Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires


Mind you, you can have all of these views and be just fine in ASR. We have plenty of subjectivists that way. The issue comes up is when you take on the membership and try to tell them how it is done. Naturally you get strong pushback. But that is something you are bringing onto yourself.

I suspect the primary issue many have with ASR is the condescending tone adopted by many of its senior members.

It’s quite apparent many of them are merely there to be in an echo chamber, rather than engage in any real debate. Perhaps the biggest irony is some of ASR’s vehement disciples fail to understand the basic principles of its orthodoxy, such as the ability to read graphs, or, like the author of this thread, fail to understand how the Klippel works.

Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget. And I say that as someone who places high value on quantifiable performance. 

So he is an electrical engineer with a degree and is a truth-teller based on science and engineering principles and never speaks sweet lies. They are  paid trolls aka influencers come here to mislead viewers with their pseudo science nonsense and brag about their certificate degrees from community colleges. 

Let’s be real, many, if not most members of ASR are there for self-validation—to support the notion that they can build a true high-end system on a very modest budget.

 

Some on audiogon as myself think the same... Some others not be it on audiogon or ASR ...

Anybody studying basic acoustics, adressing resonance/vibrations and adressing the electrical noise level of the house/room can reach true audiophile S.Q. experience at relatively low cost...

I dont need ASR to do that. Anyway what will they think of my homemade resonators and acoustics devices , shungite+copper plate and my modifications of speakers with cheap straws and my use of homemade acoustic materials and my use of Schumann generators etc... ? I can listen them laughing at me as  also many here ...😊

I am ferociously creative independent and know very well why Acoustics matter over anything else...

Glad to see Amir-ASR here. Takes some guts given how he gets bashed around in here. I like ASR and think there’s valuable info there. In addition to reviews, Amir’s general write ups on digital audio are very good. HDMI was eye opening. Thanks, Amir.

Amir's (sometimes) tone is what gets him bashed. Measurements are useful information, and when Amir delivers measurements or other explanation in a neutral tone, it's all fine.

But sometimes Amir's tone, which is echoed by a core of members at ASR, is triggering.  My personal opinion is that someone that "has the podium" like Amir should work to set a better example of respect and civility than he does. Doesn't really matter how stupid the posts he responds to seem to be. 

The ASR process has its place. But there are fanatics there like everywhere else and they don't recognize their own biases. 

 

Fellas, send the Madrona Digital Revel dealer (who sits around with 1 speaker klippeling away in his garage...whoop di doo) back to his forum and get this type of information directly from the horses’ mouth. You would think he oughta be busy selling Revels, accepting donations from the herd on his forum, etc, staying in his lane. But here he is...trying to do more "outreach" n all (the deep pocket donors exist here, i suppose). Hmmm, maybe, his herd is thinning a bit, when it realizes that the crap he recommends sounds indeed like crap.

Nevertheless, the fanatical side of his herd will eventually settle on some active that looks like a flat line and sounds like a turd.

It’s about what "errors" a designer chooses to live with or not, i.e., what he feels is saleable to a larger number of ears....when these guys oughta run a business (it’s not like they’re incapable of cooking a flat line for a fanatical herd).