I have an older McIntosh integrated with a great phono stage and dac. The dac isn't upgradable but I also use one of their SACD players so that didn't matter to me. The Mac will be the last integrated you buy and it will hold its value as well. Also, it is made in New York in the good old USA.
So many integrated options -- McIntosh 8900, Levinson 585, Lyngdorf 2170, Anthem STR,
just to name a few that I'm considering. Here's my current situation and what I'm thinking. I'm currently running a Denon AVR X5200, which is a top level AV receiver, but I use a very powerful Krell power amp, the FPB 400cx, to power the front L/R speakers. It actually sounds decent, but for my two channel listening, I'm limited to the quality of the pre-amp section in the Denon. Now, the 400cx is a class A amp, runs very hot, and weighs over 100 pounds. So, I'm wondering if I can improve my overall sound quality by going with a high end integrated amp for my two channel listening. I'd also be getting rid of one huge, heavy, and hot box and reducing the need for interconnect cables.
Now, all these units include a home theater bypass, so I could continue to use my Denon for my Blu-ray movies and TV watching, thereby preserving my multi-channel system. I also use my Oppo 203 to play multi-channel SACD and DVD-Audio over HDMI into the Denon. With one of these integrated amps, I could then connect my Oppo's digital output, my laptop pc, and my turntable, to the IA. I would think the DAC and associated analog output stages, as well as the phono stage quality of the integrated amps would be superior to that of the Denon receiver.
As to my integrated amp options, I really like the functionality of the McIntosh 8900 in that it can truly serve as a "one box" solution because it includes a nice phono stage. It also has the upgradeable DAC module, which has the potential to somewhat "future proof" it in case McIntosh releases an upgraded module. 200 wpc.
The ML No. 585 has the highest list price and has great reviews, although it's been out a few years. It does not offer a modular DAC or phono input, although I could easily obtain a nice phono stage. 200wpc.
The Lyngdorf is currently very hot here on Agon and people are heaping praise on its sound quality. Again, it has a DAC but no phono stage. Not as much power as the 8900, STR, or 585.
The Anthem STR Integrated is new and also includes MM and MC phono inputs. 200 wpc. Includes Anthem Room Correction.
Any opinions or experience here with these options? Thanks much.
Now, all these units include a home theater bypass, so I could continue to use my Denon for my Blu-ray movies and TV watching, thereby preserving my multi-channel system. I also use my Oppo 203 to play multi-channel SACD and DVD-Audio over HDMI into the Denon. With one of these integrated amps, I could then connect my Oppo's digital output, my laptop pc, and my turntable, to the IA. I would think the DAC and associated analog output stages, as well as the phono stage quality of the integrated amps would be superior to that of the Denon receiver.
As to my integrated amp options, I really like the functionality of the McIntosh 8900 in that it can truly serve as a "one box" solution because it includes a nice phono stage. It also has the upgradeable DAC module, which has the potential to somewhat "future proof" it in case McIntosh releases an upgraded module. 200 wpc.
The ML No. 585 has the highest list price and has great reviews, although it's been out a few years. It does not offer a modular DAC or phono input, although I could easily obtain a nice phono stage. 200wpc.
The Lyngdorf is currently very hot here on Agon and people are heaping praise on its sound quality. Again, it has a DAC but no phono stage. Not as much power as the 8900, STR, or 585.
The Anthem STR Integrated is new and also includes MM and MC phono inputs. 200 wpc. Includes Anthem Room Correction.
Any opinions or experience here with these options? Thanks much.
37 responses Add your response
Mr Trot, You will not be happy with replacing the Krell FPB 400 with an integrated amp. The only type of integrated amplifer that we know that can beat such a beast is the T+A HV 3000 or a Gryphon or a similar uber integrated amp. The Anthem STR is a nice integrated but it will not improve what you allready have. A great two channel preamp go with a BAT VK 52se and use that with you Krell amps and it will make the Krell amps sound way better. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Thanks, Dave. Just to be clear, my FPB 400cx is a single stereo amp. Just clarifying this, since you used the plural, "amps" twice. I would have thought that the pre-amp sections of any of these integrated amps might be superior enough to that of my AVR to still beat the sound of the Denon AVR/Krell combination. |
If op goes route of adding a preamp then he is adding yet another box and cables into the mix, not what he was looking to do I think. Obviously I am biased but the Lyngdorf2170 is a formidable piece and it may well be among the last integrated I own. I went from a BAT VK600SE power amp (300wpc) and Exogal Comet Plus DAC/pre to the Lyngdorf with a few other integrated inbetween. I do not miss the additional watts at all. The room perfect software more than makes up for it. It has possibly the best digital front-end I have yet heard. Yes no phono or headphone jack. I use a dynavector p75 into one of the analog inputs for phono and take the digital output to a Burson headphone amp and I am as happy as I have ever been. Is it fatiguing at all ? Lets just say I probably played vinyl through it yesterday for at least 12 hours, nuff said. I also tried a Classe Sigma 2200I, and a pair of Hegel amps, h300 and h160. The Lyngdorf beats them handily in the sq department in my system to my ears |
Is it fatiguing at all ? Lets just say I probably played vinyl through it yesterday for at least 12 hours @uberwaltz This is NOT a 'negative' post regarding your Lyngdorf...rather, I am looking for clarification. For me, recording qualities are variable enough and should come through. So when I read your post and statement regarding 12 hours of non fatiguing listening it makes me wonder about the system (not necessarily the amplification) editing to 'pleasant-ness.' Barring very deliberate and conscious choices for each recording played. Can you comment or elaborate? Thank you. |
@david_ten Not entirely sure I understand what you are looking for in that question? And I do not wish to derail the ops thread at all. What I meant was there have been lots of comments on other threads on digital or class d amplification leading to a sound that becomes prematurely fatiguing. I think the Room Perfect software is a huge boon in ensuring this does not happen in my system. Tbh I cannot imagine playing music without it now. No more testing different cables as "tone controls" to tame the low end bass and other artifacts etc. Not sure if that was the answer you were looking for though? |
Thanks, all. I guess I'm most interested in reports along the lines of Uberwaltz, i.e., ones from a person who has used some of these competing integrated amps. My main objective is to get a sense of the "house sound" of these various integrated amps, in terms of tonality, sound stage, imaging, treble quality, and bass extension and control, etc. Now, as to room correction and EQ systems in general, I've always pretty much eschewed such and tried to run my systems "flat", but I suppose that, given my room's definite bass null in the listening area and my inexorable high frequency hearing loss now that I'm in my 60s, I should be more open to them. I don't feel that my Denon AVR, even with the Krell power amp, is capable of producing the natural, open, and airy high frequency sounds of instruments such as cymbals, and high notes of violins as I've heard through systems consisting of more high end amplification. Hence, my interest in a possible integrated amp solution. |
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Deleted my previous post since @mtrot answered part of it. @uberwaltz You answered my question, to a degree. Thank you. I’m trying to get a better feel for what the Lyngdorf does, which is why I asked the question. I believe it is germane to the original post given the central crux of the OP’s question and because the Lyngdorf is a possible choice.I’m also in the thick of it regarding choosing an integrated amplifier, the T+A Dave/audiotroy recommends being one of them. Any discussion that adds to the understanding of one of his amp choices, is in my opinion, helpful to him and the community. |
@mtrot Exactly my prior misgivings on room correction. However after reading numerous actual owner reviews I took the plunge on the Lyngdorf. My room is terrible acoustics wise and bass has always been an issue and after running the RoomPerfect and sat down for the first serious listening session I was a believer. Prior to the Lyngdorf I used Hegel h300 and h160, these were no slouch at all but my room still gave me bass issues. In my room and system the classe sigma was the least satisfying, on paper it sounded great, in reality it just did not gel for me. Maybe with wimpier speakers that were bass deficient it could be good. With my Wilson’s and 12 inch drivers bass was even more overblown that the Hegel. Now I am a hardcore basshead, no doubt about it but it has to be defined, controlled bass not one note boom! The Lyngdorf works on both digital and analog sources in my system extremely well. Just my results in my system and my ears. YMMV |
@david_ten Glad can help in any way. I strongly believe one of the Lyngdorf main strengths is the RoomPerfect and its superb volume control. I find the software and its ease of use to be a huge bonus. Now that being said Lyngdorf has just released a new more powerful integrated, the 3400. This has 200wpc, a built in media player and the ability to tailor the room perfect curve after it has been performed if you feel you need more or know better than Lyngdorf..lol. No reviews out on that yet and at a $7k price tag it may pay to wait and see how it is received. |
It all depends a bit on the other gear you want to use. Personally I have given up on analogue sources (I am deeply convinced of the superiority of digital), and I use a very good stereo system with large speakers and a sub for HT. If you are willing to consider that route you may want to consider the new DSpeaker Antimode X4, and use it with your existing Krell power amp. The X4 lacks a mc input, but it does have a both rca and xlr analogue inputs, so you could add a mc phono pre amp if you really wanted. The X4 is a preamp, DAC, electronic crossover and room eq unit of very high quality. See here: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-x4.shtml Earlier DSpeaker units like the Antimode 80333 (dsp subwoofer room eq) and Antimode Dual Core (basic pre amp and main speaker or subwoofer room eq) were very well received by both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound. |
Just to further my love for the 2170, I do play a fair amount of analog(vinyl and cassette). It still manages to convey that analog warmth and detail we love from a very well mastered analog source. Don,t get me wrong their are some really bad vinyl recordings as well but when vinyl is good, well life is very good! I use both digital and analog sources and love the sq of each one through the Lyngdorf. |
Uberwaltz your discussion and love of the Lyndorg is fine, however, just because you have a built in room correction system doesn't mean that a user will love the sound of the product. We have the Anthem STR which is a $4,500 dollar integrated, class A/B with a great Dac and the state of the art Anthem ARC room correction system. This product doesn't' sound anywhere as good, in terms of richness and bass definiition compared to the Micromega M100 which is also a $4,500 integrated wtih room correction as an option. The Micromega which is also class A/B with a built in dac sounds noticably different. Also the Anthem STR integrated sounds decent but the Anthem seperates are way superior sounding even though they are based on the same circuitry, the seperates sound noticably warmer, cleaner, and are more engaging. So the point is that each listener must hear the product for themselves. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@audiotroy Quite possibly I was a little effusive in my posts on the Lyngdorf. However my take on the OPS thread was that he was looking for real life experience from actual owners. And as out of his group the Lyngdorf is the only one I have owned it was only right to comment solely on that. I do not think he is looking for Google derived info from armchair test pilots. For example I hear the Devialet units are highly regarded with great reviews but as I have no experience I offered no comment. I appreciate your insight on other units that you do have experience of and hopefully that also helped the OP. Respectfully...... |
Update: After being counseled NOT to give up my Krell class A amp, I’m now considering going with a pre-amp that has home theater bypass. My original thinking was that I could pretty much fund a new integrated by selling the Krell. But if I’m going to miss the class A audio quality of the Krell, well maybe I won’t go that route. Specifically, I’m looking at the new Anthem STR pre-amp, which includes DAC, phono input, and home theater bypass, and looks to me like it will do everything that I want. That would allow me to use XLR connections to my Krell. Regarding McIntosh, their pre-amps don’t seem to be as versatile. @ uberwaltz, Yes, I’m looking for hands-on experiences. Edit: Actually, the McIntosh C47 pre-amp is more versatile than I thought, as it does offer home theater bypass. And it's actually a bit cheaper retail price than the Anthem STR. |
mac preamp with tone controls..... listening to my 1965 MX-110 Z as we speak.... Charlie Haydens bass is singing... seriously the EQ on a Mac preamp can come in handy.... i will say an Ayre or Pass Integrated should at least be on your listen to list IMO.. and the 85 wpc VTL is super sweet if ya like valves...er tubes.... |
The Anthem Str preamp has one gigantic advantage over the Mac which is room correction. The sound of a system can dramatically improve by using ARC. Also the preamp is software upgradable and is highly configurable the STR also has a built in phono stage. We have not yet tested the STR preamp vs any other preamps however the sound with the STR power amp is really impressive. and you may want to eventually replace your Krell amp with the Anthem. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I would have to agree with audiotroy here, the room correction should be very decisive unless you have already a perfect room. Now for one year I actually had a Mac c48 driving BAT VK600SE. I cannot imagine the c47 is sonically much different. What can I say? Typical Mac house sound, somewhat warm, inoffensive. Some like it, a lot of love for Mac here for sure. It was not for me but again my room may have been the biggest issue. The c48 was extremely versatile though, great setup options and the eq was useful but still no full room correction. |
I did not really dislike anything about the VK600SE at all. I just wanted to consolidate down to one box if possible. The BAT, like everything in my system just produced too much low energy bass but I know that was a result of my room. So with the room correction software of the Lyngdorf I thought it might be the solution. And so far it has proven to be the case, as I cannot change the room anytime soon for sure. Possibly in a much better acoustic room I may not have looked at changing although I did still have the urge to consolidate equipment. The BAT was a very fine piece of muscle for sure, just for my needs the Lyngdorf has worked out very well |
McIntosh says the C47 is their most advanced preamp yet. ( along with its bigger brother the C52). If the brand is serious, it should be better than the older C48. I find that the sound of their preamps have evolved more than the sound of their amps. Mac sound is more detailed and neutral that it was once, a little bit more punch also, but still have kept that midrange boldness and richness they are know for. Personally, I totally dig their sonic signature and the eq they include permits you to tune the sound depending on the recording. At first listen, they may sound a tad warm or inoffensive compared to other brands, but engage the eq boosting the mids to highs and everything gets livier. Just Bypass the eq when you listen to a harsher recording, and the warmth returns and permits you to listen louder without fatigue...You can t do that with a Simaudio or ARC pre...you have to live with the signature they choose for you. And my experience is that some ´´shouty and brassy’´ recordings are though to live with if you have a livier pre in the loop. |
I have a Pass Labs INT-250. You will be hard pressed to find a better amp/preamp combination that can compete with this integrated amp. It is expensive, but worth it, in its clarity, simplicity and absolute excellence. I have it connected to a Herron phono amp and B and W 802 D3 speakers, VPI Prime signature with Van den Hul Strat. On a separate note I am surprised how many members of this forum make judgements on components before breaking them in. It takes about 200 hours before some components achieve their potential. For cartridges sometimes more. In the case of my speaker about 1000 hours. |
Wow, at AXPONA, I heard the Mark Levinson 585, and it may relegate all my other options to the dust bin. Although admittedly more expensive, the Mark Levinson 585 integrated sounded awesome in a very simple system. All it consisted of was the 585, a set of the new Revel F228 be speakers, and a streaming device. This system delivered everything, including deep visceral bass, beautiful vocals with precise placement of the singers, powerful attack on transients, great tonality, and sparkling highs. Has anyone had experience with the 585? |
That Axpona room rocked, man. I spent 30 minutes in there Friday. Went back Sunday to listen for another hour or so, although the music selection they chose on Sunday kind of sucked in my opinion. I'm not a classical or jazz guy. I prefer Rock and Roll. The 585 paired with those F228 was so good. I'm a Focal guy and am giving props to that setup. The 585 made my list after listening as well. BAT VK3000SE is my other choice, although I've yet to listen. |
Meant to post my only hold up with the 585 is that it has the built in DAC, which you're paying extra for. I'm not a fan of a built-in DAC as digital technology is always changing. You'll want to replace it later for the latest/greatest in digital and then you have a DAC in your pre section you'll never use..... |
@ snafujg Well, that's true, but in my situation, I've never had any audio equipment that even approaches the audio quality that I heard out of that room. So, I feel like the DAC in the 585 might be great for me for some time. Also, I suspect that, once you get to a certain level of DAC, the overall sound quality you hear will be more dependent on the quality level of the pre-amp and power amp sections of an integrated amp, and the 585 has that in spades. BTW, there is a newer version of the 585, the 585.5, which incorporates the top flight phono stage from their pre-amps, but they get you for another $4000, bringing the retail price of the 585.5 to $16,000. |
mtrot I have never really given much consideration to an integrated amp w/ built in DAC until I heard the Rega Elicit-R a few years ago. Along this theme, I spent time w/ an ARC CD9 and Aesthetix Romulus spinners. Each featuring a killer DAC section for several applications. Recently, I had the pleasure of spending time w/ the Anthem STR and its DAC connected to an inexpensive Yamaha universal player. In each case, each product was outstanding in its own way. Compare all of these products to an original Audio Alchemy DAC from the 90's and you might be amazed at the technological advances in 2018. I do not believe that I would ever purchase an external DAC. I could possibly enjoy one of the above mentioned products that incorporates an internal DAC as part of its concept/design. Happy Listening! |