy has an advantage in image specificity because it is a phase coherent design. But the Mirage has the advantage in soundstage, and its imaging isn't bad. For tubes, the Vandy has a benign impedance curve, but you still should use a tube amp with 4-ohm taps. On the other hand, they're not efficient. Stereophile's test report measured its sensitivity at a very low 84 dB (at 1w input). Even with two speakers and the in-room boost, the sensitivity rating would be around 87 db tops, where the Mirage puts out 93 dB under the same circumstances. That means the Mirage can achieve the same SPL as the Vandy on one-fourth the power. Think about that--15 wpc instead of 60, or 40 wpc instead of 160. Like the Vandersteen, you should use the 4-ohm taps (on a tube amp so equipped), but the Mirage doesn't require much of a damping factor. The bass drivers are a mere 5-1/2 inches in diameter, so motion control is not a big deal. My amp has a low damping factor of 25, yet bass is extended and tight. They achieve their deep bass owing to a Mirage design and patented surround which enables greater cone excursion while maintaining linearity.

"Clearly, the speakers and the speaker interaction with the room are key considerations, none of which almost ever synchronizes well with the WAF. "

No truer words have been written here.

I suggest you give the Polk LSi 15 a try. A truly fantastic speaker for less than 1K (used) and will compete with many up to 3K. It's a no-brainer, read up on it.

Good luck.

Blnd2spll,

I am not crazy about unique Mirage or Ohm sound. Some people love it, but it is not my cup of tea - personal preference. So I think you can't go wrong with either Vienna or Paradigm. I wonder if your local Paradigm dealer has the SE model available for a look and listen - they have real wood veneer versus the Montor 7's vinyl, and have better parts and sound top to bottom. If the Monitor 7 is a great budget speaker, the Paradigm SE is a REALLY great budget speaker. Either will probably make you and your wife happy.

That said I have to agree with where Dmastri is trying to take you here with the Vienna recommendation. The Mozarts are a cut above the Monitor 7's and probably the SE's too. Craftmanship and sonic qualities are more sophisticated and as Dmastri says, will reward better upstream gear as it is upgraded. The Vienna sound quality is understated but very natural to my ear. I agree with you on finish, and prefer a nice warm wood grain over black. I know my wife would send tall, dark and shiny speakers straight to the dump.

Another idea:

If you can stretch to $1249, there is a pair of Spendor S6 for sale on Agon right now. Like the Vienna's or ProAc's mentioned above, these are very, very nice speakers.

There is also a pair of Monitor Audio RS-8's for $800 that look to be in nice shape. Nice sound, high WAF.

Good luck.

I didn't read every post here but it isn't clear what amp you intend to use - although I thought I saw something that indicated you might like tube gear (which is generally preferred, imo). With respect to tubes, there are lots of amp (and preamp) choices, but some speakers will need more power than others. If you happen to select some high efficiency speakers (100db efficiency or so), you could then look into low powered SET amps (I like 45s, but 2A3s and 300Bs are other possiblities). This would allow you to get great tube sound for perhaps less than medium to high powered tube amps. I think your biggest challenge is the WAF. If you could live with Vandy 2Cs (used in good condition), or Dahlquist DQ-10s (used in good condition) you would be looking at speakers well under $1k for the pair and you could get yourself a nice $1k or so ARC or other tube amp. Or if you could live with the Cornwalls (under $1k used vintage), you could get a 45 SET amp. Almost no speaker is going to sound very good pushed up against a wall or in a corner (although that's what Cornwalls were supposedly named for). Based on what you have written, I think you would like Vandy 2Cs if you could get permission to put them several feet out from the back wall. You could get yourself a vintage ARC D76A or D70MkII, or you could get yourself a Marantz 2230/45/70 receiver and I think you would be surprised at how good it would sound. Or you could put the same electronics on a pair of DQ-10s. I think you are down the tube path (given your guitar amp experience) and you really ought to get some speakers that will synergistically show off what a good tube amp can do.

One thing you will find is that all the good speakers and electronics in the world will only constitute some portion of the resulting sound. The room size, shape, and furnishings will drive a bunch of the results and the location of the speakers in the room will also drive a bunch of the results. Clearly, the speakers and the speaker interaction with the room are key considerations, none of which almost ever synchronizes well with the WAF.

Rrog, er, O.K., if you say so, and you say so.:-)

me again,there is a store in my state called sterio discount center,this store sells paradigm,listened to them many times,but not the 7s.just keep in mind that with the viennas if in time to come,may it be 6months, 1year, 5 years, etc.you decide to upgrade you electronics.that speaker is only going to sound better and better with upgrades.where as the 7s are limited.i personally listen to jazz, and alot of female vocals,midrange is very important to me that is why i am a harbeth owner.but you have to go with what you like,and keep the wife happy as well, anyway good luck with what ever choice you make.

Unsound, You're a funny guy. Did it appear that way? Sorry about that. I was posting a response to your last post.

I am trying to say I am not picking on Vandersteen in any way since I also agree some Vandersteen models are a terrific bargain and I have enjoyed Vandersteen speakers in the past. However, I would still be leary of buying a used pair of Vandersteens speakers without know the speaker's history. The only other speakers I would be this concerned about would be Martin Logan CLS and Quad Electrostatics.

Dmastri - in terms of music, I listen to a lot of alt-country, folk rock, straight folk/acoustic music; a fair amount of classical and minimalist neo-classical, and then some rock and alternative music thrown in.

I don't have any tube gear or any in mind. This is just something I would like to have the option to try at some point (mostly because of my love of guitar tube amplifier). But, I am willing to sacrifice this requirement if it just seems too difficult to satisfy.

I have been considering the Viennas, and I keep eying that pair for 1000. I guess my biggest hesitation with them is the finish, I'm really not a piano black fan. Though again, maybe that's the sacrifice I'll have to make for good speakers...

At this point the Paradigm Monitor 7s have moved up into the front again, mostly because of the WAF appeal, I've actually had a chance to listen to them, and there are some suggestions that they might work well with tubes. My biggest concern with them is that they will have trouble with the size of my living room, though from what other people have said, I shouldn't really be worried about my room size that much.

Blnd2spll,There is one more speaker that you should really consider,it is cosmeticly beautiful,very well built and sound is excellent.mates very well with tubes very very room friendly,it is the vianna acoustic mozart. if you look on audiogon their is a pair of mozart for 1000.00 used retail is 2800.00 then another pair of mozart grands for 1300.00 used 3000.00 retail.I can asure you out of the vandersteen,mirage,and other speakers mentioned these viannas for the money will well outperform the speakers you are considering.and the wife will love the looks of them.because of the wife factor and what you are looking for, money wise,being you want a floorstander can not think of a better speaker.and you can give them a listen at your local best buy store.last i knew they carry vianna. please do not think i am trying to promote any for sale listings,it is just that i love this hobby and been into it for 22years,have owned over 20 pairs of speakers and travel to many audio shows.and have helped many friends put budget systems together.just something i love to do. good luck dave

BLnd2spll,just a quick question,if you do not mind before you pull the trigger,what kind of music do you listen to mostly? and what is your tube gear?

Rrog, are you posting a response to your alter ego?

"most people would not consider this type of use as abuse."

I agree with you and I happen to like Vandersteen speakers. I have fond memories of great sounds with Vandersteens, but they do have their limitations.

IMHO, using speakers not specifically designed for such use, with increased volume outside for a party or BBQ, would qualify as abuse. That's a job for something like PA system.

Unsound, This is not like over driving an electrostatic speaker and most people would not consider this type of use as abuse.

As always, don't take my word for it. Call Vandersteen Audio and ask if this problem has been resolved.

Rrog, there are many sealed box speakers. I not aware of this alleged problem being endemic to these designs. One particular brand of speakers that are reputed to being most sensitive to being over driven, are box-less ESL's. Perhaps, it would be fairer to say that any used speaker might be compromised by being abused/over-driven by the previous user?

Here's a longtime favorite of mine in your price range:

http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=6&detail=ok&PN=TFE200-B&Site=1

The DCM TFE-200s are a really high value speaker, IMO. They are large speakers, but with a narrow baffle that might pass the WAF test. They are avilable in a wood or black veneer.

I heard them in a large conference room at one of the NYC HE shows, driven by a 25 watt/channel Joilda integrated. There was no sense that they could have used more wattage. Everyone in the room was impressed by their open, dynamic sound and full, tight bass. I believe they come with a 30-day return option, too.

If I had the space and a limit of $1K to spend on loudspeakers, I would probably end up with these.

Unsound, Richard Vandersteen told me about this problem during a telephone conversation. On some of the later models he incorporated a warning system with LEDs that would flash behind the grill.

A common cause is when the volume is increased enough to hear music outside like during a party or a backyard BBQ.
Since the speaker is a sealed enclosure there is nowhere for the heat to go, no ventilation.

So I'm really thinking about pulling the trigger on a pair of the Mirage OMD 15s. As far as I can see it, here are the pros and cons of the main ones I'm considering (sorry this gets a bit long winded):

Mirage OMD 15s:

Pros:
-Designed to be musical speakers that interact well with the room and are have very good off-axis response.
-The price is right (and on top of that, for $2k speakers originally, it's a great deal)
-New, so they have a warranty
-30-day in home evaluation/return policy

Cons:
-might not be that great at low volume levels
-might not match up great with tubes
-I don't have an opportunity to hear them in action

Vandersteens:

Pros
-Everything but the aesthetics and size

Cons
-The aesthetics and size
-possibly have some build issues over time (but I'm not really concerned about this)
-no warranty
-no ability to hear them in action

Klipsch
-the older ones are way to big, the newer ones get a lot of crap for their quality (or compared to the old ones, at least). And I can't demo these, and supposedly horn speakers are very hit or miss with each person. But, they would work with tubes and fill a room.

Revel Concerta F12
-A bit more than I really can spend, maybe not good with solid state, getting a bit on the big side

ProAc Studio 125
-Hard to find and listen to. Can't really find too much about them.

Paradigm Monitor7:
-I was able to demo these, and I liked them, but they seem like they have trouble filling a room, and they have all the limitations of slightly smaller speakers. But they have the benefits of being new and warranty.

As I said, the Vandy are, unfortunately, pretty much out of the race, as they are the only ones on this list that my wife specifically vetoed on aesthetic ground (and until I get a dedicated music room, I can understand her concerns). The same goes for the older Klipsch models. There also a bunch of other brands (Aperion, Axiom, DefTech, Focals, Pols, B&W, Totem, Vienna, Monitor Audio, KEF, Energy, Epos) that for one reason or another have yet to really stand out as valid or good possibilities.

Any last thoughts before I make a final decision on this. Is there anything above that I am wrong about or overemphasizing? Are there any last models that people might suggest I take a look at or at least consider?

(and thanks again for all of the help)

Rrog, when and where? Do you have a link?

Rrog, being a former vandersteen owner, I would have to agree with you.My former vandis were hooked to a audio research vs55,sweet sound.

Unsound, I don't have to, Vandersteen admits it.

I am an old fan of Vandersteens and I have had great sound with Vandersteen speakers and Audio Research, but before buying a pair of used Vandersteens I would have to know the life history.

blnd2spll, if the vandis are not what the wife would like, try to find a used pair of proac studio 125, I have owned the 1sc, 1.5 where i live i had a proac dealer right down the street from where i live. so i have spent alot of time listening to proacs the studio 125 are realy nice and in my opinion mate very well with tubes,and goodlooking speaker as well. but i must say proacs do need good amplification to sound their best.just another suggestion,good luck

if people get offended at opinions,maybe they should not be in threads,wow johneyb53 knows how to read from a speaker manual,If you listened to the question properly blnd2spll said he wanted 2 channel speakers does not really play music loud and wanted something that would sound good with tubes,and all i said was for what he is looking for the vandis would be a much beter speaker than the mirage being a former vandi owner and at the time had them paired with audio researth tubes it was a good sounding budget system. Mirage do not pear well with tubes not to say it is a bad speaker,but again for two channel and not playing loud music without question a vandersteen is the way to go over a mirage.i do not get into the mombo jumbo about specs,again listen to what the questio said thank you.

Rrog, can you provide supporting evidence for this claim?

I was going to recommend Vandersteen speakers, but I did not because they are a risky purchase when buying used. Vandersteen has an ongoing problem with heat build up in the crossover which can damage crossover parts and degrade the sound. This occurs when the speakers are played at high sound levels for extended periods of time.

Blnd2spll, The Vandys are a brilliant value oriented recommendation, and can match beautifully with another super audio value; the McCormack power amps. While they have a different overall balance, the Thiels share many design parameters, and a similar sonic presentation as the Vandersteens, with IME a much higher WAF. The downside of the Thiels is that they can be pretty demanding of high quality amplification.

OK, I was anticipating the WAF issue - why I hesitated with the Vandy recommendation up front, and why in part I suggested the 1c over the 2ce, which is just more of the Vandy thing visually. But the 2ce is closer to full range than any of the other speakers you or I have mentioned here.

High WAF with decent sound narrows the field some. I suggest focusing on Focal, Vienna, Monitor, Quad, anything used from Totem, and maybe the Aperions and the PSB G-Designs. One speaker I didn't mention earlier is the Paradigm SE. These are very nice looking and sounding speakers, a little more costly than the Paradigm Monitors.

Here is what I recommend, buy the best sounding and looking small floorstanders you can find new or used and be prepared to have to try several pairs in your space. Do the same with amplification - don't restrict yourself to tubes at this time and price point. I would plan on eventually supplementing your system with one or two subwoofers, since most small floorstanders are essentially stand mount speakers with an extra (small) woofer and a built-in stand.

I would also consider your room average size. I recommend ProAc speakers. They are easy to drive and sound good with tube amplifiers.

04-26-10: Blnd2spll
I am drawn to the Vandys because from what I can tell they have a reputation for being very musical speakers and have a very full and rich sound (even if that means a slight loss of detail). Are there any speakers that fit a similar description, but are a bit more wife-friendly?

The Mirage OMD-15s are very attractive and non-intrusive; they have a footprint of about 8x12" and are about 43" tall. They are available in elegantly understated high gloss piano black or more extroverted rosewood. Despite their modest size, with a good high current amp they have strong bass down to the low 30's, and are smooth and transparent with a nice rich sound. This does not mean they're boomy, tubby, or indistinct. They are very listenable on a wide range of material. Out of the box they sound OK, but they take awhile (100 + hours) to break in. As they break in, you find that they have superb resolution of low level detail, but never exaggerate it.

Johnnyb53 - I'm intrigued by the Mirages, but I can't find a lot of other reviews or discussions about them.

Home Theater mag review
Soundstage!
Home Theater Sound (an editor's choice)
OnSpeakers.com (pay no attention to their fear that they wouldn't be able to fill a large space; they can with ease)
Amazon user review
Crutchfield customer review
Buzzillions user review

Johnnyb53 - I'm intrigued by the Mirages, but I can't find a lot of other reviews or discussions about them. If you or anyone knows of some good resources, I'd love to research them a bit more.

Thanks for the responses so far. From what people have said, it sounds like the Vandersteens would be a great thing to look into, but I am pretty sure that my wife will veto them on aesthetic/size grounds (she's not a real music fan, so it's a bit of a give and take with my hobby).

I'm not really sure where that leaves me. I am drawn to the Vandys because from what I can tell they have a reputation for being very musical speakers and have a very full and rich sound (even if that means a slight loss of detail). Are there any speakers that fit a similar description, but are a bit more wife-friendly?

Hey Dmastri, in what way do you find Mirage floorstanders deficient? Can you articulate it beyond your "but Mirage? C'mon!" comment? What may be self-evident to you is not apparent to many of us.

The Mirages I recommended list at $2500/pair but are available right now at the OP's target price with return privileges and full factory warranty. They use cloth surround titanium dome tweeters and titanium-coated midrange and bass drivers. The enclosures are curved and tapered to avoid in-cabinet standing waves. Their crossovers, phasing, and dispersion patterns are based on at least three decades of research into psychoacoustics and room interactions. The Mirage M1, their initial bipolar design that started their bipolar/omnipolar/omnidirectional evolution, was a Stereophile Class A speaker. The second generation version was the personal choice of Brent Butterworth when he was editor of Home Theater magazine. And when Chris Martens of The Abso!ute Sound recently reviewed the OMD-15's big brother, the OMD-28, he bought the review pair and made it his reference.

Furthermore I listen regularly to a pair of the Mirages I recommended in a setting and application nearly identical to the OP's, and they fill the bill better than pretty much anything I could imagine at that price point.

I don't know why you think that Vandersteens are somehow several levels above Mirage. Vandersteens have always been good at imaging and phase relationships, of image focus, but Mirages have long been good at timbre accuracy, linearity, bass extension, and interacting with the room like live performers.

The Vandersteen 2Ce has a sensitivity rating of 86 dB and recommended amp range of 40-150 watts/channel. That's a pretty limited dynamic range and not so suitable for such a large listening space. The Mirage OMD-15 has a sensitivity rating of 91-93 dB, power handling of 250 watts, and can be biamped as well.