After several calls to David Berman at Soliloquy, without a response. I will put it to the Audiogoner's . Will I need to change the tweeter or rebuild the crossover to "brighten up" the highs in this speaker....Or should I just trade them off and start over ????. I kind of like the speakers if I could get them to sound a little better. Maybe that is why they are no longer in the speaker business...I think that changing the tweeter would be the easiest but I will be open-minded.....Thanks
Actually, I made a mistake in the initial analysis of the crossover. While thinking it was a 2nd order, after further review, it turned out to be a classic 3rd order, with 3 resistors. Mea culpa, mea culpa...
As far as tweaking, unless a redesign was in order, I'd probably keep things more or less the same, apart from trying the 2 Ohm, as Distortion is doing. If this wakes things up to the desired degree, but the sound seems harsh, but not overly forward, I would opt for replacing the three resistors with those from North Creek. Better resistors than the simple sand cast units in 99.9% of commercial speakers really get rid of the grain and harshness.
I thought I would post a follow up to my experiments with the crossover here so it could be archived for the future.
First off, thanks so much to Trelja. I really learned a lot from him. After analyzing my Xover circuit he helped me find just the right tweak to achieve the desired results. He is truly a gentleman and a great resource to the A'gon community.
After trying several jumps in the Xover with results each time. I finally decided to jump the 4ohm resistor with a quality 2ohm. This has added just the right amount of air. Its not permanent and to be honest, with more and more time on them (about 750 hours now), it may be that the stock configuration may be the most suitable.
Autospec, I hope you got your 6.2s sounding to your liking.
Trelja, Good morning. Yes, I can email you a picture. It may be Friday before I get a chance to fiddle again. Tonight I must rack and bottle at least 75 bottles of Bordeaux. Can you say, sore back! ...and then I promised a friend, my Wife and I would have Sushi with Him and his new girlfriend. I'll shoot you a quick note through the A'gon system tonight. If you reply then I'll attach the pic and reply directly to you. Would you prefer a certain resolution?
The Coil on the Tweeter network is absolutely parallel. It attaches to one of the three positive leads coming from the large Cap and is wired directly to the negative post from the Amp, which in turn has a jumper soldered directly to the negative post from the Tweeter.
There is one Cap (identically sized to the Tweeter Cap FWIW), a somewhat larger gauge and winding Air Coil, and one 4 ohm Ceramic Resistor on the Midwoofer Board. The Coil is absolutely in series. My memory is saying, that the Midwoofer Cap and Resistor were in series on the negative leg with the Coil in series on the positive leg. Clearly my memory failed me badly last time, so I need to reaffirm this. I'll draw this circuit next time too.
Autospec, I tried jumping all the Resistors. The 15ohm Resistor added alot of treble, too much for me. The 6.2 was a little hot as well. The 4ohm seemed best. Also, jumping only the small Cap had a profound effect on "sparkle" without allowing the lower treble ranges to come to far forward. I would give that a try too.
Distortion, from two of the above posts, I was also a bit intrigued by your crossover. Is there any possibility of providing a picture?
It is possible that the coil is in parallel, which is what one of your descriptions implied. In that case, my next question is to describe the network on the woofer. Does the capacitor there run in parallel with the woofer? While I wouldn't exactly be surprised, as I had heard the speaker they produced which was geared to 2A3 amplification (SMsomethingorother?) used a series crossover, it is rare - the Frieds we produce which ALL use series crossovers.
Yes, both L Pads and Zobel require a resitor in parallel. The L Pad consists of one resistor in series with the tweeter, along with one, downstream, in parallel. The Zobel consists of a capacitor and resistor in parallel.
That is a "cool" web-site ....How in the world did you find it ? I have put it in my favorites. I have a old rheostat that is 0-20 ohms that I'm goint put in the crossover and listen to it at different setting untel I find where they sound the best . I will then measure it and put a resistor the same value....I'm still going to try the Ribbon tweeter....I have made all the measurements and they are almost the same.....The G2-si ribbon is 110 mm and the opening on the speaker cabinet is 112 mm....
Question #1. Dont both L-Pads or Zobel networks require a resistor to be wired in parallel?
All the resistors in this crossover are in series. Unless you count the first one. The first component, a 6.2ohm resistor, is wired to a large Cap which has three leads one of which goes to the Coil, which is parallel. Another lead goes to a smaller Cap which feeds the tweeter positive, therefore making this a 3rd order high pass. But wait theres more, a third lead from the aforementioned large Cap also feeds a 15ohm resistor, which also feeds the tweeter positive, making this a 2nd order and a 3rd order. My head hurts! ...or is this some kind of series matching network? [Q. 1(a)]
So question #2. Since the Coil is parallel and a resistor feeds it via a Cap. Would that resistor be parallel or equivalent to parallel?
...or am I just all wrong? If so, please set me free!
Reverse engineering the circuit, it appears we have a 2nd order Xover, an L-Pad, and a Zobel all wrapped into one... and somewhat mixed about but I suppose the specific order isnt all that important.
Yes, it sure is fun to play with this stuff! After a while, just from doodling, you get the feel of how changes effect the sound, and how this so - called black art, to be even viewed only by the chosen ones, is really something we should be dabbling in.
Maybe I am getting confused via my own stupidity, but it looked to me that the Zobel was the small capacitor with the 4 ohm resistor. If I was able to see it, it would make more sense for me.
Again, I wouldn't run a Zobel on the tweeter, but that's just me (the shamans can now appear to burn me at the stake). It sounds like you are jumping the 4 ohm resistor and seem happy? If the way I am seeing the crossover is correct, and the small cap is in series with this resistor, try jumping the capacitor as well to bypass the Zobel entirely. This may be all that is needed.
Please let us know what you think after a few days. Is this the added sparkle you were looking for, without irritation? If not, we can throw a quick design together that would lower the parts quantity while raising the parts quality. As you said, FUN!
Trelja, what a fun experiment. I jumped the 15ohm and just as you surmised, that was too much. I tried jumping the 6.2ohm and that was a bit too much as well. Jumping only the 4 ohm is noticeable but not too much. I have left the jumpers in place and sewn up the patient. I'll let it be for a few sessions.
The small Cap is combined with the 15 ohm Resistor at the Inductor. So any attempt to bypass it (Small Cap) mandates a bypass of the 15 ohm Resistor as well. Since they are combined at the coil and then rejoined at the positive tweeter terminal. Does this sound like a Zobel?
Trelja, thanks so much for all your help. This may have been the most productive and informative thread I have participated in to date! ...and fun too!
First try jumping both the smaller cap and the 4 ohm resistor also in series with the tweeter. This is a Zobel network, meant to flatten the impedance rise of the tweeter's voice coil as the frequency increases. Listen a while, then see what you think. I am not the biggest Zobel fan in the world, but if I did use one, it would be on the woofer, not tweeter.
Remove the jumper.
Next jump the 15 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter. This should definitely bring things forward, though it may not be good sound. Just spend a little time listening.
Finally, again jump the Zobel, while also still bypassing the 15 ohm tweeter. See what you think of this.
If things are progressing in the direction you feel is positive, you are on the right track. If things are too upfront, and I expect them to be, try the simple route of 6 and 10 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter only. You don't need to solder it in, just use another jumper.
Does it sound better than where you started? That is the ultimate question. If not, remove the jumpers and leave things alone. Otherwise, wire in the revised, simpler circuit.
Trelja, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. I inspected the crossover for the tweeter with greater scrutiny. My memory is cruel to me indeed. In fact, there are six components on the tweeter board with a rather confounding wiring pattern.
There are three rectangular resistors. All have values printed on top. The large black and yellow Cap I previously mentioned, a much smaller black and yellow Cap(?) 1/4" in diameter and 1.5" long, and an air core inductor. The Caps and Inductor do not have values (Microfarad and miliohms, Right?) I cant seem to locate the Ohm symbol so I will write ohm in its stead.
A 10w6.2ohmJ resistor is feed Positive in (from amp) then to the large Cap then to the coil which then splits and goes to the Negative tweeter terminal and the Negative Amplifier in. This seems odd to me. But I digress, my knowledge in this area is extremely limited.
The large Cap has two other leads. One leads to another resistor (10w15ohmJ) which then goes to the Positive tweeter terminal..
The other feeds the smaller Cap then another resistor (10w4ohmJ) and the positive tweeter terminal as well.
So which resistor should I jump? ....or should I just go watch some preseason Football and shut my pie hole?
Autospec, thanks so much letting me use your thread =)
I have a pair of 6.5s. I too thought that they were not lively enough in the treble. I was at the time, able to get a hold of David and he suggested more playing time and Analysis Plus cables. He was right. They now sound wonderful. I could not be happier. That's just my experience. It is up to you what you do next. Good luck.
Tvad: I am being facetious, but when you enjoy music as I do it doesn't seem right to listen to something that doesn't sound good.....I would leave it playing when I wasn't home but my cats don't like bad music ether and all my gear is tube so the heat is a issue....Actualy I have about 15-20 tube amps that I change around from time to time . There is the possibilty that I will never care for the sound of these speakers no matter what....Thanks for your view...
Distortion....I never could get David on the phone after several calls.....This is one of the reasons I'm losing my fondness for these speakers. I think in a few minutes he could tell me something that may otherwise take forever to learn....But he has no interest in these speakers anymore, so doesn't want to waste any more time with them, I would guess...........
I'm thinking that listening to a poor sounding pair of speakers for six or seven months is a bad idea....I am trying to improve the sound in the near future.... My amplifiers will need a new set of out-put tubes before these speakers start to sound good....That's if I'm lucky....I would probably be better off to sell these and get something else, but I live in a part of the country where the closest Hi-Fi store is about 350 miles away...It is a little hard to get in my car and drive over for a audition....So what I purchase has to be able to be shipped by UPS etc. Purchased over the phone or inter-net
I strongly Boa's recommendation. Allow the speakers enough time. As a 6.2 owner, I can assure you there will be more treble after 500 hours. Give 'em some volume too.
I dont believe the Aurum is a drop in fit. Its spec sheet shows a 110mm overall diameter. The counter sunk opening in my pair of 6.2's is only 103mm or 4 5/16 inchs.
BOA2 is correct..your speakers aren't broken in yet. I would hold off judgement till maybe 800 to 1000 hrs. Also whats the ohm load on those ribbons? Your going to need several different values of resistors to find the correct volume needed between your midrange drivers and the tweeter..not an easy task. You could end up with severe ear bleeds or less highs than you have now.:-)
I am not sure about the time on them, maybe 2-3 hundred hours...
Your speakers are not yet broken in, your speakers are not yet broken in, your speakers are not yet broken in. Oh yeah, and another thing: your speakers are not yet broken in. check the manual...3-500 hours.
I think that changing the tweeter would be the easiest but I will be open-minded
You've been given suggestions about checking the crossovers, speaker placement, speaker cables, and allowing the speakers to break-in, and yet...
I think I'll try some ribbon tweeters , The Aurum Cantus ribbon tweeters are the same size and the same cross-over frequency.....They should just drop in. And since they are the same size I will be able to return them to stock when I sell them...
Distortion, you are lucky to have the crossover divided up onto two boards. It's very good design. I am pretty unfamiliar with the Soliloquy speakers, but I have liked the sound of those I have heard.
On the tweeter board, the inductor is obvious. The dime diamater 3/4" long component sounds like the capacitor, but you should really look at the writing on it and the other component. One will give the resistance value and power rating (say 12 Ohm and 5 or 10 watt) and the other will give the capacitance value and voltage (say 8 uF and 250V). In the end, the capacitor is probably encased in plastic, whereas the resistor is probably made of a harder substance such as a ceramic.
You want to simply use one of these jumpers with alligator clips on each end (probably available at any Radio Shack and a lot of Dollar Stores), and attach each end to the opposite resistor leads. This will bypass the resistor with the wire.
In a crossover, the resistor is used to attenuate the tweeter. The vast majority of tweeters are more sensitive than midrange/woofers (ie 92 db/2.83V tweeter and 89 db/2.83V midrange), and the resistor serves to balance things out.
For me, most high end speakers these days sound treble forward, and seem to need more resistance on the tweeter leg. It's a VERY personal thing, which also depends a lot of cabling (as has been wisely mentioned here) as well as the room one is in. With my tastes, in my bright room, I tend to pad down a tweeter too much - perhaps this is also how this speaker was designed. Again, it's a personal thing, but for Autospec, presuming he liked everything else the way things are, reducing the resistance on the tweeter should certainly bring the treble forward.
If one finds the high end wakes up via bypassing the tweeter, but things are too hot and some resistance is needed, I really like the resistors that NorthCreek Music sells. For about $3, they're superior to what just about any high end audio company uses.
I do have some Audio Research Cables for sale, but I have a lot of Audio Research speaker cables.....I really like it. My speakers have the soft dome tweeter . I would even be willing to try a ribbon tweeter if I had a good idea of a good one that was not too expensive . I like the resistor idea also and will look into that as soon as I get a minute...I really enjoy the wonderful input on this problem....I wish I could have talked to David Berman a little about this also...
Boa2 I agree with you on the positioning of the speakers. And also allowing them to breakin. Too many times I've seen people waste a boat load of money trying to make a speaker do something that it's not capable of. I would think the main goal of a cable.Is to get as much of the signal to the component as possible with minimal loss. It should'nt be thought as the quick fix.
I've rebuilt the crossovers in one pair of speakers I've owned. It made a huge difference for the better . At the same time I think back to what else I could have used the money for ..like another pair of speakers. Or maybe towards another component.
As far as the cable tone controls go. I see nothing wrong with testing the waters. But some ask for way too much of a speaker cable or a interconnect. For example ..I constantly see posting for cables to make the system warmer or fuller or more bass or better highs. No doubt they make a difference but there's a limit to what any cable will do for a system. Some times the problems upstream all along. The cable may just reveal a weakness upstream. Instead of fixing that problem people use cables to smooth it over or cover it up,the same with tubes.
And then other times it's just the speakers themselves. It may not be a good match with the rest of the system. So do you replace the whole system or replace the speakers? YMMV this is just my opinion.
Didn't Tannoy make an ad on tweeter.I am spacing on the manufacturers name but they make a G2 ribbon tweeter that I believbe can be added to top of speaker.Just Google "G2 tweeter" and it will come up. G'luck chazzbo
Trelja, I had the back off my 6.2s a few days ago. There are two crossover boards. One attached to the front inside of the box and another to the removable plate on the back of the speaker. The Crossover on the plate is marked "tweeter" it definitely has a sizable air coil and what appears to be a large resistor contained in a rectangular plastic box ...and if memory serves me correctly, there was what appeared to be a second large capacitor/resistor (dime diameter about 3/4 inch long). Retrospectively that seems odd.
Could you advise further from this simplistic description? I too am interested in getting a bit more sparkle from my 6.2s.
Too many times, I've found a change in cables to be the problem solver. And three times, this has happened with a pair of speakers that I was resigned to sell. Twice with speaker cables, and once with a pair of interconnects.
You will find a lot of exasperated owners of Soliloquy speakers during the break-in period. It all depends on how far you're willing to go to try and make it work. Personally, I think it's a shame to write off any component before I've allowed it to work to its potential. That could be via a change in cables, tubes, maybe even the orientation in the room. But hey, that's just me.
I once owned the 6.3s . All in all very nice speakers. The treble sometimes got a little hot.The speakers never sounded dull.But this may have been something else in the setup..who knows. Silver does have a positive effect on the Sols. Just stay away from silver clad copper hybrids. It makes the speakers sound a tad thin IMHO. I don't like using cables as tone controls ..so YMMV.
If something doesn't work for me. I just sell it and move on.
I have a pair of 5.3i's, and I agree with Boa2 that the right cabling makes the difference. Speaker cables: AP Silver ovals in bi-amped configuration. The highs are just fine.
Autospec, I see that you are selling those speaker cables. My suspicion is that a different pair of speaker cables and some more break-in time will be the ticket. You might even try a pair of Signal Cables. They're inexpensive, and worked well with those speakers. I've owned the 5.3's and the 6.2's, and neither had dull highs, except when paired with dulling cables. Also, if you're not sure about break-in time, read the comments here and on Audio Review about those speakers. Anything less than 300-500 hours, and they just don't sound good. Good luck, Howard
Just to see if it is worth it to mod the speaker, try using a simple wire with alligator clips on both ends to bypass the resistor that probably exists in series with the tweeter. It will take all of about one minute to accomplish this, most of which will be analyzing the crossover circuit itself.
If this adds at least as much sparkle as you are looking for, the path to happiness is easy. If you like it as is, remove the resistor. If things are too bright, try guesstimating the value the replacement resistor would be. As an example, if there is a 10 Ohm resistor in the circuit and bypassing it makes things screechy, try a 5 Ohm resistor. In the end, use a resistor at least as good as the OEM, and you will wind up with both more detail and less glare.
If going down this road works out, you will not affect the resale value whatsoever.
Surprise to hear the 6.2 to have poor treble,I own the 5.3 and the HF are just great and extended and the 6.2 is supposed to be more open.
I used the newer aluminium tweeters in them and did not like it one bit(along with a friend of mine that also owned the 5.3 and the 6.2).
Sounded too hard,the soft dome tweeters(I assume you have the same?)were more revealing but smoother and natural.
Also a lot of people may not know that at least for the 5.3 and maybe the 6.2 the phase is inverted for the tweeters to increase dispersion,I've changed mine back to have them in phase with the rest of the drivers and have the sonics more focus and highs extended.
could it be it?
You should email my friend he knows a lot about soliloquy speakers and the 6.2.
Autospec, How many hours do you have on the speakers? They sound like doo doo for the first 300-500 hours. Also, Distortion is right about Analysis Plus. We went to AP silver speaker cable, and it made a big difference. Finally, if you have the requisite number of hours on the speakers, try some jumpers or bi-wire. Those brass plates don't work too well.
I am using these next to some Pro-ac 2's and they don't have the life they should have....I don't think. I have two systems in my home , one having a Audio Research LS-25 and a VT-100 with a pair of Aerial 10-T's. The other system has a Audio Research LS-14 and a Classic 60 with the Pro-ac's . The second system also has the Soliloquy 6.2's which need some help....I have not got a response from David at Soliloquy
I have 6.2s and I agree they could use a bit more sparkle. Did David not say anything about swapping to the newer sputtered aluminum tweeter? I dont know if that would help but it could. You may even have these tweeters already?
I have been thinking of both a tweeter change and a high quality Xover. Not out of necessity though. Simply because I love to tweek =). I'll let you know if I decide on either and the results.
Without knowing your system I can only make a few general suggestions.
Another A'gon member suggested I use Analysis Plus cabling. I already was but, I can tell you these babies lost a lot of highs when I swapped the APs for transparent. I agree, try some AP cabling.
These things take forever to break in. The highs were very muted the first 250 hours or so. Have you allowed enough break in time? 500 hours plus.
The grills have a profound impact on the highs.
I love mine the mids are utterly seductive and the bass is tight and articulate.
I kind of like the speakers if I could get them to sound a little better.
I'm not quite sure how to repond to that. Kind of like this would be a pretty good meal if it didn't taste so bad.
I'm sure that modifying the crossover and/or replacing the drivers will change how they sound. Predicting the results will be tough. It should be cheap enough to play around with the crossovers so I would start there, but buying quality drivers to play around with might get expensive.
Bear in mind that whatever modifications you make will probably kill the resale value. It sounds like you have the inclanation so if you have the resources and skills it might be better to build your own from the ground up and then sell what you have.
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