This is whole reason research is difficult in the DAC world. From what I an learning, the best values are from the no-name companies you (and I) might have concerns about. The reason I am less concerned about that in the case of a DAC is that I see it as the shortest life cycle piece I will own. Improvements are accelerating at a fast pace so value counts.
Your argument on tubes is no doubt on point. Accuracy is sacrificed when a tube is introduced. But for my ears Musicality is enhanced with a tube in the right place. All my other gear is S.S. so this is my only spot to add one.
@adam8179 My experience is limited but I have a little experience with the MHDT DACs. I have the Pagoda (non-balanced) and I really like it but I prefer my Chord Qutest. The Qutest has better bass and treble extension, and better detail. The Pagoda definitely is more of an analog and less fatiguing sound, but in my opinion, it's not as true to the source as the Qutest. My good friend got an Orchid on my recommendation and I'm afraid to say, neither of us liked it very much. It was much more rolled off than the Pagoda in bass and treble and it overemphasized certain frequencies to a strange degree. For example, any recording with tape hiss was almost unlistenable because of how the DAC emphasized it. We thought it was defective but he returned it and the folks at LTA said it was working perfectly. If you decide to go MHDT, I would go for the Pagoda, especially if your system is a bit on the analytical side. If you already have some warmth, I might suggest staying away from tube DACs
Did you or your friend use the factory supplied tube(s) or change them? What you mention can occur if sub-standard tubes are used.
Several friends with both MHDT Orchids and Pagoda, all good luck so far past 3-5 years. Mine is dead quiet. Both DACs sound different and better with really good tubes. With really good interconnects and for the DIY'ers, adding top-shelf coupling caps open them up even more but still retain the R-2R Ladder non-oversampling (NOS) analog type of sound.
If you are ok with non r2r dacs I would add Okto Dac 8 Stereo to the list. Price around $1.3k depending on options. This is only based on reviews but it seems to be a very well made dac that also measures better than almost any other.
Thanks for the additional suggested DACs. In August 2019 Our club held a DAC It Out event which included the Cutest and it came in #3 in the blind test. Ahead was the Schiit Yggy ,the Jolida DAC ($750) and the new Line Magnetic. All tube models. See AZAVCLUB.com Events for the complete writeup.
I have come to believe that the associated test gear was so harsh that the tube DACs had an advantage.
4 people from Chord showed up and watched the process proclaiming they were satisfied with process.
At of today I am 3 days away from the end of my trial period for the Audio Mirror Tubadour I recently acquired,
As I compare it to the Denafrips Ares I had the sound seems more involving without any ear burn I experienced with the Ares. I am not saying the $750 Ares is a dog, far from it. I wish I had started with the Pontus at $1,750.
The Audio Mirror base model I have @ $1,500 is being discontinued in favor of the more upgraded SE model @ $2,500. If I keep the base model I will have it upgraded. BTW Vlad, the owner, is a pleasure to work with and quite generous as well. He is getting busy though and as a one man show with a full time job I can foresee some wait possible wait times. Worth it in my mind.
I have a Moon 280D with MiND 2. I am very pleased with the DAC.
My digital journey started with a Node 2i and then I used the DAC 1 Module in my McIntosh Preamp.
My listening habits are eclectic - I may listen to Bob Marley and then put on Metallica follow-up with Paul Simon, Black Sabbath and Peter Gabriel. Or I may just play Spyro Gyro and chill.
The Moon has exceeded my expectations in everyway including the ease of use of the MiND 2. So impressed with the Moon DAC I will consider other Moon components if I decide to upgrade my system.
MHDT Orchid +1. Have had mine for a couple of years. Dead quiet and sounds great with my Luxman / Harbeth system. Jazz, piano, acoustic guitar, etc. are my musical tastes. Full, organic, comfortable to listen to. No problems or regrets whatsoever.
I'm not familiar with any of those DACs, but can confidently recommend the Chord Qutest and Hugo 2, both within your price range. Both can be used either in situ or portably. They are compact and sound terrific.
I have the
Audio Mirror Tubadour 3, with Cary Audio SL-80 F1 Signature (upgraded caps and orange fuses), Manley Chinook phone pre-amp, VPI Classic 3 TT, Fritz Rev 7 BE speakers (87db) with morrow cables and Furtech power cables. I am VERY picky about my definition of musicality. And my definition has to be approved by my wife who has gone to MANY more live concerts (rock, Jazz and Clasical) than I have. To both of us, Musicality is sitting back 10-15 rows from center stage and hearing the liveliness of the moment through the technology platforms (mike, speakers, amps, etc.). While I enjoy my Vinyl, I have been listening more to CD and Tidal because of the musicality of the Audio Mirror. I demoed MHT - not the same signature musically for me in my system. Hope this helps and good luck on your journey - as has been said before, it is a constant state of improvements relative to your unique system and each component does affect the overall musicality to your ears!
correction, I have the
Audio Mirror Tubadour 3 SE @ $2,500 and did add the orange fuse - although did not notice that much overall improvement in sound quality.
Hey I'm wondering if anyone has experience with DACs from Border Patrol? The name is sketchy I know but I have a friend who has one and swears by it. I know it's R2R but not sure if there are tube variants.
Yesterday we tried some a/b comparisons between your dac Audio Mirror Tubadour and 2005 vintage dCs CD player P8i model. $14k new. Another friend brought the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. $5k new. As you may know they both are software based DACs. Although volume matching was not perfect I found I preferred yours to the PS Audio model.The owner of the PS model felt his had some strengths over the AM. The openness and presenceof the AM was in my mind the big difference. The dCs comparison was a bit harder to judge. The owner liked his dCs better. I found it a very closecomparison and could not make a definite judgement. With his we were able to volume match more closely. Our Arizona Audio/Video Club has a Van Alstine Comparator unit which I may use next time if another DAC comparison is to be done.
a) yes frank van alstine's abx comparator is quite a truth teller... excellent piece that serves its purpose spot on... like all of what frank makes
b) in my listening tests in my own system, the audio mirror, mhdt and even denafrips dacs sounded more natural, open and dimensional than the border patrol (not that the bp is not good, the others were somewhat better to my ears)
c) point b above being said, the differences are quite subtle and only upon direct comparison can one discern and be confident about the difference - that is another benefit of the ava abx unit - you can a/b knowing what's what, then you also a/b without knowing test yourself if you can reliably and consistent hear what you think you hear among two items
regarding AM Tubadour break-in. 30 days to start really smoothing out and three months for those big duelund caps to become liquid sounding. an exercise in patience.
Retired electrical engineers and music lovers designed and built the Taiwanese COS Engineering group of DACs, the H1, D1 and D2v. I have heard the H1 and own the D2v ($5000 list price), This is a big step up from my trusty, tubed EAR Acute CD player. It has a 1 second buffer delay that works (compared to the non-delay switch useful for video playback syncing). The H1 ($2500 list price) has dual headphone jacks. It is a very open sound with deep, tight bass. My D2v is a warmer sound while ultra detailed. I have not heard the other DACs mentioned. I have heard very expensive Meridian and Meitner, ARC and some other DACs and prefer the COS at the price. Also, COS Dacs don't respond to footers, they are very well designed and constructed boxes. I tried various Stillpoints and SR Mig SXs as well as lesser footers (soft, hard, etc).
I have owned quite a few of the dacs on your list. This is my opinion in my system in my room. I’m not knocking any of them.Denafrips - very nice. Resolving but a bit too much for my tastes. MDHT Pagoda - relaxed and warm with a nice tube sound, It may have been a keeper but I was looking for something with a little more sparkle on the top end. Maybe it’s because my entire system is tubes. It may sound better with SS. But still very nice especially for the price. Also, my circuit board went kaput and the owner of MHDT sent me a new one free of charge. Lampizator - I’m sorry, I can’t remember which model. It was expensive and it really bummed me out because I wanted to like it so much and it was horrible in my system. It was almost like I had it hooked up incorrectly but I took it over to my friends house and it was really nice. I sent it back and got a refund on their trial period. It’s worth a listen. Audio Note 3.1x balanced. Pricey, but there is none better IMO. You will no longer be looking for another dac. The cons are: price, it took me 6 months to get it and it will only play red book, no hi-res files. But it does such a good job with these you won’t need it play hi-res. However, I have 6GB of hi-res and DSD files so I regretfully sold it. I now have a Linn Akurate DSM and am really happy with it. I see a few folks have mentioned Moon/SimAudio. I had the 380, I think and was pleasantly surprised but how good it sounded. My 2 cents.
Consider the Musician Pegasus R2R dac. I just hooked mine up in my exercise room system today and even straight out of the box, it sounds superb. Very clean, clear, dimensional with great presence and impact. All for 1100 bucks.
...What I have noticed is under $5000 you get what you pay for...
paulcreed
...$5000 will get started in the do all r2r dac's...
Can you guys, or others, please elaborate on what one should expect to get at the $5000 level for a r2r DAC? Is it the quality and size of power supply, better parts in general, better shielding, and or what? Do one of these contribute more to high quality sound than the others?
The more DAC threads I read, the more confused I get.
I am running an old Theta Probasic III and felt it was superior to a variety of non r2r DACS that I tried in my system. So, I am, rightly or wrongly, convinced that for me, r2r is the way to go.
I am at the point in my life that I would be willing to spend bigger bucks for what would be an endgame DAC for me. I am not the sort of person who chases the latest and greatest but would prefer to spend more on a modern DAC that should stand the test of time as I expect for me.
@chorus. You've had more chance for direct comparison than most of us get, so you're fortunate to have an active local club. The challenge for me when I enjoyed the same was that in "shootout" conditions, you're lucky to have more than a few minutes in the sweet spot, let alone for each DAC. Your ears are perked up, the analytical side of your brain on high alert. Advantage to the overly detailed, etched and analytical gear. OTOH, at home with extended listening sessions, the other side of your brain gets its due...musicality has its chance to shine. It's no wonder we share tales of amazing store demoes followed by disappointment after purchase. It's hard!
FWIW, I recently purchased and broke-in a Pontus II which I upgraded to from a Schitt Gungnir Multibit. My narrowed down list included much overlap with yours, along with the Chord Qutest. I've heard Soekris, MHDT dacs but not side by side, so I can't draw much in specific comparison. What I can tell you is that the Denafrips Pontus II does deliver the magic with great recordings; the goosebumps and the "teleportation - you are there -- they are here". I hear tons of detail, but that pales in comparison to the natural timbre, rhythmic drive, natural untangling of complex passages and pure beauty of the human voice. These impressions are on this system: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/133 My decision came down to perceived value, build quality and likely value retention. Denafrips IMHO, is on track to survive in the long run. Unfortunately, many in the industry aren't around in 5 years when you may need support. So far, I'm feeling great about choosing the Pontus. Cheers, Spencer
@chorus, I am considering 2 DACs, one on your list the
Audio Mirror SE
and one not seen mentioned on this thread, the Mojo Audio Mystique V3. There are excellent reviews on both DACs but would like to hear from anyone who has done a direct comparison. Not able to audition either of these, I have settled for a lot of reading and the
Mojo has upgraded the V3 to the Evo and reports claim performance rivaling $10K DACs ! The V3 is available for about $3500, the Evo is beyond my budget.
@dsper, I used to belong to a small local get-together and was known to have the best redbook performance from my ancient Wadia 15, beating some modern and expensive units. The Wadia and Theta were overbuilt tanks and top of their game. The Theta Gen. V is particularly good.
So the strongest were Lampizator Amber 3 and Audio note 2.1 signature. Lampizator has very good details, drums were superb, but vocals in my system did not had "love" - flow like AN 2.1x which ticked all these fields. By my surprise AN 1.2x was better than MHDT Pagoda (with stock tube) and it was nothing bad and nothing special, Pagoda was better than Chord Qutest (chord is absolutely too much hyped, when i heard it i do not understand for what people are giving very good reviews to them...)
When i got Sootto RCA (single wire working like coaxial) cable from innuos streamer to my AN 2.1x signature now the things became wonderfull and total it was cheaper than to get new Amber 3 dac. Chord mojo is a joke, my fiio E17 alpen i liked more that mojo with Meze 99c or just playing from TV.
I was really sceptical regarding Audio Note dac but now i would always test it with other dacs, of course if you have possibility (dealer) to do it. Also please give chance to Lampizator (i would like to test Lampizator Baltic) as they give 6 days trial and you loose nothing, really great dac!
not to say that other dacs and other gear from relative newcomers aren’t also excellent -- but in general, when dealing with longstanding still-productive high end makers like audio note, conrad johnson, audio research, pass and so on... they have been making excellent, exquisite sounding gear for so long... it is hard to do wrong to trust their ability to deliver (although obviously their ’value equation’ may not be the best anymore with their fairly high prices, you most certainly get what you pay for...)
i always like to say, when some companies have been out there for 30-40-50 years at the top of the game, always respected, always recommended, with happy, discerning customers for several generations now, ’they have not been stealing money from deaf people all these years...." 😁😁😁
-- side note -- mhdt dacs sound much better with a tube upgrade from the stock ones shipped with new units ... even jian @mhdt says so ...
Lots of excellent DACs mentioned, but if you’re looking for the “magic” in music, go with the highest level Audio Note UK DAC (not AN Kit) you can afford. Most of these other DAC manufacturers didn’t even exist when Audio Note UK started making NOS DACs. While you’re looking for the right Audio Note UK DAC, get a Denafrips Ares II DAC for $800. Used ones sell like hot cakes (3-year Transferable warranty!); you’ll get most of your money back when you sell it, after getting your Audio Note UK DAC, or keep it as a backup or for a second system.
I had a Pontus II in my system for about six months and it obviously blows away the DAC in the Node 2i that I use as a streamer now only. I don’t post much but I do research quite a bit in these forums. The responses about MDHT Orchid were always positive so I bought a second-hand one with the WE tube that was modified by a member here. Well I packed up the Pontus II sold after listening to the Orchid. I recently purchased the tube adapter so I could roll 6DJ8’s in it and it really takes it to another level. In my system the Orchid beat out the Pontus II/NOS head to head handedly. I was never going to use the other modes in the Pontus II and I liked what I read about R2R/NOS DAC’s.
Cetla416 - what a great story. Now what would happen if you upgraded the fuse and power cord on the Orchid? You could probably be happy with the DAC for a long time.
[@cetla416] I had a Pontus II in my system for about six months and it obviously blows away the DAC in the Node 2i that I use as a streamer now only. I don’t post much but I do research quite a bit in these forums. The responses about MDHT Orchid were always positive so I bought a second-hand one with the WE tube that was modified by a member here. Well I packed up the Pontus II sold after listening to the Orchid. I recently purchased the tube adapter so I could roll 6DJ8’s in it and it really takes it to another level. In my system the Orchid beat out the Pontus II/NOS head to head handedly. I was never going to use the other modes in the Pontus II and I liked what I read about R2R/NOS DAC’s.
Nice! Its a neat DAC R2R ladder design in its own right. Along with trying other GE 5-star triple mica tubes, Tesla, WE369A tubes, just for grins I upgraded the (very good) stock caps to some silver-gold-oil Mundorts. Both were small incremental improvements. +really a good OCC digi coax input and OCC output interconnects, the MHDT Orchid holds its own with higher $ DACS.
It's and R2R DAC that has the clarity of a chip based design, massive soundstage, 3D Layering, and a very accurate timbre. Bass has weight, density, agility, and is very transparent to the source.
You might want to throw that on your list.
Goes up another level if you use a good powercable and aftermarket fuse.
All this statement speaks to is what this poster hasn't heard@jjss49
This is so true; been there, done that myself.
And is why I question the logic of buying inexpensive DACS because the technology is changing so rapidly.
My Theta DS ProBasic III is a very good DAC and it is what, 20 plus years old? I also bought a new Soekris single ended. Different strokes, depending on your musical tastes and the rest of your gear.
I listen to new equipment regularly at a couple of hi end stores in the Indy area.
Just because it is the latest technology does not mean that it is the best sounding.
This seems like a very educated list. What did you end up buying and do you still have it? I have a Pagoda single ended with Ericcson tube which has a lovely warmth, good soundstage and separation. Sometimes I feel like I'm missing some sparkle on the top end, like the resolution is a limiting factor. I'm really considering trying a Pontus II.
My take is that the Pontus easily beats the Lampi with an easier flow to the music, where the Lampi seemed forced at times. The tone and timbre of the Pontus is more natural and richer.
The Pontus and the Pagoda are closer in terms of tone and engagement. Where the Pontus pulls ahead for me is in bass definition and inner detail. And the Pontus only has about 30 hours of playing time so far.
So the Denafrips Pontus II wins the day for me. I’m wishing now I had went straight to the Venus II, that may happen sooner than later.
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