Sonus Faber Amati Tradition or Serafino G2

That's a really large space and if your listening taste includes having a robust bass foundation both of those speakers will be challenged.  The previous gen Amati were known to be beautiful sounding speakers but bass shy.  I spent some time with the Amati's in a large space like yours and the Mac MA12000 driving them was having a hard time.  I'm pretty sue at some point it was clipping.  Moving on to the new gen SF, they addressed the bass and the Amati and Sarafino's have more bass presence.  Between the old gen Amati and current gen Sara's they should be very similar.

If I were you I would consider looking for a used Il Cremonese.   For whatever reason the Il Cremonese are not holding their value all that well and they are steeply discounted on the second hand market.  I would take a hard look at that option.  Good luck and cheers.

Thank you so much for your response. You make valid point. I will look into Cremonese as well. However, I suspect they might be too big in our room from an esthetic perspective (this is a family room that our family uses to hangout and entertainment space). I typically do not listen to music more than 75db avg. spl.  Based on your experience, do you think MA12000 would drive these speakers well at moderate volumes?

You have an excellent integrated in you rack and I would suggest only changing one variable in your system at a time.  Settle on your new speakers and see how they play with your Accuphase. Then, if your not satisfied, audition different eclectonics.  I wasn't recommending the MA12000, just communicating my experience that the Amati's were lacking bass and at reference levels perhaps the electronics were holding them back.  Keep in mind that the SF speakers are already warm sounding and putting a tube pre-amp stage in front of them will only make them even warmer.  

Thanks again for your guidance here. Make a lot of sense. Also, would like to hear from other of their experiences with these two speakers. I am just trying to gather as much information as possible at this time.

I went through a similar analysis a couple of years ago. I had Serafinos and was looking to upgrade to the Amati. Both are great speakers and I have a fairly large room as you do. The Amati Filled the room better, and I thought gave you a little more of everything over the smaller Serafinos.

I had a chance to audition the Il Cremonese And I thought it was at a different level. Not just a larger speaker, with a significant jump in sound quality. Better bass control, more dynamic, and bigger soundstage. I bought the Il Cremonese and I’ve been very satisfied. if you like the SF sound, I don’t think you can go wrong here, all are great speakers, but worth giving a listen to the reference level, particularly for a room your size

I recently faced a similar decision in an even larger room with 20ft ceilings and slightly wider dimensions, while considering the Amati Homage versus the Serafino G2. I had the chance to listen to the Amatis powered by the McIntosh MC1.25KWs. While they certainly had impact, I found the low end to be loose, tubby, and not as well-controlled or musical as I preferred. Although the store didn’t have the Serafinos, they did have the Olympica Nova Vs. I found these to be much better controlled, though slightly inferior in the high end. The Amatis were clearly superior in the mid/high, where the Olympicas were just so much more refined and controlled (but still powerful) in the bass.

For me, the Serafino G2s struck the perfect balance, especially when paired with a set of 12" JLAudio E-Subs. I’ve been enjoying this new setup for about two weeks and couldn’t be happier. It fills the room beautifully with refined control, delivering the intrinsic Sonus faber sound signature that initially drew me to the brand.

Add subs no mater what you choose.

Thank you for all your responses. This certainly helps as I narrow down the search. 
 

@blockdaddy21 thank you for sharing your experience. This certainly aligns with what I have read up on these two. I am now looking to find a used Amati G5 that might be the best of both. I understand that these have the refinement of mids and highs of Serafino G2 with much more controlled and impactful bass power compared to previous gen. 

may I ask what have you been using the drive your Serafinos and any feedback in that?

@rock112 To be clear, my audition was of the latest Amati G5s (Homage series), so I’m not sure you’d be satisfied going up to that level. That’s why the Serafino Homage (G2) was the fitting compromise.

Driving my Serafinos is a Goldmund SR150 putting out 200wpc into 4 ohms. That was part of the consideration for me - I wanted a speaker I could drive reasonably well without moving from my favorite amp. Not only were the Amatis more money, but I’d also have to look at a considerably more substantial amp to have a chance with the Amatis, meaning even more investment.
 

The Serafinos with my Goldmund and some Nordost Frey are glorious. Clear, controlled, balanced, deep and wide sound stage, and with that little bit of golden honey sweetness that is the Sonus faber magic. 

@blockdaddy21 thank for the clarification. I assumed you were referring to Amare Homage Tradition in your first comment. Completely makes sense given the context of your current setup. In my case, I do not have an amp yet, but am looking to get an Accuphase E-5000. Heard Sonus Faber Olympica Nova V with Accuphase and was impressed. In any case, I am looking for a lightly used new generation Amati or Serafino (would not want to full price for anew one). Depending on what I find, it sounds like I might be satisfied with either of them. I might look to add a sub or two down the line. Only question that remains: Will Accuphase E-5000 good enough to drive either of them.

With 320W/4ohms of class AB power you’d certainly have enough for the Serafinos with room to spare. Most of what I’ve seen on the Amatis is that you’d not have much if any headroom at that level. Many folks I spoke with on my journey suggested north of 500w to make the Amatis happy. I heard them with 1.25kw amps and wasn’t impressed, fwiw. My measly 200w/4 Goldmund leaves me wanting for nothing on the Serafinos, but I also have the subs there. 

Good luck, and let us know where you end up!

Thank again. Will let you know what I will end up buying. In any case, if anyone else have direct experience with Amatis and Accuphase, would appreciate if you can share your experience.

I power my Amati with an Audio Research Ref 160 in triode mode... 70wpc... plenty of power... can blast my large room way louder than I would ever want to listen to them without compression or detriment. These are tube amps... you would not get the same effect with solid state... but they do not require a monstrous amp. 

@ghdprentice thank you for your inputs. Good to know that these are not as demanding. This also means that I could potentially look for an Accuphase E800 class A with 100 watts @4ohms.

Wanted to provide an update on my system build. First of all thank you everyone for your invaluable inputs. I finally placed an order for the following:

- SF Homage Amati G5 - Like new low hours for a great deal.

- Accuphase C2300 with DAC 60 and AD 60 - new

- Accuphase P4600 - used

Total cost for the speakers and components came to less than the list price of new SF Amati G5. Everything should arrive in a couple of weeks time. 
Now I need to get speaker cables and interconnects that match this system. I do not want to spend more than $500 on cables here.
 

question for the group here - Thinking of getting Worlds Best Cable (WBC) - Ultimate 9AWG and XRL cable for pre to power. Any feedback on these cables? Anything else that is know to be better than these for the price point?

Thanks.

If you're going to spend that initially on speaker cables, I recommend DHLabs. 

Also, in a year or two when everything is final and broken in, consider something better. I am using Transparent Ultra Gen 6 on mine. If the tonal balance is perfect and all your components complementary this is a great speaker cable. Speaker cable typically the most important, then the power cord to the amp, and then interconnects and power cords to everything else. But I generally wait a year or so to get into those... you want to know your system inside and out. 

Thank you @ghdprentice . I will look into DHLab.

@rock112 

How are the Amatis sounding?

I have been considering some SF speakers and just read through your thread.

@dhite71 i am loving these speakers and they are everything I had hoped for - I do not see myself wanting anything more. I do not have a lot of experience with hug-end audio, but I have auditioned several speakers at the dealers and  was at Axpona this weekend and came away satisfied that I made the right choice with these speakers. Not sure if this is my confirmation bias, but there were only a few systems that I thought sounded better and they were aspirational in price for most part. Granted these are not controlled tests and in vastly different rooms and equipments. 

Amati G5 to me has detailed top end with excellent sound stage. It has enough  bass extension and slam for my room that I do not feel I need a sub. Although, I might add a sub down the line to smooth out any room modes.

In addition to driving them with Accuphase pre/ power, I recently added a Volumio Rivo Plus streamer. This really made a big difference- imaging was more defined and soundstage more expansive. This just goes to show that they really shine with quality equipment and front end.

Cool, congratulations. Let’s see photos of your system! Easy to add photos under virtual systems. 

@rock112 

Glad they are working out so well!  Having speakers you truly love as the hub of your system makes this journey so much more enjoyable.  As you experienced with the upgraded streamer the possibilities for improvements are endless and awaiting for whenever your budget and desire takes you there.  Not sure when but at some point I will try some Sonus Faber speakers.  I have been with Wilson Audio for about 7 years and love them but really want to see what something like your Amatis could offer in comparison.

@ghdprentice here is a pic of my system. Hope this works.

if this is too small, you can see the picture in my system profile:

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/12016

did you mean to post the thumbnail? (sorry)

can you change the width?

The Tradition and the Serafino are speakers with sensitivities at 89.5dB@2.83V/1m and 89.6dB@2.83V/1m IEC standard.

Meaning they’re not voltage hungry devices but on the other hand they both have phase angle relationships with the impedance that lead to them being current hungry. So they may not demand a lot of voltage but they’re current hungry speakers(both). 

So long story short, your amp needs to be a high current one and luckily your amp peak current hovers around 40A and average current RMS is 20A so you’re set on the amp side.

You say, you’re a fan of Sonus Faber’s tonal colouration but haven’t demoed them? 

@rock112 

Outstanding.  If the room sounds as good as it looks it will be audio nirvana.  Enjoy the music! 

@rick_n thanks. And yes, it does sound good(at least to me). 
@kofibaffour  thank you for your inputs and glad to know that I have the right amp. As for the Sonus Faber sound, I have demoed them before (Olympics novas, Maxima Amati’s, and their higher end models). Just that I did not have an opportunity to demo the Amati G5 before purchasing them. However, now that I have them, no regrets at all.

@rock112 ah seems I misunderstood then. Enjoy your media on them👍🏾

Nice. Beautiful aren’t they? Not only do they sound great... they are simply gorgeous.

I have a friend that set up a system in a room very much like yours. We worked on room treatments and positioning for about a year (obviously very part time). The sound of the initial set up was absolutely (like yours), completely and totally in a different league when done. There is lots of potential there.

@ghdprentice yes, they are a looker for sure and just elevates the space. I know I can use some room treatment in my room. I will look to add corner base traps and ceiling treatment at some point. Right now I have already spent quite a bit, so will need to ease up on it or else will get in trouble with my significant other -:).

Anyways, I am looking to experiment with setup and positioning to see how to improve the sound without breaking the bank. Any pointers on where to start would be appreciated - is 4feet from back wall plenty or will they benefit from more or less? What would you recommend for toe in?

For most of the time we used couch cushions, pillows, and heavy blankets to simulate room treatments. It was pretty effective and free. Then as time went on he replaced them with ASC bass traps... found some used ones and panels. 

This will not look good. But just try it. Pile up couch cushions directly behind the speakers and add heavy blankets on the floor in front of the speakers. If you can also have some pillows at side wall reflections (just at ear level). If you can cover all the windows behind with heavy something... should make a big difference. 

Make sure your wife doesn’t see it. Put it away before she gets home... just the sight will drive most women crazy. 

But this kind of stuff should give you a little taste of what treatment can do. Good looking ones can be had later. 

@ghdprentice thanks again, for your input. I will try experimenting with some cushions. But I have limited opportunity to do it. I was looking at some used ASC tube traps as well as a possible solution down the line. They do seems to work well based on what I have read.

@rock112  the toe-in appears good in your picture;  I think the optimal position strategy varies by manufacturer but I would think it would be similar...not sure about that;  Regardless, with Wilsons they toe-in quite a bit.  They have mostly flat sides and say that you should just see the inside of the speaker when seated.  Mine are on the pucks on hardwoods as well and I can carefully make adjustments without the spikes coming off the puck so I would think you can do the same;  My method is always to ensure the voices really pop from the center....be sure you use a recording where the voice is in the center;  Patricia Barber Blackbird is a good one and at about 1 min or so into the song it really gets going and the music covers the entire soundstage and even extend outside of the speakers position

@dhite71 great tip on the song. I will try this out. Thanks again.