Sorry to ask this SACD question, but

curiousjim
Much Thanks! for the update.  Happy Listening!

very true curious

One of the things I hear in some DVD-As or SACDs sounds like congestion, which COULD be because of their much higher frequency range and my 175wpc class D simply runs out of gas in my large room.

I ordered a EVS 1200 amp (class D, 600 wpc, dual mono) check it out if you want to go to the next level class D: currently only $2200, 30 day in home PLUS free return shipping

jafant,

<<Any comparisons between DSD and PCM on your SACD player?>>
I really don’t hear ANY difference.  

JD

I have been doing just that since getting a new WireWorld XLR

It depends on the recording.

I have listened to several Chesky DVD-A over the last few days after a long list of SACDs over the prior week

Even amongst the 4 Cheskys, the Livingston Taylor sounds the best

I don’t play redbook through the 105 as it sounds much better through my Marantz HD CD 1 and Audio Alchemy DAC/pre via WireWorld coak

The 105 is a jack of all trades but a master of none. That said the DVD-A and SACDs can sound really good

hth

curiousjim
Any comparisons between DSD and PCM on your SACD player?
Happy Listening!

tweak1
The OPPO 95 has XLR

With Oppo, you have two options: DSD or PCM play out. I can't hear any SQ difference. You can navigate through the setup. Don’t use variable out, use XLR fix line-out which give you the best SQ.

@curiousjim is quite correct about the Oppo players. I tried to get the  best two channel  audio, as I listen to  both SACD and DVD-A, from the Oppo. Unfortunately the DSD signal gets  converted back to PCM when you try to use the XLX/RCA, as well as multi-channel analog outputs.

If you are a DVD-A/ PCM  guy then you can enjoy it, but you will have to stay with the HDMI connection to enjoy pure DSD. To  try to solve this dilemma I upgraded to a Yamaha CD-2100 player.; which is now in a separate stereo system. You mention you looked at the CD-1000. For SCAD playback the 2100 will play back SACD 2 Hz to 50kHz and the playback range for the  player is up 96kHz. It is not entirely clear from reading their O  & M and reading the  few reviews online, if this in native DSD. I  hope so as that is one of the main reasons I  bought the player. This player will not play the multi-channel layer on a SACD.

I would  think if you wan to listen to higher resolution you would only be able to use the  DAC and the optical or coaxial digital outputs only.

Regardless this player sound exceptional playing redbook CD and SACDs. The DAC sounds exceptional as well with the Steinberg.

My Oppo 103 plays SACD and ADVDSs thru the analog outs or thru the HDMI out but not thru a coaxial / optical connection. It explains it in the owners manual.

curiousjim
Good to read that everything worked out. Happy Listening!

Hi jafant,

 I have everything working and then had family in for the last couple weeks.  No listening time at all!  Still have one in town, but I should have more time soon.

Thanks for asking.

JD

curiousjim
how is the SACD playback via your Oppo working out?
Happy Listening!

glupson, It’s funny 
now that I finally got the Oppo to play SACD’s I can set it on DSD or PCM and they both sound the same. Is that supposed to happen or is it my hearing going?

JD

"...converts DSD to PCM, but upscales it to 192/24..."

My understanding, and that one is very very very limited, is that DSD and PCM do things somehow differently. However, the numbers attached are typically in MHz for DSD and KHz for PCM. I remember seeing advertisements for SACD that were comparing CD resolution (44 KHz) and touting that SACD is 60+ (64) higher. That would imply that those numbers matter. In that case, 2.8 MHz would be way above 192 KHz. Why is conversion from DSD to 24/192 KHz called upscaling then? Is there something else at play?

In my experience, I tried SACDs converted to different file formats and different resolutions with the highest ones being 24/192 WAV and FLAC, I cannot tell the difference between DSD and 24/192 with any certainty. It may be my shortcoming or it may really be negligible.

     As I understand it, Oppos (and some other players) have two setting for SACD. One is to set it to bitstream, in which case, the SACD/DSD digital stream will travel over HDMI into whatever the next component is (typically a receiver). Most receivers will play SACD by converting it to PCM and playing it (at varying resolutions, depending on the receiver). Some receivers will convert the DSD directly to analog and play it. There's a great debate on various sites on which sounds "better."
     Alternatively, you can set the SACD player to PCM in your player. In this case, the player converts the SACD/DSD digital to PCM. If played through the analog outputs of the payer, it will then convert it to analog and play. Or, it can be transferred over coax, optical or HDMI to the receiver and decoded to analog there. Some players (the Oppos, I think) can convert the DSD digital directly to analog. This is useful because you can have the system set to bitstream (which will pass the DSD digitally to the receiver to decode), while if you switch to a different input that has the analog cables, the Oppo will convert and play over the analog outputs. My Cambridge 752bd converts DSD to PCM, but upscales it to 192/24, before converting it to analog, so I have to choose between bitstreaming (receiver decodes) or PCM (the player upscales and decodes).
     My understanding is that coax or optical cables don't have the bandwidth to transmit the DSD stream digitally - it can only go via HDMI. So I don't think that you can do want you want to (at least without a non-normal process like others here have suggested. 

curiousjim

I have enjoyed reading this thread. There is sound advice as above. Looking forward in reading more about you and your system once completed.

Happy Listening!

Just remember that SONY UBP-X800 does not have analog RCA outputs, if they are ever needed. However, it may be the cheapest and simplest solution for questions/intentions from the original post.

Reportedly the Sony UBP-x800 will output 176.4/24 thru the coaxial connection playing SACDs. This would be PCM, of course but it would play. I wonder if it would be an improvement on what you have already.

tweak1,

You are right, I missed that "105" written lower in the post but did catch "XLR". However, I am far from an Oppo expert (I think I have physically seen only one in my life) and actually have no idea which one has XLR and which one does not. My question about the model, as silly as it seems now when I realize you have written it in the same post as the erroneous one, was to ensure more structure in this "Oppo, SONY, Yamaha, Denon, digital, RCA, Schiit, analog, HDMI" salad. It was really not picking on you or ill-intentioned in any way. I promise.

My friend has not contacted Oppo, he just lives with it, but does have the latest firmware installed. Whatever that really means in practice. Now, when I think of it, I have a feeling that his player has been freezing more and more often. Maybe something is dying in there. These things do have their lifespan. Maybe his is nearing the end despite being very lightly used (I would guess less than a disc a day on average) and he bought it later in the model life cycle.

glup,

further down not only did I state 105, but using XLRs which are only available on the 105/205 players...: 

"And since the 105 is currently my only source it auto selects SACD only, but via the analog outs, which in my case is XLRs"

Has your friend contacted Oppo to see whether they have an update that could solve his issues  

A friend of mine has an Oppo, I believe it is 105 with Darbee something, player. It is great except that it freezes or crashes relatively often. Sometimes a few times a day. The disc does not eject, nothing works. You have to turn it off, even that becomes more than just quick press on the button, and wait and restart and then, most of the time, it works. Not always, though.

On the other hand, it may play for a month with no problem. Maybe it needs a few cups of coffee to work, too.

Maybe the glitch we have been reading about does have something to do with Oppo software.

tweak1,

I assumed it was you hitting 9 instead of 0 by accident but I just wanted to make sure as Oppo did make 95 and 105 so, in theory, it could have been either.

EDIT: To make it sillier, as I was writing the above sentence, I wrote "9 instead of one".

This may be one of the more confusing threads in recent memory that actually had some meaning in the beginning.

"One final question ( I hope)…….The question is so does the DSD setting."

That is the statement, what is the question?

Is the original post still relevant? Were the answers satisfactory or we abandoned it, or we somehow tangled them with Oppo instructions?

Are we still welcome to try to help with answers or we are welcome to read about the progress with items we do not know what they are?

glupson

Well not exactly. I did state which however what I wrote was, 

"Oppo as I want to compare the SACD hybrid layer on my 195."

so I missed that I hit the 9 instead of the 0, but, Oppo doesn't make a 195.

Shouldn't we all have been able to make that correction

uberwaltz,

So I'm just finishing my third cup and I have unplugged the Toslink and the Digital RCA from the Oppo and I am still happily listening to the stereo layer. I'm guessing something was stuck with the Optical hardware, but I'm not an expert.  The HDMI video is still plugged into a TV so I can see the menus, and the HDMI audio was never plugged in before last night, and is now unplugged once again.

One final question ( I hope),  So both you and my Oppo manual ( same thing ;) ) say to use the PCM setting, and it works. YEAH!  The question is so does the DSD setting.  I have turned the Oppo off and on with each and every change so I'm pretty sure it's not a fluke.

Maybe a 4th cup of coffee in called for?

JD

tweak1,

"...SACD hybrid layer on my 195."

I assume it is 105 and not 95. (I make that 9 to 0 or vice versa error all the time).

Confusing, but excellent that you can, at least, use it for SACDs in the way they were designed to be listened to.

Unfortunately, it does nothing for your wish to play it via an external DAC as you stated in the original post.

We keep on adding players. We started with Denon and Yamaha, switched to Oppo along the way, and now added SONY.

Can we also add what model numbers we are talking about? They may not all work the same (from the same manufacturer). Not because of curiousjim, uberwaltz, or me. Some day, someone may revisit this thread looking for similar answers and she/he may find it helpful to know what exactly we were talking about. It may save that person some time of tapping in the dark.

Glad to hear success Jim!

I think what is happening is that even with HDMI turned off in the menu, if the OPPO sees one actually connected( even on the video side) it takes over as priority.

Good move!

So last night I hooked a Sony to a smart tv with HTMI and Optical out to a receiver. I played the SACD stereo layer.  I hooked up the Oppo the same way and it also played the SACD stereo layer.
Than I did something I hadn’t tried before, I plugged in a Toslink and a digital RCA into the Oppo and removed the HDMI, and plugged in the Analog RCA’s back in.  Both the Toslink and the Digital RCA were plugged into other devices and are working as they should.   IT WORKED!  I was able to listen to the SACD stereo layer form the Analog RCA’s! Than I went to bed, confused but happy.

Later today I’m going to unplug the Toslink and then the Digital RCA and see what happens.

I need coffee...

JD

I recently contacted Oppo as I want to compare the SACD hybrid layer on my 195. Apparently it cannot be done, or it might, IF connected to a monitor where I can switch settings. Even it that works it would mean keeping the monitor connected

And since the 105 is currently my only source it auto selects SACD only, but via the analog outs, which in my case is XLRs

I also have a dac pre connected via Optical and coax, but the hybrid layer will not play through them

Odd, but true

curiousjim,


In essence, in your original post you seem not to be interested in playing SACD through an outboard DAC in its native DSD(ISO) form but converted to PCM. Is it because the Schiit DAC you mentioned cannot play DSD, but does play 176.4 PCM files?

To answer the end question from your original post,

"What else do I need to play SACD at 176.4khz "

You would need:

-SACD

-appropriate SACD player (that gets very specific and, surprise, cheap)

-modem

-computer

-program for conversion from DSD to PCM (dbPoweramp, for example, although I do not think it will get you to 176.4, Korg Audiogate may but I would need to check it)

-cable for connecting computer (file player) and DAC

At that point, you will not be spinning actual SACDs anymore, but files of some sort from a hard drive of some sort.

curiousjim,

It has been a while so I got a bit confused.

Your original post links to Yamaha and Denon, but we are trying to fix Oppo. It might have gotten added along the way as you already have it.

We are all talking about analog RCA outputs playing converted SACD/DSD but one of your posts implies that you are also interested in digital SACD output...

"RCA and Optical can’t handle the amount of info and I’m not sure about Balanced. It looks like USB will work but there are only a few SACD players in my price range that have USB outputs."

In original post you are asking about playing SACD through an outboard DAC for which would be logical to be interested in digital SACD output.

Could you rephrase/clarify your intentions (models included) so we can try to rephrase/clarify answers? If it is many of them, we will dissect each separately. Right now, it is way too tangled.

Mahler123

My old bdp80 will output dsd from sacd over HDMI.

So the OP has OPPO 93 or 95 I think so should be Ok over hdmi

Not entirely sure why it does not play sacd over the RCA analog outputs.

Both my Oppo 105 and 203 can be programmed to export DSD from SACD.  Not sure about earlier models

I guess the last word on this belongs to OPPO.

DSD from SACD can be output over hdmi to any compatible hdmi device ( tv, av receiver, dac etc)

DSD from SACD can be output over RCA analog output to any compatible device, (pre amp, integrated, receiver etc), providing hdmi is set to off.

Actually I have to retract that last statement.

I could have sworn with that setup as described I played SACD but it seems not so my bad!
CD,BluRay audio and DVD audio yes, SACD no.

So just SACD out of OPPO over RCA analog outputs only with NO other cables plugged in at all( besides power😇).

Jim
You are more than welcome, hate to see people struggle especially when have been there too many times to count myself.

However just one more thing that may work for you.

This is actually how I run my OPPO as I really only use it for movies, I play sacd most of time on the old pioneer on my second system.

So my OPPO is connected to my tv by hdmi and set to output sacd over hdmi. Then I take a toslink digital out from the tv back to my dac where I now have sacd sound from the sacd layer on the disc.

Sounds klutzy but it works and the sq is actually pretty good although I am sure somebody will come along and poopoo the method!

Now I think you said you had success with playing sacd layer over hdmi so if your tv has a digital output you may be able to do the same as I do.

Good luck!

uberwaltz,

I might just look around for a used SACD player to make the test.

And uberwaltz, if I haven't said it before,  Thank you for taking some of your time to help me with this. I have been puzzling over it for months, but now I might have a lead. 

JD

electro69,

I don’t think Sony has anything to do with this.  I’m sure Oppo paid and installed what ever they had to in order to play SACDs.
 I’m thinking that my issue is with the Oppo, but for mechanical issues.

I’ll be sure to let you know.

JD

Jim

Only one thing I can add possible as both myself and Glupson have said.

I fear that if the OPPO sees ANY digital cable plugged in regardless of menu settings it will not output over rca.

So only suggestion I have left is to make sure you ONLY have the rca analog outs plugged in while trying, if the hdmi is plugged in or a toslink or a spdif it will likely be the cause.

If that has already been tried or does not work then yes Google may be your best friend!

When I said rca are shut off if a digital cable is plugged in I meant just to the sacd layer, it would still output over rca from the cd layer . Yes it is confusing, blame the corporations involved in the money side of it!

Sorry it is giving you so much grief!

glupson,

The Oppo has an HDMI audio output and a HDMI Video output.
The audio has never been plugged in.

Logically, what you are saying makes sense. But it still is working in this case. As I just said to uberwaltz, I am getting the feeling that the issue is with the spinner.

Thank for your input.

JD 

 uberwaltz,

I did everything my manual said. I did everything you said, and the Tv screens says yes, but the speakers say no.  The CD layer plays just fine. I added a digital rca, CD. I added aToslink, CD. RCA only, nothing.  
You just said that the RCA’s are shut off when you plug in a digital or Toslink cable.  Not on mine.  Could the problem be there?  

From you and others are saying, I’m beginning to think it’s the 
Oppo.

Hello Google my old friend.

Thanks again for your help.

JD

Glupson

Correct!

I said that about 20 posts ago!

My Pioneer does EXACTLY that!

If a digital cable is connected, sacd output to the analog outputs is shut off.

It is very likely the OPPO is the same.

Best way to hear DSD is via ripped or purchased files playing via a streamer or computer through a stereo or multichannel DAC you can use for example an early PS3 or Oppo 105  to rip. Or buy from native DSD online etc.

Most importantly the best sound is achieved playing it as DSD not PCM so outputting 24/176 is not ideal.

Oppo can play SACDs via its internal DACS and output via RCAs and sounds pretty good. Oppos can also output DSD over HDMI but this is pointless as the AV amp you connect to will downconvert to PCM and most do this at 16/44

SACD uses copy protection to prevent the data being sent via a digital cable as others have said. Early examples of digital connection were proprietary to Sony (SCD XA9000es) and DCS using FireWire cables. HDMI can be used to send it as it has the High Definition Copyright Protection standard. 

However it was possible with early PS3 see thread here and that may be your cheapest option.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/using-ps3-as-an-sacd-player-voice-cancellation-issue.214006/

"According to the OP they cannot get any sound over the analog outputs, which is most peculiar."

I am not sure about Oppo, but some machines disengage internal DAC when something is connected to a digital output.

In this case, I would disconnect HDMI (or whatever digital connection is there) from the player when attempting to listen to a SACD via RCA/balanced outputs. I would not even just turn those off but rather pull them out from the player for a test. Just a thought.

"How's everyone else playing SACDs?"

Maybe by bypassing the player altogether. Rip the files into DSD and play through any DAC you wish (as long as it works with DSD).

According to the OP they cannot get any sound over the analog outputs, which is most peculiar.

Maybe my OPPO menu settings will help.

SACDs are meant to be decoded internally by the player, just use the analog outs on the player over to your preamp and good to go.