In contrast to all that has been said, I must admit to really digging the occasional formative tune on my trucks sound system! Imaging is meaningless and rarely thought of in such circumstances but does not diminish the aural pleasure in the least. If the music is tight, and you are feeling right...well, ya know what I mean:)
Soundstaging and Imaging: The Delusion about The Illusion
Soundstaging in a recording—be it a live performance or studio event—and it’s reproduction in the home has been the topic of many a discussion both in the forums and in the audio press. Yet, is a recording’s soundstage and imaging of individual participants, whether musicians or vocalists, things that one can truly perceive or are they merely illusions that we all are imagining as some sort of delusion?
https://www.stereophile.com/content/clowns-left-me-jokers-right
https://www.stereophile.com/content/clowns-left-me-jokers-right
75 responses Add your response
If someone wants to use a tricked-up stereo test disk or LP to demonstrate "where I am standing is to the right of, to the left of, in front of, behind of, under or above the right speaker," then have at it and be convinced that imaging exists. The point of the Stereophile article is whether soundstaging is real in an audio recording played back via a stereo reproduction system. The article is sufficiently cogent to express the view that the answer depends on many things. Recall Bose 901’s? That ratio of 1 (direct) to 9 (reflected) reproduced sound model was based upon acoustic hall characteristics in several well-known halls. A lot of audiophiles rejected the concept, suggesting that certain illusions are not accepted as adequate facsimiles of the "real thing" for all things. |
@celander - your last post suggests that you don't believe imaging exists in a reproduction system. I don't need "test" recordings to establish what I hear. It is a "real illusion" to me, that depends on the recording. The Bose example is interesting. Did you know that Bose sued Consumer Union for a bad review? What is your position, now that we've given you our (various) views? |
I’m pretty sure I can break this deadlock. Reverberant decay, echo, acoustic reflections, and any other naturally occuring dynamic acoustic phenomena found in the recording venue for live recordings are captured by the microphones and form the basis of the venue’s “soundstage” when played back on a reasonably good system. This soundstage information is contained in mono and stereo recordings. “A Reasonably good system” obviously being subjective. 🤗 In fact, as I’ve written, the actual Time-Space of the recording is captured on the recording but that’s beyond scope and best saved for another day. 😛 |
| Post removed |
Absolutely no illusion, you would hear the same thing I'm hearing in a given room where there is "holography" meaning a 3 dimensional image. I first heard this 30 years ago in a high end emporium, the speakers were B&W, I don't remember the electronics; and then again in another high end emporium. I recall the components the second time, they were all top of the line Audio Research electronics, including CD player and the speakers were Thiel. It took 30 years, but I have recreated this illusion in my listening room. While you can get good imaging with decent electronics, I don't believe you can get "holography" with less than Class "A" electronics. The first thing to do is get a good audio image; left, right and center. Although you may believe that everything depends on your components, and how you set your speakers up, that's not the case. The final phase depends on room treatment, and it's the most difficult to get. I got it right by following others suggestions, and sheer luck. Since every room is different, all I can tell you is, "Good luck". |
Regarding tostadosunidos comments on the topic of the ability of a pair of speakers to reproduce depth: I first heard the effect on the occasion of hearing a true high end system for the first time, a system being delivered and set up by Bill Johnson at his new ARC dealer in Livermore California (Bill was a pilot, and flew his own plane to dealer locations). It was a pair of the Magneplanar Tympani T-1 loudspeakers (which ARC was then distributing) bi-amped with a PC-1 passive x/o and D51 and D75 power amps, source a Thorens TD-125 Mk.2 turntable/ARC prototype arm/Decca Blue pickup into an SP-3 pre-amp. Bill put a British EMI pressing of Holst’s The Planets on the table, and when the Jupiter movement played, there it was---the front row of the orchestra instruments were on the plane of the Tympanis, the back row (percussion) waaaay back from that plane. I had closed my eyes as the movement began, and at the shock of hearing the extreme depth of field opened them. I found myself looking at the wall behind the speakers, amazed by how much closer the wall was than the back of the orchestra appeared to be. The back of the orchestra appeared to be further away than the wall! When an orchestra is recorded with a very small mic set-up (I believe EMI engineers employed the Decca 3-mic "tree" technique---3 mics facing the orchestra), the sound from the instruments furthest away from the mics are picked up by the mics later in time than those closest to them. When played back, that time differential is reproduced as the difference in distance. In contrast, a recording of an orchestra made employing close mic’ing contains no such depth information, so should be reproduced without it as well. |
Wharf: The poster didn’t comment about the size of his audio system to that of his listening room. He specifically focused on the reproduced soundstage in his listening room. Had the poster said something about a frequency aberration in the room, like too much booming bass, then I would have concluded it was something about the sound system being out of kilt in the room. Yet the poster suggested the room was “cutting off” the soundstage of reproduced sound. |
@bdp24 - i heard that system a few times with the original big Tympani panels. When I bought my SP 3 and Dual 75a back in the day, the dealer demo’d the units I bought on just such a system. And I got to meet William Zane J in the early days as well when he was making the rounds- he was a pretty intimidating guy judging by how the dealer wanted to make sure he was happy. I wasn’t old enough, or invested enough in the ’business’ of the stuff (I slung gear as a kid and was an enthusiast) to care what he thought, other than that it was cool to meet him since he had already achieved legendary status, thanks in part to Harry Pearson, but man, that stuff sounded so good compared to most of the other gear around then. One interesting anecdote on records. I’ve long had copies of "Way Out West," a sort of classic jazz warhorse that gets played periodically because, well, Sonny Rollins. I never found a clean early pressing for reasonable money, so relied on remasters. The original Analogue Productions cut, which I think was cut by Doug Sax, sounded pretty good, but it had a giant hole in the middle- very typical of early stereo hard panning. I eventually got a 45 cut that Hoffman and Gray did and it had an image in the middle. I asked Hoffman what was up with that - he said that the resolution of that cut was so much better (whether source tape, mastering chain or technique, I dunno) that I was hearing a center image because of the sound bouncing off the back wall of the room where it was recorded. I’ve still got an original stereo cut on my ’list’ for that one..... Back to our regularly scheduled program.... |
Trying to get the soundstage correct without a methodology is like trying to solve a bunch of simultaneous equations with more unknowns than the number of equations. Moving the speakers a little and listening a little is doomed from the start. To compound the problem, when you improve room acoustics and or improve the system, what then? Move a little, listen a little? 😛 |
I’m a hopeless believer in imaging and soundstaging. In reproduced music via a 2-channel audio system, it’s likely none of us fully understands the original recordings in terms of the original recording notes. That’s the critical issue: absent detailed knowledge of the original recording, how would one proceed to fully appreciate the accuracy of reproduced sound on one’s audio system? |
celander That’s the critical issue: absent detailed knowledge of the original recording, how would one proceed to fully appreciate the accuracy of reproduced sound on one’s audio system?That's why there's no substitute for making your own recordings. And with today's equipment, it's easier than ever to do that and get outstanding results. |
