Snake oil came first. By a likely ~ +50k years

Back to the OT: When I was in the Air Force we had a Lt. Colonel in the clinic who, in addition to being an MD, was proud of the fact that he had been to shaman school. Never knew what that was or what it meant. Would often see him in his office sitting face to face with patients looking them intently in the eyes. Nothing unseemly, his door was always open, just weird. His patients were loyal to him. I never knew if it was because of his shaman training or the fact that he was extraordinarily liberal with narcotics. He did not believe that anyone should ever have any pain whatsoever.

Men Who Stare at Goats. No goats, no glory.

People would be much better off if they believed in too much instead of too little. - PT Barnum

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile axiom

Going back to physiology?

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."

Women do.

It appears all I have to do is utter the words ordinary man and poof! Glubson shows up. Coincidence?

"...utter the words ordinary man and poof! Glubson shows up."

Opposites attract.

teo-audio: you indicated in your OT:

Study suggests shamans acted as the first professional class in human society

The first professional class, i.e., professionals providing specific services, is not the same thing as professionalism, which is the competence or skill of A PROFESSIONAL.

Two very different things.

We were told in ROTC that historically the idea of professionalism started with the military officer class. Not sure if this is true. But at the time of the development of that concept that particular class was surely putting it all on the line for their calling. It was not just training and a standard of conduct, it was putting your life on the line too.

Something like that is likely true when it comes to the record in formalization.

engineering is born out of middle ages bombmakers for warfare. The original bombs came about when gunpowder finally appeared in the west. 

then the dangerous job of the bomb maker or 'engineer' arrived as a descriptive. He makes engines. Engines of war. (devices of war)

The term 'hoisted by his own petard', is in reference to engineers who blew themselves up.

"Two very different things."

Like you said, I indicated and never called it that at all. So it is difficult to be as what you might be saying I said, as I said no such thing.  Perhaps yours is a general remark?

As for the shaman being a professional or not, we can’t really argue that in any sensible fashion. No point.

True story. I accumulated the most demerits in Air Force ROTC in the history of the U. Maybe in the history of ROTC, who knows? I guess some people aren’t cut out for that kind of professionalism. Besides I found it quite difficult to accessorize with that dreadful blue gray color.

"engineering is born out of middle ages bombmakers for warfare..."

Maybe English word "engineering". Not engineering as constructing/inventing something.

Very much a case of inventing and constructing. The engine maker of the war effort. The word and it’s meaning as an origin point.

In modern parlance engineers don’t invent. They build by the book. If inventing -- that’s science. It can be easy to mix it up and mis-name it though. People do it all the time, so much so that the thing is a bit confused.

I’m not saying that engineers can’t be creative that they aren’t, but in modern parlance, the two are separated into science (theory and original creation) and build by the book (engineer)(which is enabled by the theory and original creation). Engineers search for solutions all the time but they don’t build a bridge based on a theory. 

Scientists, on the other hand, don’t build bridges. Thankfully. Not sure I want to be driving or walking on a bridge built on a theory.

Nor would I ever want to entertain walking on something based on theory. Yet we've taken concrete steps in governing (where the modern shamans reside) and perverted them into abstract (theoretical) concepts to govern by in order to placate the false shamans, resulting in an almost amusing form of chaos. 

Nothing works as it should. Modern shamans of the political bent are ever increasingly neglecting and rejecting proven methods of governing to satisfy their ill conceived notions of how things they perceive should be done. Past is no longer prologue and we are repeating and rhyming past mistakes at an alarming rate, which is one of the definitions of insanity.

Shamans used to rise based on merit and success (raising the tree at the end of winter to signify the coming spring, predicting the next eclipse, etc.) but now they bamboozle and bullshit their way to the top, revealing a hollowing out of the art of the shaman.

That's where professionalism comes into play. Shamans are shamans for a good reason: they are, or should be, among the best at their intended task, be it politics, religion, engineering, agriculture, science, medicine, etc.

All the best,
Nonoise

geoffkait , It could have been worse , imagine how many demerits you would of got if you were in a military ROTC unit .

I once knew the Admiral in charge of Naval Aviation quite well as he was related to my wife.I asked him why they recruited so much at the Big Ten Universities Engineering Schools which I knew to be the case .He replied: " They are smart enough to learn whatever we throw at them but lack the imagination to picture themselves smashing into the back of the deck during night-ops ."I know he was telling the truth because he was 3 sheets to the wind at the time .

@schubert Good one. We used to call it "Chair Force".

True story. I went to a military college. Had to decide which ROTC to sign up for. I went to each one and asked them how much PT they did. Marines, multiple times a week. Army, every Friday. Navy, once a month. Air Force, once a semester. For a thinking man there was no question about where to go.

@geoffkait The modern USAF have, perhaps, the ugliest and least awe inspiring uniforms in history.

@nonoise The political pseudo-shamans of today are technically what you’d call a bureaucrat. They are, in my opinion, the very opposite of anything even resembling professionalism. They are governed by no principles, ideals or concepts, not even pragmatism, other than the notion that all problems can be solved with more paper work and bureaucracy. In this respect they resemble cancer more than anything else. Currently almost all real power in the U.S. resides with them.

Strange , all Marine candidates are in the Navy ROTC  and they all do the same thing at all drills at college . Usually they split up in summer of 2nd year for month at sea or Marine base .Often , the Officer Commanding will just mark the most aggressive cadets
for Marines .

Hel-loo! Geoffy “Toiletbreath” The Fuse and Snake Oil Troll is just a pathetic janitor suffering from fear of self inadequacy. There is no help or hope for such an unfortunate. Toot toot toot! Get on the self improvement train 🚂 🚂 🚂 Geoffy, if you can. It’s time for new year’s resolutions. 😂 😆 🤣 rpt 😂 😆 🤣 

You didn't drive home yourself, did you?

@schubert My memory is probably not accurate. And maybe it was ’voluntary’ PT but the Marines were always doing it. My roommate was in Navy ROTC and he never went out with the Marines. Where I went to school all of us, every single student, were in ROTC whether we intended to accept a commission or not. So way more than half of the student body, all males back then, took four full years of ROTC but never went into the military. Which is all to say that it was probably the career track guys out there running and doing push-ups all the time.

Edit: I just looked it up. The school has a "Marine Contingent" within the Navy ROTC department. They accept Marine Corp commissions.

Stop living in the past and bragging about all the demerits and get back to current business, ie spewing nonsense repeatedly and non stop.

There is a lots of past going on here. It takes some time to gather past. Lots of military talk, too. Who would have guessed it is on the fuse vs. wire direction vs. timbre forum. Nothing wrong with a little lighter topic, especially on a self-indulgent thread like this.

The closest I got to the military is my draft card which I still have. 

mapman15,539 posts12-13-2018 9:58pmStop living in the past and bragging about all the demerits and get back to current business, ie spewing nonsense repeatedly and non stop.

>>>Take a happy pill and stop obsessing about me. ‘Tis the season to be jolly. 😃

Was Einstein a shaman? Galileo? As the lines get blurry between classical physics and quantum mechanics and between physics and metaphysics it’s perhaps best to recall Arthur C. Clark’s observation, A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

In the Air Force the saying was that if you complain about a problem long enough someone of higher rank will finally.............tell you to stop.

Was the computer program glitch at a Subway, perchance?

Premium cable companies use science so it makes a big difference

 Scientist used math to "prove" gay marriage is wrong
Chibuihem Amalaha used magnets to "prove" that gay marriage is wrong. North and south poles of magnets are attracted to each other, but the same poles repel. Therefore, this obviously "means that man cannot attract another man because they are the same.

The latest scientific evidence ( Women's Health Magazine) shows that the sons of pregnant women who consume chicken are more likely to have smaller penises because of a chemical found in the birds' flesh."

TECHNOLOGY EDITOR, WALL STREET JOURNAL
  Wilson Rothman says there's a body of research indicating that premium cables may indeed sound  better than cheaper cables.     

50K years ago shamans were warning about the chicken and penis connection.

9 billion chickens are eaten by Americans every year. That's about 93 pounds of chicken per person. 50 billion world wide.

"I eat more chicken any man ever seen." Jim Morrison

I guess it settles the question as to which came first.

It was the rooster. Get him drunk. Ask him. He'll crow all about it.

😂😂😂😂😂