I’m from up there. 🔝
Speaker cable arrows???
I bought a used pair of Silverline Audio's Conductor cables. Plugged them in
and was very pleased with the neutral sound I was getting. Bare wire to the
speakers, and bananas on the amp end. Then I realized that the arrows on
the cables where pointing towards the amp. OOPS, I reversed the path
direction, and couldn't hear any difference. Zero.
My preference would be to have the bananas on the amp end.
Can I disobey the arrows, and run the cables effectively backwards?
and was very pleased with the neutral sound I was getting. Bare wire to the
speakers, and bananas on the amp end. Then I realized that the arrows on
the cables where pointing towards the amp. OOPS, I reversed the path
direction, and couldn't hear any difference. Zero.
My preference would be to have the bananas on the amp end.
Can I disobey the arrows, and run the cables effectively backwards?
186 responses Add your response
Time's up?🕰 It's going down the toilet?🚽 Put it to bed?🛌 This thread is no different than the mountain🗻 of threads that came before it and will come after it regarding directionality. Practically every response can be replaced with: "Is not!" "Is too!" No one changes anyone's mind, the same guys snipe at each other, and you inevitably break out those terrific little icons.... I'm not got doggin' ya!🌭 Gotta go, time for a cup of☕. |
glupson4,808 posts05-13-2020 1:37pm "In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality."Primarily maybe, only not. Which makes the explanation not quite strong. Sometimes, your posts are written so authoritatively that I have to look for the word that explains them differently. >>>>That’s because you’re a mental defective. 😳 |
This is an apples and oranges thing. This is a digital signal with very fast edge speeds, using RCA jacks. RCA jacks are not impedance controlled, and we have no idea whether any attempt at edge speed control (or termination) was implemented on the transmitting end to reduce reflection due to edge speeds that could have GHz components, unlike the 20Khz (ish) for analog audio. Al, (almarg), pointed out some where in the article, or a foot note, there is a follow up saying the directionality was due to the differences in the amount of solder used on one RCA connector than the other. Was it the solder? Beats me.... I remember that Stereophile article, and skimming it, remember some glaring errors, like claiming the DTI magically improves the jitter from the DAT deck, a conclusion that cannot be reached, because all the previous tests with the jitter tester showed, is that the jitter with the DAT and the jitter tester was high, which could (and most likely is) an incompatibility between the DAT and the jitter tester (including the cable), not necessarily high jitter in the DAT itself. Low driver level on the DAT output (possibly to be compatible with something else), and a high threshold voltage on the input logic of the jitter tester could have made it overly sensitive to reflections on the cable, which seems sort of self-evident given the significant difference in jitter by changing direction. Definitely some bad stuff going on there, at very high edge rates with non impedance controlled connections (hence the reason to move to BNC). |
"In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality."Primarily maybe, only not. Which makes the explanation not quite strong. Sometimes, your posts are written so authoritatively that I have to look for the word that explains them differently. |
Not a meltdown at all Geoffkait just antimythological. Some of us believe an incredible amount of pure fallacy. Some of us use fallacy to steal other people's money. Actually too many of us do that. Sometimes I have to stop and ask myself if that is what I am doing. I think it is built into our programming. In your case I don't think this is the problem. |
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heaudio Uhmmmm, most copper wires for flexible cable is annealed, which does cause recrystalization and improves conductivity, but importantly also makes it softer and more workable (and less likely to break). Some copper wire is intentionally not annealed to make it more difficult to hold a bend and increase tensile strength. Really, this is not a debatable item. It is done day in and day out and is well understood. >>>>Look 👀 You don’t have to be a genius to figure out that stretching metal or hammering it further deforms what is originally a symmetrical crystal structure. You do know metals are crystals, right? In the case the solid wire conductor being pulled through a die the deformation is primarily in 2 dimensions. Hence the directionality. 🔛 Follow? Sometimes when your posts are written so authoritatively I almost believe you really are an authority. 🤗 |
Uhmmmm, most copper wires for flexible cable is annealed, which does cause recrystalization and improves conductivity, but importantly also makes it softer and more workable (and less likely to break). Some copper wire is intentionally not annealed to make it more difficult to hold a bend and increase tensile strength. Really, this is not a debatable item. It is done day in and day out and is well understood. |
I pulled it from how copper wire is manufactured. I know very little about it and this directional idea got me wondering as it made no sense to me. So I went and found out as much as I could on how they take copoer from the ore stage to the final wire that's drawn through the die and then on to annealing which isn't even the end of it but for this direction of crystals in wire it is. |
Apparently all you have to do is mention wire polishing and suddenly all the helmet polishers come out of the woodwork. djones51 After they pull wire it goes through annealing and recrystalization occurs. Controlled for direction is market speak. The current doesn’t care a whit which way the wire is oriented. >>>>>Speaking of pulling where did you pull that out of? |
OK, so pulling the wire through the final die deforms the symmetrical metal crystals of the wire especially on the surface but also below the surface, probably all the way to the center of the wire. Then the metals crystals look like the quills on a porcupine’s back. So which way is easier to stroke the quills, against the grain or with the grain? It’s the same idea with the signal traveling down the wire, it wants to travel with the grain. When the signal travels against the grain it gets distorted. That’s why AudioQuest controls their cables for wire directionality AND polishes the surface of the conductors. Better safe than sorry! 😐 |
heaudio123 Me thinks Nordost marketing people come to audio forums for inspiration ;-) >>>>>>Actually, Nordost is like you. They are agnostic when it comes to directionality. They must have the same “gut feeling“ you do. 😬 |
br3098 I’m not trying to convince you and I know I shouldn’t have responded to your or anyone’s post about this. If you hear a difference I’m happy for you. I mean that seriously. I don’t, and the math doesn’t support the outcome you propose. But that doesn’t affect your listening pleasure. >>>>What a nice guy! If you don’t hear it that’s the way it goes sometime. But it’s you and about five other dudes who don’t against 50,000 who do. Guess who wins? 🤗 |
@jea48 Jim, I really do appreciate your thoughtful answer. I'm not the smartest guy in the world (you heard it here first) but I am pretty well educated in math, physics, chemistry and metallurgy. Every explanation I have heard of signal directionality in a low voltage passive cable has been marketing fluff. I'll use this for example, from Nordost: When cables are manufactured they do not have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality.But wait, it gets better: Although the cable signal is an alternating current, small impurities in the conductor act as diodes allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. This effect is also called quantum tunneling, which has been observed in experiments over 25 years ago. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are still diode effects in all conductors. In addition, the insulation material will change when it is subjected to an electrical field.[sound of me laughing hysterically] Quantum tunnelling. It's a real thing, but it's quantum mechanics and the theoretical potential barrier only occurs at the subatomic level. Doesn't affect wave propagation though normal materials, at least at temperatures and pressures you and I can survive at. I'm not trying to convince you and I know I shouldn't have responded to your or anyone's post about this. If you hear a difference I'm happy for you. I mean that seriously. I don't, and the math doesn't support the outcome you propose. But that doesn't affect your listening pleasure. Bill |
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@jea48 What's the point of linking back to this very thread? I have asked you twice to please explain to me how signal directionality happens or is possible in a passive cable. All you have done is ask me to re-read the yours and others opinions on the subject. As one of my Geology professors explained to me many years ago "if you can't explain it to someone else then you don't understand it yourself." |
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So, you appear to take the position that you yourself don’t have to wait for test results for directionality. Controlled blind test or whatever, that it’s a foregone conclusion that directionality is not audible. That sounds about right. Your main arguments seem to be it’s your gut feeling and anyone who hears it must be crazy. You don’t even have to do any tests, tests are for the other guys, the naive schmucks. Not very scientific, but what the heck! 🤗 Nice manifesto! |
You may be sure, but I think most others would find it to be a equivalency that is not false. It illustrated the difference between factually different, and detectable by human alone different, which is the argument on any cable directionality discussion. I would never take the position that all cables are not "directional" at a high enough frequency in a given system as there will always be a high enough frequency, for a given length, and a large enough signal to noise ratio that they will be directional. I take the position, that within the sphere of human detectable audio difference, they are not directional. As I have yet to see anyone measure a significant enough difference, factually illustrate how there could be a significant enough difference, or show, in reasonably controlled conditions, an audible difference (including ones I have ran), I have had no reason to change my position. If someone want to believe there is and plays around with it, I am not going to stop them, but I would point out that repeated removal and connections of wires is often a good cleaning process, and for interconnects, rotating the RCA can help with this as well. |
You now seem to suggest the signal comprises audio frequencies, I.e, the audio waveform. Is that what you’re saying? I don’t wish to put words in your mouth. The Non symmetrical crystal structure I’m referring to Is the deformation to the natural copper or silver crystal structure that occurs when the wire is drawn through a die, especially to the surface but also below the surface of the wire. “I am not going to be able to tell the difference between a 1lb and a 1.001lb weight in my hand, though it can be easily measured.” >>>>>>> I’m pretty sure that argument is a logical fallacy. |
What difference? - If the difference is not frequency dependent, or at least the dependency on frequency is small within the audio frequency band, then the impact of crystal structure would be akin to changing wire size. - I am not aware of any non-linearities w.r.t. crystal structure either that could cause distortion, and there does not appear to be any energy storage mechanism of note either. Where I am aware of crystal structure being an issue is at extremely high current densities allowed when temperatures reach superconducting levels. Making a difference, and making a difference that is anywhere near the realm of audible, are the critical discussion points. I am not going to be able to tell the difference between a 1lb and a 1.001lb weight in my hand, though it can be easily measured. Why wouldn’t the non-symmetrical crystal structure of drawn wire also make a difference in the signal transmission? Especially if the non symmetry was visible on the surface of the wire. Yes? No? |
I don’t wish to put words in anyone’s mouth but nobody said the electromagnetic signal travels outside the conductor. What heaudio123 has been saying is the *energy* travels mostly outside the conductor - I.e., the magnetic and electric fields, which are not the signal itself. So far we haven’t nailed down what the signal actually is, a current, a charge, a voltage, an electromagnetic wave, a frequency, etc. |
Riddle me this one fellers, If the electromagnetic signal is carried almost exclusively outside a quality conductor, and electrons within do not actually move but vibrate, what does the signal care how the metal lattice is structured? My apologies if this was already covered, the sniping got old quickly..... |
heaudio123"Not wrong, but not accurate either. "Perhaps rather than dismiss, reject, and deny some one’s statement you will offer some day provide and offer you’re own meaningful, cogent, thoughtful reply, response, and explanation as to why something is "not accurate." |
You said at high frequencies. Frequencies of what? You also said audio transmission. What audio transmission are you referring to? The audio waveform? Current, voltage, Poynting vectors? Something else? You also said the conductor material (and purity, I assume) makes a difference in the signal transmission. Why wouldn’t the non-symmetrical crystal structure of drawn wire also make a difference in the signal transmission? Especially if the non symmetry was visible on the surface of the wire. Yes? No? |
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Also, the way I always see the skin effect stated, the “high frequencies” travel nearer to the surface - but not outside the conductor - whereas lower frequencies travel closer to the center of the conductor.
Not wrong, but not accurate either. Electrical field penetrates conductor, moves charges, induces magnetic field, but the majority of the fields are outside the conductor, and the product of the fields, the power transfer is near 0 in the conductor. At high frequencies, the electrical field does not penetrate very far into the conductor and hence the charge only near the surface of the conductor moves. The fields are still mainly outside the conductor and again, the product of the two fields (power) is near 0. |
So, you believe the “audio signal” travels inside the conductor, right? Regardless of whether the skin effect applies or not. I’ll ask again, the frequency of what? It's moot where the "signal" moves, what matters is if the effects are relevant at the frequencies of interest in the system in which they are installed. All cables in a given system will have some directional aspects at high enough frequencies, but a 10 foot cable at 2/3 the speed of light means the signal takes 10 nanoseconds from the amp to the speakers, and neither the amplifier nor the speaker are a set impedance, and they certainly are not "matched". Any transmission line effects will be 100's of db below the signal. So what else could be "directional"? Pretty much all that is left, absent intentional directionality (i.e. added RLC elements), is differences in lumped bulk RLC parameters based on the direction. However, the bulk RLC of any half-decent cable should be such that frequency dependent impact on transmission is a fraction of a db, meaning also no detectable phase shift by any human on the planet (we are terrible at detecting phase-shift that is the same on both channels), and since directional changes in the bulk RLC are orders of magnitude less that the bulk RLC, that fraction of a db now becomes thousandths of a db .... obviously undetectable. It's fine to talk about single crystal copper (which improves by high temperature annealing, not cryogenic processing, but I digress), and it is recognized to have better conductivity at low frequency, there is no evidence of any frequency dependent effects that could impact audio transmission. |
That's the way I have always read it. https://www.belden.com/blog/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency |
Again, frequency of what? For that matter the energy of what, the “signal.” But what is the signal? Pardon the question. The audio waveform is not traveling down the wire or cable. If not the audio waveform, what else has frequency? Not current, not voltage, not the magnetic field, not the electric field. The alternating frequency? Also, the way I always see the skin effect stated, the “high frequencies” travel nearer to the surface - but not outside the conductor - whereas lower frequencies travel closer to the center of the conductor. Is that completely wrong? |