And the "best speaker you ever heard" thread is now at 1535 posts and still going strong . . . Well I agree with the Wolfman that it's all about the "mellow." If it takes $160K to get mellow, hey who am I to say boo. As for me, I'm rockin' with my 70s heart-throb Linda Ronstadt in her roller skating shorts. And I know that my rig is crankin'. Because here's comes wifey with the rolling pin cause' I'm blastin' away.
I've never claimed (or purported...which as an act sounds painful) to have unharshable mellow, and this sort of misinformation only results my mellow becoming harshed...again...more to the point, wondering if speaker manufacturers have their own taste is pretty funny. "Sorry Bob, I just don't care what the Magico Schmekerman Signature sounds like...just ship 'em out."
Speakers are like women. Except cheaper. All shapes and sizes. Some beautiful. Some not so. Guys have their favorites. Some make better mates with the rest of the gear than others. How to choose? A divorce from a particular is relatively cheap and simple. Hallelujah!
I will be the first too admit I am not as well versed in the audio world as 99% of the posters out here, but, do manufacturers have their own musical agenda when it comes to building speakers to their own musical taste. Just a thaught.
See! We can't even get agreement on the fact that my Polks are the equal of the Wilson Maxx. If we can't get agreement on something this obvious, what chance is there of coming to agreement on more contentious questions! This gentleman made my point. Cheers
In other words, my Polks could end up in the same group as the Wilson Maxx. :)
So, of ALL the speakers on the market, we could end up with just a few different groups. Some people think, believe it or not, that speakers are the ONLY component that exhibit differences. :)
Snarky! The key thing is always how your gear makes you feel when you're doing some active listening. If you feel there is something needing improvement you'll stop listening to the music...I once had to swap some otherwise well regarded cables IMMEDIATELY because they were harshing my mellow. If you want to listen to music and not your hifi, you should hire musicians. Since that's not always practical (and they might steal your beer), you have to use gear that appeals to YOU...you are utterly alone in this. Reviews, although often entertaining, can't tell you how anything sounds to you, in your home, in front of your head. If things sound good together in a system, you're there! And lucky.
"Surely there's a consensus that there are audible differences among speakers!"
Yes, there can be differences. But, I think there are fewer differences than we might think. If we could really test them, we would find that there are 'groups' of speakers that are sonically the same. In other words, my Polks could end up in the same group as the Wilson Maxx. :)
So, of ALL the speakers on the market, we could end up with just a few different groups. Some people think, believe it or not, that speakers are the ONLY component that exhibit differences. :) Cheers.
Rok2id, yes . . . I agree with your take on the subject. Let me just add that there is a thread out there that pops up from time to time which asks what are the best speakers on the market, or something to that effect. At last count, there were over 1300 hits on that thread.
As I see it, if the consensus view is that it is NOT always possible to compare two speakers, even under identical test conditions because of synergy issues with the rest of the system, the amp in particular, are there any guidelines that one can look to when trying to make an informed decision.
I make this point, because as a general matter, it's generally not practical to bring one's amp to the dealer (least of all the rest of your rig). And even if one does, many dealers wire up their test gear "behind a wall" for aesthetic reasons, thereby making it difficult to tie one's amp into the dealer's system. Hence, how can one make an informed judgment, even relying on your ears at the dealer's showroom?
What sounds wonderful at the dealer, could very well suck when you bring it home. Then what are you going to do?? Try to exchange out your speakers, or just live with them, or start the A'gon merry-go-round??
That's why I posed my Q. IMHO, to ask for speaker recommendations in a vacuum is silly. To respond to such questions is even sillier.
"If the answer (or consensus) is "NO," then how can one in the market for new speakers make an intelligent and informed decision?"
There is NO CONSENSUS concerning ANYTHING on this site. Ask ANY question about ANYTHING and you will see. You cannot use the posts / answers on this site as factual evidence about anything!! It's a big waste of time to try. Find speakers you might like based on size, cost, looks and specs and listen to them. If you like them, case closed, Phase angle and crossovers and impedence notwithstanding. Can you hear phase angle? We as a species can barely hear a full grown male lion coming thru the grass. All of our senses suck! Get what you like and be done. For every person that says buy A, there will be just as many saying buy B, and a few saying buy Z. And nothing you asked has anything to do with technical expertise. If all 'opinion'. And trust me, EVERYONE here has one of those. Cheers.
Just posted this OP. See above. In a way we're asking the same question. I also think my OP touches on may of the points raisd in this OP.
" This post is directed to the more technical members of A'gon.
I've been reading numerous posts and audio reviews which compared various brands and models of speakers against each other. For example, in one thread a member said he was sure speaker A sounded all-around better then speaker B because when the two speakers were compared at a dealer's shop, they were in the same sound room, driven by the same equipment, same source material, and so forth. For discusion purposes, let's just accept that all relevant conditions were the same.
Here's my question. Even if all relevant variable factors were controlled and the same, can one still fairly say they "A/B'ed" two speakers??
And here's the basis for my question. As I have been reading and trying to understand the science and technology behind what drives input signal to speaker output, I have come to appreciate that there are many other variables that can affect what comes out as sound.
For example, every speaker on the market has it's own electronic fingerprint so to speak that can affect how it interacts with the amp being used, e.g., efficiency, impedance, phase angle, and so forth -- all of which change over the frequency range. I'm not even touching on home room acoustics.
Another case in point, one member (M-1) commented that a certain speaker (A) he listened to at a dealer sounded hot and caused hearing fatigue as compared to another speaker (B). He fairly concluded that speaker B was the better sounding speaker.
Interestingly, another member (M-2) questioned how M-1 could come to such a conclusion. His experience was totally opposite.
I don't recall that either member mentioned the type of equipment that was being used. However, M-1 was certain that the dealer listening conditions were identical.
Many of the more technical A'gon members have posted numerous threads about the synergy or lack thereof between tube amps and solid state amps with varioius types of speakers that present certain loads to the amp.
If such is the case, then I'm back to my origianl Q. Is it really possible to compare (A/B) speakers even if conditions and variables are identical??
If the answer (or consensus) is "NO," then how can one in the market for new speakers make an intelligent and informed decision?"
With so many speakers on the market, I think the better assertion is that there are specific speakers that work better with specific hardware and cables.
As a result of a proper synergy above, will one enjoy a pleasing result across most,if not all, music genres.
Answering in the most useless way, yes there are. Musical instrument speakers work better for live music from an instrument rather then from a stereo. Although some have used them that way, for what we are thinking about the gamut of hifi speakers does quite well with all the variations. Some far better than others. Now we have to understand what "better" is. Thanks for enduring my reply.
My Silverline Preludes are great midrange producers and get most of the punch of drums, but benefit big time from a REL sub (Q150e) that puts the mojo into drums (and everything else). A favorite John Scofield recording called "Grace Under Pressure" (killer Bill Frisell 2nd guitar stuff) has drummer Joey Baron smacking a gigantic bass drum here and there that seems to come outta nowhere...just cool.
Wolf, love your take on drums. They are acoustic in the fullest sense and if hidden in playback, pray that it is due to the recording and not your speakers.
My Tonians "only" go down to 40Hz and drop off rapidly after that and yet drums come across most convincingly when recorded properly. The effect can be rather shocking at times.
If there is some factor in recorded drums that causes them to hide in specific speakers that produce "acoustic music" well, I'm not getting it. Drums are acoustic instruments. The nature of reproduced music is essentially the same...a bazouki or a Telecaster through a system is the same electronic pulse through the speakers...it just is. Some speakers are bright, some have less bass extension, but if your speakers are discriminating against drummers they are making arbitrary decisions and need a stern talking to.
The Sonus Fabers I have heard are SUBLIME with Acoustic Music of ALL types,yet on most rock/modern blues recordings the drum kits seem so recessed they almost can't be heard. Dynaudio speakers are the only ones I have ever heard that seem to work with every musical genre...
I think the "find a decent sounding room" solution is great. The room right off the bar at the Paris Opera House is perfect. Unfortunately, I don't live anywhere near France and somehow I doubt they'd let me hang out there with my hifi. I settle for my book, CD, and art lined listening/great room...it sounds great (hence the name), and instead of room treatment I just wear puffy clothes and mess up my hair. The specific answer is: There are so many speakers because it's a LARGE WORLD OUT THERE with many people making things. I'm firmly in the camp that my rig should reproduce whatever I want to listen to regardless of the content...it's reasonably full range (I use a good sub), clear, accurate, and can go loud enough. Plus it has plenty of little lights and tubes and stuff so it's hip. Very important.
For a moment I thought you asked WHY are there so many speakers on the market. That would have been one of the best questions ever, and I was prepared to bet all my Tiny Tim LPs that no one would get the right answer. Close but no cigar! Cheers
There might be speakers made to a specific type of music but I wouldn't have any speaker made that way. Ever.
Take a long, hard look at all the different types of speakers and see how they portray the human voice, and then acoustic instruments. If they can do that in a convincing manner, then they should be able to handle almost any kind of music genre you can think of, clipping aside (that's where the amp comes into play).
From my experience, I prefer widebanders with some kind of tweeter augmentation. The payoff is coherence, imaging, timing (some of your English types refer to it as PRaT) and a wonderful sense of involvement.
Any decent amp can play the middle man so make sure your source is up to par with what you want to hear and how you want to hear it. Remember the old adage: garbage in, garbage out.
That's my take on the whole affair and it's what I've settled for. Good luck in what you chose and don't be a big hurry to upgrade.
This brings to mind my personal philosophy (which will no doubt irk the "source first" gang) is that job one is to find a decent sounding room and place a nice set of speakers in there that work really well in the space and optimally placed acoustically within said space-add room treatments as needed. Next, find an amp that really likes driving these speakers. If you got that, you're 90% home and well prepared to hear the differences upstream with any gear selection you should choose. If you don't, prepare to join the brigade of gear swapping zombies that is AudioGon.
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