Snake oil came first. By a likely ~ +50k years

😂😂😂😂😂

It was the rooster. Get him drunk. Ask him. He'll crow all about it.

I guess it settles the question as to which came first.

9 billion chickens are eaten by Americans every year. That's about 93 pounds of chicken per person. 50 billion world wide.

"I eat more chicken any man ever seen." Jim Morrison

50K years ago shamans were warning about the chicken and penis connection.

Premium cable companies use science so it makes a big difference

 Scientist used math to "prove" gay marriage is wrong
Chibuihem Amalaha used magnets to "prove" that gay marriage is wrong. North and south poles of magnets are attracted to each other, but the same poles repel. Therefore, this obviously "means that man cannot attract another man because they are the same.

The latest scientific evidence ( Women's Health Magazine) shows that the sons of pregnant women who consume chicken are more likely to have smaller penises because of a chemical found in the birds' flesh."

TECHNOLOGY EDITOR, WALL STREET JOURNAL
  Wilson Rothman says there's a body of research indicating that premium cables may indeed sound  better than cheaper cables.     

Was the computer program glitch at a Subway, perchance?

In the Air Force the saying was that if you complain about a problem long enough someone of higher rank will finally.............tell you to stop.

Was Einstein a shaman? Galileo? As the lines get blurry between classical physics and quantum mechanics and between physics and metaphysics it’s perhaps best to recall Arthur C. Clark’s observation, A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

mapman15,539 posts12-13-2018 9:58pmStop living in the past and bragging about all the demerits and get back to current business, ie spewing nonsense repeatedly and non stop.

>>>Take a happy pill and stop obsessing about me. ‘Tis the season to be jolly. 😃

The closest I got to the military is my draft card which I still have. 

There is a lots of past going on here. It takes some time to gather past. Lots of military talk, too. Who would have guessed it is on the fuse vs. wire direction vs. timbre forum. Nothing wrong with a little lighter topic, especially on a self-indulgent thread like this.

Stop living in the past and bragging about all the demerits and get back to current business, ie spewing nonsense repeatedly and non stop.

@schubert My memory is probably not accurate. And maybe it was ’voluntary’ PT but the Marines were always doing it. My roommate was in Navy ROTC and he never went out with the Marines. Where I went to school all of us, every single student, were in ROTC whether we intended to accept a commission or not. So way more than half of the student body, all males back then, took four full years of ROTC but never went into the military. Which is all to say that it was probably the career track guys out there running and doing push-ups all the time.

Edit: I just looked it up. The school has a "Marine Contingent" within the Navy ROTC department. They accept Marine Corp commissions.

You didn't drive home yourself, did you?

Hel-loo! Geoffy “Toiletbreath” The Fuse and Snake Oil Troll is just a pathetic janitor suffering from fear of self inadequacy. There is no help or hope for such an unfortunate. Toot toot toot! Get on the self improvement train 🚂 🚂 🚂 Geoffy, if you can. It’s time for new year’s resolutions. 😂 😆 🤣 rpt 😂 😆 🤣 

Strange , all Marine candidates are in the Navy ROTC  and they all do the same thing at all drills at college . Usually they split up in summer of 2nd year for month at sea or Marine base .Often , the Officer Commanding will just mark the most aggressive cadets
for Marines .

@schubert Good one. We used to call it "Chair Force".

True story. I went to a military college. Had to decide which ROTC to sign up for. I went to each one and asked them how much PT they did. Marines, multiple times a week. Army, every Friday. Navy, once a month. Air Force, once a semester. For a thinking man there was no question about where to go.

@geoffkait The modern USAF have, perhaps, the ugliest and least awe inspiring uniforms in history.

@nonoise The political pseudo-shamans of today are technically what you’d call a bureaucrat. They are, in my opinion, the very opposite of anything even resembling professionalism. They are governed by no principles, ideals or concepts, not even pragmatism, other than the notion that all problems can be solved with more paper work and bureaucracy. In this respect they resemble cancer more than anything else. Currently almost all real power in the U.S. resides with them.

I once knew the Admiral in charge of Naval Aviation quite well as he was related to my wife.I asked him why they recruited so much at the Big Ten Universities Engineering Schools which I knew to be the case .He replied: " They are smart enough to learn whatever we throw at them but lack the imagination to picture themselves smashing into the back of the deck during night-ops ."I know he was telling the truth because he was 3 sheets to the wind at the time .

geoffkait , It could have been worse , imagine how many demerits you would of got if you were in a military ROTC unit .

Nor would I ever want to entertain walking on something based on theory. Yet we've taken concrete steps in governing (where the modern shamans reside) and perverted them into abstract (theoretical) concepts to govern by in order to placate the false shamans, resulting in an almost amusing form of chaos. 

Nothing works as it should. Modern shamans of the political bent are ever increasingly neglecting and rejecting proven methods of governing to satisfy their ill conceived notions of how things they perceive should be done. Past is no longer prologue and we are repeating and rhyming past mistakes at an alarming rate, which is one of the definitions of insanity.

Shamans used to rise based on merit and success (raising the tree at the end of winter to signify the coming spring, predicting the next eclipse, etc.) but now they bamboozle and bullshit their way to the top, revealing a hollowing out of the art of the shaman.

That's where professionalism comes into play. Shamans are shamans for a good reason: they are, or should be, among the best at their intended task, be it politics, religion, engineering, agriculture, science, medicine, etc.

All the best,
Nonoise

Very much a case of inventing and constructing. The engine maker of the war effort. The word and it’s meaning as an origin point.

In modern parlance engineers don’t invent. They build by the book. If inventing -- that’s science. It can be easy to mix it up and mis-name it though. People do it all the time, so much so that the thing is a bit confused.

I’m not saying that engineers can’t be creative that they aren’t, but in modern parlance, the two are separated into science (theory and original creation) and build by the book (engineer)(which is enabled by the theory and original creation). Engineers search for solutions all the time but they don’t build a bridge based on a theory. 

Scientists, on the other hand, don’t build bridges. Thankfully. Not sure I want to be driving or walking on a bridge built on a theory.

"engineering is born out of middle ages bombmakers for warfare..."

Maybe English word "engineering". Not engineering as constructing/inventing something.

True story. I accumulated the most demerits in Air Force ROTC in the history of the U. Maybe in the history of ROTC, who knows? I guess some people aren’t cut out for that kind of professionalism. Besides I found it quite difficult to accessorize with that dreadful blue gray color.

"Two very different things."

Like you said, I indicated and never called it that at all. So it is difficult to be as what you might be saying I said, as I said no such thing.  Perhaps yours is a general remark?

As for the shaman being a professional or not, we can’t really argue that in any sensible fashion. No point.

Something like that is likely true when it comes to the record in formalization.

engineering is born out of middle ages bombmakers for warfare. The original bombs came about when gunpowder finally appeared in the west. 

then the dangerous job of the bomb maker or 'engineer' arrived as a descriptive. He makes engines. Engines of war. (devices of war)

The term 'hoisted by his own petard', is in reference to engineers who blew themselves up.

We were told in ROTC that historically the idea of professionalism started with the military officer class. Not sure if this is true. But at the time of the development of that concept that particular class was surely putting it all on the line for their calling. It was not just training and a standard of conduct, it was putting your life on the line too.

teo-audio: you indicated in your OT:

Study suggests shamans acted as the first professional class in human society

The first professional class, i.e., professionals providing specific services, is not the same thing as professionalism, which is the competence or skill of A PROFESSIONAL.

Two very different things.

"...utter the words ordinary man and poof! Glubson shows up."

Opposites attract.

It appears all I have to do is utter the words ordinary man and poof! Glubson shows up. Coincidence?

Going back to physiology?

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."

Women do.

Men Who Stare at Goats. No goats, no glory.

People would be much better off if they believed in too much instead of too little. - PT Barnum

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile axiom

Back to the OT: When I was in the Air Force we had a Lt. Colonel in the clinic who, in addition to being an MD, was proud of the fact that he had been to shaman school. Never knew what that was or what it meant. Would often see him in his office sitting face to face with patients looking them intently in the eyes. Nothing unseemly, his door was always open, just weird. His patients were loyal to him. I never knew if it was because of his shaman training or the fact that he was extraordinarily liberal with narcotics. He did not believe that anyone should ever have any pain whatsoever.

Good comeback, glubson. You da man!

geoffkait,

"...but you can barely put two sentences together."

My consolation is that I am still twice as good as you at that. Or at anything else. Which is not much of a virtue, but at least I am not at the bottom.

Could be an interesting discussion but I expect degeneration will set in quite soon.

Rather, immediately. Despite the OP's valiant efforts to keep it on track, wannabe shamans took it in their direction. 

Everybody wants to rule the world....

All the best,
Nonoise

No worries, glubson, you were not really in this discussion anyway. You’ll pardon me for saying so but you can barely put two sentences together. So emotional! 😥

geoffkait, n80,

I abstain from this hearing/perception war but I did see an opportunity to use placebo.

When it comes to physiology, many mention it, it is almost inevitable when talking about humans which listening to music actually is. Sometimes, statements are a bit off, but, so far, I have encountered only one member who is certifiably clueless about it. And arrogant to match it and then some. All be glad he has not started spilling his wit and wisdom on this particular thread. Taking it into perspective, geoffkait sometimes does make a point. Two of you can decide if that is now, but I am just saying "it can get much worse".

@geoffkait :"n80 is playing a semantics game with me."

It only feels like a game to you geoff. I doubt anyone else was struggling to parse terms just so they could attack someone.

"he gives me this whole vision perception spiel".

My bad. Did not know that you were analogy impaired. I guess that's why you don't get the whole snake oil/ sham audio tweaks thing. 

"For someone who fancies himself an expert on physiology he didn’t do a very good job with hearing and perception"

Hardly a "fancy". I've got the credentials to back it up. But that's beside the point isn't it? We know who has the only credentials that count. Everyone else's are pretense, right?

And the only reason you think it wasn't a good job is because as always your initial impulse in virtually any thread is to attack. And this time, like so many others, it failed and made you look rather, well, Geoffish.

"left himself wide open to attack"

I guess it still seems counterintuitive to have to protect myself from "attack" in a hi-fi forum. Were it not for you that would not have become a necessity here at Audiogon.

"Let’s try to focus here"

Strange comment from the primary disruptor of civil conversation on this site. Apparently you are irony impaired as well.

Thanks, glugson, Semantics is the word I was looking for! n80 is playing a semantics game with me. We are on an audio forum and when asked to differentiate “hearing” from “perception” he gives me this whole vision perception spiel. For someone who fancies himself an expert on physiology he didn’t do a very good job with hearing and perception, as I already pointed out, and left himself wide open to attack. Plus n80 lost a golden opportunity to blow his placebo horn. 🎺 I’m guessing he thinks he’s still back on his photography forum. Let’s try to focus here.

n80,

With some experience, you will interpret and perceive geoffkait differently. There is a lot of semantics involved. geoffkait, Geoff, Kitty...

@geoffkait "Duh?"

You asked. Sherlock.

"  it’s probably best to use my interpretation - hearing is the same thing as perception of sound"

Not really.You can perceive sound without a functioning auditory system. Not many people would call that hearing. So your interpretation is not precise either. The semantics can get dicey. 

My point in differentiating the two is to point out that two people can hear the exact same thing and respond to and describe it differently even with both of them having equally sensitive auditory apparatus. The signal is received or perceived if you will (hearing) but is processed (perception) differently. This is consistent with the dictionary definition which give both: awareness of the elements of the environment through physical sensation -AND-physical sensation interpreted in light of experience.

"Including psychological factors, but other factors as well. I’m surprised you left psychological factors out. "

I didn't. That's why I said hearing and perception. See above. Quit being such a Geoff and this won't be so hard. 

I am only trying to help you.

Gosh, glubson, take it easy. You’re going to burn that thang out if you’re not careful.

Guys, try to use "interpretation" instead of "perception" and it may get less tricky. Not ideal, but simpler.

n80
First, obviously, hearing is a form of perception but all perception is not hearing.

Duh?

n80
But, generally speaking ’hearing’ is simply the ability to detect vibration while perception is considered the processing and interpretation of those vibrations in the central nervous system.

>>>>You will forgive me for saying this but that is actually incorrect. Hearing cannot occur until the brain gets involved. Therefore, it’s probably best to use my interpretation - hearing is the same thing as perception of sound. A deaf man would not hear even though acoustic vibrations impinged on his ears.

I should add that hearing/perception of sound is influenced by other factors than acoustic waves impinging in the ears. Including psychological factors, but other factors as well. I’m surprised you left psychological factors out. 😬

"Gosh, people sure have a lot of pent up psychotic energy."

Remember my "professional help advised"?

It took you a while to figure it out.

As a freshman I had a very important Econ prof and his 101 class came
right after my Logic 101 class .After about a month I was in total confusion as everything I learned in Logic class was the opposite of what we were getting in Econ .I went to Econ Prof's office hour and told him exactly that .He looked at me and a sly smile spread over his face as he said:
"Yes it is a bunch of lies BUT they are agreed upon lies"  .